/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>714904

But this is made even more evident in Matthew 25:31-46. The sheeps are rewarded because they have provided for the king himself by feeding the hungry, provisioning the thirsty with water, welcoming the stranger, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, and visiting those in prison (vv. 34-40). When the righteous express their ignorance regarding their performance of these merciful deeds, inquiring about when they have done the things for which they are rewarded (vv. 37-39), the king responds, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it to me” (v. 40).43 So closely linked are Jesus and his followers that showing material kindness to Jesus’ disciples is to do the same for Jesus himself. In a very real way, then, by caring for fellow disciples, the sheep embody the secret performance of merciful deeds advocated in Matt 6:2-4, for the righteous are not even aware of the extent to which their ἐλεημοσύνη has ministered to Christ.

Conversely, the goats are sent away “into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (v. 41), cursed and banished to eternal punishment (v. 46) because of their failure to perform merciful deeds for followers of Jesus who are hungry, thirsty, strangers, naked, sick, and imprisoned. Nothing is stated or implied about the motivations of those sheep who have acted mercifully on behalf of the destitute, although the motif of divine judgment on the basis of how individuals have cared for the marginalized strongly suggests that, here as elsewhere in Matthew’s Gospel, ethics are motivated by eschatology.

The scene of the Son of Man’s judgment of the righteous and unrighteous in Matt 25:31-46 offers a fitting and evocative climax of the motif of divine reward for merciful deeds or punishment for their absence in the Gospel of Matthew. Matthew’s Gospel envisions a universal judgment of all people—including followers of Jesus—on the basis of deeds performed in this life, and an important measure of one’s righteousness is care for needy disciples of Jesus.46 In this sense, merciful action toward needy disciples in Matthew’s Gospel is primarily meritorious in the sense that practices of merciful care for the poor result in heavenly reward at the final assize, when the works of all people will be judged.

>>714906

At the same time, however, it could be argued that, because care for the poor in the Gospel of Matthew represents a significant element of Jesus’ proclamation, charity is broadly atoning in the sense that adherence to Jesus’ teaching of a better righteousness is one of several ways in which the alleviation of sin is narrated in the First Gospel. Certainly, Jesus’ identity as one who saves from sin is foundational in Matthew’s story. At a key moment in the narrative, after the record of the genealogy of “Jesus the Messiah, son of David, son of Abraham” (1:1-17), Jesus’ birth is foretold to Joseph by an angel of the Lord, and the angel’s prediction is punctuated by the declaration that Mary “will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins” (1:21). This statement in Matt 1:21, in which the main character of the story is named and his commission is identified, can be viewed as programmatic for the mission of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew.47 But what does it mean, within the literary framework of Matthew’s Gospel, for Jesus to “save his people from their sins”?

One common answer to this question connects the prediction that Jesus will save his people from their sins in Matt 1:21 with references elsewhere in the Gospel to the death of Jesus as an event that accomplishes forgiveness. The Last Supper tradition in the Gospel of Matthew, for example, records Jesus’ statement, with reference to the cup, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (26:27b-28). There is no doubt that Matt 26:28 frames Jesus’ death as a liberating, vicarious sacrifice that accomplishes the forgiveness of sins.48 Yet forgiveness of sin in the narrative of Matthew’s Gospel (as in Mark’s) is also made available before the crucifixion of Jesus takes place and often occurs or is promoted apart from, or at least without any direct connection to, the cross: John’s practice of baptism of repentance is accompanied by the confession of sins (3:1-12); Jesus instructs his disciples to pray for forgiveness of their debts (ὀφειλήματα) and notes that if they forgive others their trespasses (τὰ παραπτώματα αὐτῶν), then the heavenly Father of the disciples will forgive them, but if the disciples do not forgive others, neither will they be forgiven by the Father (6:12, 14-15; cf. 12:31-32); Jesus himself offers forgiveness of sins to a paralytic man whom he heals, a proclamation of clemency that provokes the ire of scribes who observe the episode (9:2-8); and in response to a question from Peter, Jesus opines that a member of “the church” who sins against Peter should be forgiven seventy-seven times (18:21-22), a principle that is illustrated in the ensuing parable of the unforgiving servant (18:23-35). While the cross is the ultimate means of atonement in Matthew’s Gospel, it is not the only means by which forgiveness of sin is narrated.

