/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>713639

Sophia isn’t the Holy Spirit. She is lady Wisdom and Mary. Sophia is the mother of the Logos and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is the Logos. Therefore Mary is Sophia. The divine feminine is Wisdom. She is NOT the Holy Spirit.

>>713648

>although according to Irenaeus the Holy Spirit is Wisdom.

Ironic considering calling the Holy Spirit feminine is a HUGE heresy.

>>713651

Not the human Mary. That’s like saying Jesus’ human form is Logos, which is true in some senses, but talking in a philosophical sense about the feet of the Logos makes no sense.

Wisdom is anthropomorphized in the Old Testament as a woman but that doesn't mean Wisdom is actually a sapient entity. It's supposed to emphasize that obtaining wisdom is desirable, by depicting wisdom as an attractive woman. So nop, wisdom isn't the Holy Spirit, nor is it the pre-incarnate Jesus nor is it Mary. It's an attribute.

>>713651

Jesus Christ is the first-born of all creatures, before all creatures. So, St. Mary's role in salvation history is quite bigger than you presume.

>>713648

>the pre-incarnate Christ was a woman

hmmmmm

Now that I consider it, this is a pretty hard theological discussion, so let's delve in!

If the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity that changes the imperfect will of man to the perfected Will of God and Jesus Christ (to the point that the will of the man the Holy Spirit inhabits is now divinely inspired), then Wisdom is something that enlightens the intellect of man, but is distinct from the divine inspiration of will like the Holy Spirit.

So, I'd say Wisdom is distinct, as an entity, from the Holy Trinity, but is an implicit part and gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm only supposing this off the top of my head, if this in conflict with any piece of Sacred Scripture, please correct me and I will bless you for it.

>>713647

This sounds pretty accurate to me.

>>713708

> Origen says

is origen a saint?

>>713711

answer the question. perhaps, if you choose to answer honestly, it may weaken your argument?

>>713718

Origen died a heretic. In either case, the idea that Wisdom is implicit and part of the Holy Spirit and Logos is obviously licit, but the idea that Christ has a feminine aspect is heretical. Christ is true man and true God, not also true woman.

I've been looking up some stuff about the topic, and apparently there's a bunch of new-age, gnostic, pagan stuff on this topic.

I found this from a Fr. William Most:

"Many feminists notice what is true, that towards the end of the OT, Wisdom was personified - but that was only a rhetorical personification. Surely the OT writers never thought of her as a separate person, still less as a goddess. They notice that Sophia is feminine -- what ignorance! Yes, it is grammatically feminine in Latin, Greek and in Hebrew -- but that grammatical gender has nothing whatsoever to do with real sex: it is only a grammatical convention."

http://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/SOPHIA.TXT

https://www.catholicherald.com/News/Noted_Theologian,_Author_Fr__William_Most_Dies/

>>713732

>But God has no gender, he is outside of space and time.

So you must admit that Jesus Christ does not have a feminine aspect.

>Sophia is simply another title for Christ in his person hood. Sophia is the second person of the Trinity.

Sophia is the rhetorical title for the Wisdom of God, whom is Christ. You're not wrong, but you must clarify the issue without sounding like a looney-toon.

>You seem to be implying in your statement that you believe God to be anthropomorphic, which is a disgusting Mormon tier heresy and which I say to you, recant!

?

>>713738

>If we're going off of your logic, then neither the entire Godhead has anything masculine.

Of course it does, the Creator/Creation paradigm that is unique to Judaism/Christianity is also tied into the masculinity of God's relationship to Creation.

If God were to be apart of Creation, giving birth to the rest of the Creation, then it would be a feminine relationship.

>Stop trying to twist my words.

>God is now an it according to your logic.

You should pick up a book on Catholic theology, I recommend Fr. Copleston's series.

>You sound like a heretic.

Quit larping.

>>713725

>Christ is true man and true God, not also true woman.

I find it interesting the Nicaean Creed says "homo factus est" and not "vir factus est."

>>713764

>Yes but you see what your faulty logic did there.

No, I really do not. Jesus Christ does not have a feminine aspect, nor does God the Father or the Holy Spirit. Creation ex Nihilo is a purely masculine relationship between the Creator and Creation.

>God does not have a gender.

Agreed.

>However God ought to be refered to only by masculine pronouns.

Yes, but not simply because you "ought to", but as a full expression between God and His Creation. There is no femininity in the equation of God and creation here. Woman was taken from Adam's Rib, and God created Adam out of dust, or nothing (for the sake of the conversation here).

>No I don't read antichrist heretical material.

That's a slur against an accomplished theologian.

>>713772

well, philosopher/historian at least

>>713647

fpbp

There is no divine feminine, God is masculine. He reveals this countless times in the Bible.

>>713639

>(1) and done

Yup

>>713772

>God created Adam out of dust

Proving even more that God should be called Father, since it was from Mother Earth that he created him. this could even be seen as proof that paganism is a corruption of the True Faith now called Christianity, since Uranus and Gaia could be seen as being a corruption of the Father in the Heavens and the Earth beneath being the “parents” of humanity, although of course only God has consciousness

>>713708

>>713711

>>713718

>I can't find anything that supports Christ appearing in female form, but look at these pretty pictures!

hmmmmmmmmmmm

>>713733

Um, no sweety.

>O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, "even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,' and ye would not!