/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Are you talking about the bread of life discourse? Not really sure what you mean because I didn't calvinism addressed this much other than the standard Protestant view.

>>711359

>>711366

It's hard to make sense of what the OP was really meaning, with multiple things happening in John 6 and all, but I'll assume that he was talking about the bread of life. This passage is key for understanding the importance of and the meaning behind the sacrament of eucharist.

t. A Lutheran

No, not the Eucharistic part. The preface to that:

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

>>711398

oh sure, well for catholics it's single predestination. it makes clear sense to me, God is omniscient, he knows who will persevere to the end and who won't. we also believe that we can only even come to God if God calls us first, as He is the primary author of all things.

This is different from calvinist double predestination which basically says (correct me if i'm wrong) that there's nothing you can do to co-operate even with being saved, or you can't even reject it. So either you're one of the people God picked or you aren't, end of story.

Single predestination means that God gives sufficient grace to all people to be saved, but some people choose to reject it, and that's why they aren't saved. Double means yeah God didn't pick you so tough luck buddy enjoy hell.

>>711398

…However, Jesus won't override your free will and keep you prisoner, so if you wish to leave Jesus, you can.

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The key verse being 44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

>>711405

Yes, the thing that Calvinists believe is that this refers to double predestination, meaning that some people are given "irresistible grace" their whole life, so they can do nothing but follow God essentially, and others don't get it and that's the end of that. Catholics do believe there is irresistible grace but that's only baptism (and I suppose when you're an infant, because if you're an adult you already had to comply with some grace before to get there). After that it's called efficacious grace that God gives us to continue to persevere and it's up to us to co-operate with that grace or to reject it.

The idea that no one can snatch the ones out of His hand refers to that God anyways knows who the people who will comply with Him are - it refers to his omniscience, not that He is somehow holding people hostage and forcing them to comply.

>>711402

>that there's nothing you can do to co-operate even with being saved, or you can't even reject it

Well, that's what the text says

<All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

>>711405

>Jesus won't override your free will

Correct, Jesus doesn't "override" your free will, He restores it to a state of freedom and holiness.

>if you wish to leave Jesus

None of Christ's sheep wish to leave Him, because they have been set free from sin. They are slaves of righteousness.

>>711493

>meaning that some people are given "irresistible grace" their whole life, so they can do nothing but follow God essentially, and others don't get it and that's the end of that

Double predestination means that God is sovereign over the process of salvation. It means that if you're saved, it isn't because you met some condition to earn it, there was nothing so special about you, the only reason you are saved is because God gave you mercy you did not deserve. Single predestination is the idea that the only thing God really "predestines" is the task humans have to perform to be saved. So in this synergistic framework God's only choice is which special group gets to be saved of themselves.

>Catholics do believe there is irresistible grace but that's only baptism

Considering the term irresistible grace refers to the monergistic doctrine of regeneration, "Catholics" do not believe in it.

>it's up to us to co-operate with that grace or to reject it

That isn't what efficacious means

>The idea that no one can snatch the ones out of His hand refers to that God anyways knows who the people who will comply with Him are

Read straight into the text from an external tradition. What it actually meant when Jesus said it is that He is such a perfect savior that no one who receives His justifying grace shall ever fall away and lose it.

>>711359

>Καὶ ἔλεγεν, Διὰ τοῦτο εἴρηκα ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με, ἐὰν μὴ ᾖ δεδομένον αὐτῷ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρός.

>He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

>implying there's another way to read a quite straight-forward statement

Why kick the goads, OP?

>>711488

Yeah, this. Anyone explain this in a noncalvinist way?

>>712854

This is called "prevenient grace" and isn't specific to Calvinism.

>>711632

sorry, i used wrong terms which seems like they are used in protestanism/calvinism. i don't know why i remembered those terms.

i did mean to say sanctifying grace and actual grace. i think i need to re-read some more, but I do believe part of it was saying that your initial baptism is "irresistible", but anyways the grace you need to keep co-operating with is actual grace.

no catholic believes you are saved because you deserve it.

>Single predestination is the idea that the only thing God really "predestines" is the task humans have to perform to be saved.

That's totally false. No catholic believes that. Where are you getting this nonsense from? No one can come to God without God calling them first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination#Catholicism

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

So are you OSAS? So what if I get "saved" and then start raping and murdering people for the rest of my life, say that I don't believe in God at all and become a satanist, I'm still going to Heaven, or are you going to say "ohhh he really wasn't actually saved, muh true scotsman?"

>>711402

>there's nothing you can do to co-operate even with being saved,

Right, only God saves, and no man comes to the Son accept the Father which sent Him drags him.

>or you can't even reject it.

Kinda wrong, while God strongly saves the elect, He simply permits the non-elect to resist Him unto death. This also does not mean He has no prevenient work towards the non-elect, just that He permits them to resist.

Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."