>>714907

To raise questions about the dynamics of forgiveness in Matthew’s Gospel is also to raise questions about the reasons that forgiveness is needed. Matthew’s Gospel reflects an understanding, common among Jews of the Second Temple period, of “sin” (ἁμαρτία) and “lawlessness” (ἀνομία) as failure to obey the teachings of Torah. In Matthew, moreover, Jesus is characterized as the authoritative teacher of Torah whose instruction intensifies (but does not mitigate or transcend) the law by summoning his followers, as participants in the kingdom of heaven, to a more faithful obedience to Torah and a surpassing righteousness than that of the scribes and Pharisees (5:17-20). In this sense, it might be argued that Jesus’ teaching “saves his people from their sins.” That is, those who follow Jesus and obey Torah as it is interpreted and, notably, summarized (22:34-39) by him are saved from their sins in the sense that adherents to Jesus’ teaching do not violate God’s will as it is revealed in Torah. In Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus’ mission of saving his people from their sins is both preventative, in that those who follow Jesus’ instruction are saved from committing future sins, and restorative, in that Jesus’ death on the cross is a sacrificial offering that brings forgiveness for transgressions of Torah that have been or will be committed.

What these would imply is that like it or not, good works do indeed factor into our Salvation in some manner at the very least. Judgement cannot merely be for just "bonus rewards" but indeed based on a person's conduct. But if this is so, Baptists are dead wrong

>>714904

I would encourage you to learn more of the Reformed. You quote Matthew 7:21-27 among the others, which states He never knew those who He rejected. This is in line with many other scriptures such as 1 John 2:19, and in the positive sense those passages that affirm the security (and likewise election, which ties into this) of the believer in Christ, such as Romans 8:28-39 and Ephesians 1:3-14. The theme being that, as God is the savior of His people, He will bring to fullness that salvation. Not making men saveable, but actually saving them as Matthew 1:21 states, and John 6 confirms.

There's no real reason for an arminian baptist to teach OSAS other than to spite catholics. The teaching in the scriptures that confirms election, and the work of salvation is worked by God solely, is the thing that then makes sense of perseverance of the saints. Sanctification then begins.

““He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” John 12:40 quoting Isaiah

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.””

And in the positive sense

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

>>714925

A short related article for whoever wishes to peruse it

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A190/is-roman-catholicism-biblical

>>714925

There is just one problem if one follows Augustine and says no one can know if they are elect, that means there is no eternal security for the believer at all, as the believer is left uncertain if he is elect or not. This is simply just touching the surface when Augustine doesnt even tell us how free choice and unmerited predestination works, apart from teasing some ideas like Divine suggestion.

Also, what you quoted from John doesnt really have to entail Calvinism because that statement is made in an era where someone like Philo can emphasize divine grace strongly, without resorting to determinism.

But even supposing predestination, I can just say works are due to Divine Grace which will then be rewarded at the final judgement where one is judged on how much Grace conforms the person to God, which doesnt change the fact that works are still contributing in some sense to Salvation, even if it is divinely empowered

>>714934

I'm not too familiar with the works of Augustine and Philo, so i don't mean to be uncaring and simply bat your words away, but 1 John 5:13-20 along with the earlier chapters on holy living imply the work of God can be seen in a believer, or the lack of it in an unbeliever. I do know catholics and orthodox place a lot of emphasis on the early church fathers, and at times use the works of philosophers to describe some things. With that said, I do believe the scriptures are the rule of faith, so i do argue the clarity of the doctrine of predestination. Not for elitism and laughing at the unsaved, but on the contrary for the further glory of God and breaking of our innate pridefulness. As the apostle Paul states it in Ephesians 1,

**Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.**

>But even supposing predestination, I can just say works are due to Divine Grace which will then be rewarded at the final judgement where one is judged on how much Grace conforms the person to God, which doesnt change the fact that works are still contributing in some sense to Salvation, even if it is divinely empowered

I won't agree with the latter part, but I do agree and amplify the first part. I think the works we work are also given to us by God (ephesians 2:10) to conform us to Christ and sanctify.

>>714939

That came out horribly formatted, forgot the ** on the end, sorry about that

>>714939

The problem is to argue that one can know he is elect shows precisely that sense of arrogance which is inadvitable considering one is seeing himself as higher than many people, even if what is done is by someone else. The Gospels never said one can know who is elect. This is why we are told to examine ourselves. Had such assurance be clear and possible, Scripture wont tell us to do that. But these examinations arent the same as the Protestant practical syllogism either, because it doesnt give any sure fire way to test to see if we meet the criteria of "belief", this simply tells us to exercise vigilance. Hence this is contrast with the Reformed view, where people look inwards for assurance, rather than the dialectic of looking outwards which then leads inwards as Grace guides and comforts the soul.

Because we cannot know if we are elect and because Scripture espouse not determinism by indicating mercy and desire for repentance through God's patience, this combined with Matthew's view of eschatological judgement entail that our wills are truly working and must navigate, even if it is led by Grace.

>>714947

We'll have to agree to disagree, I don't find what you say matching what is seen, but I hope you find something of use in the links and writing I posted. All the best to you.

>>714948

I was raised Reformed Baptist

>>714950

Your point?

>>714954

My point is I was raised Reformed Baptist, looked at the Bible and Church Fathers. Realized how shallow what I seen in church is

OSAS and sola fide destroyed

Great post

animefag what do you get out of this aren't you a atheist?

>>718472

>t. Baptist