/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>710072

It's rocked me pretty badly too. However in as much as the malefactors seem to hate the tradition of the church, and in some instances, the very word of God, I feel like what I love about Christianity is under attack from these bad actors.

You don't see it like this anon?

>>710072

Seems like a poor hill to die considering their other history

>Not the cadaver trial

>Not the Avignon papacy

>Not the many years with multiple popes

>Not the multiple popes that were blatant hedonists and sinners

>Not the many periods of extreme decadence in the church

>Not the times popes would damn entire kingdoms because he was mad at the king

>Not the popes that were borderline heretics

>No, a small cabal of homosexuals that infiltrated the church, is where I draw the line

>>710078

How can you forgive someone who isn't sorry?

>>710080

Like Christ forgave the men who nailed Him to the Cross. You realize that they don't know what they're doing.

But it doesn't matter even if they know what they're doing. First of all it is a commandment from God to forgive, second, what good can come from your hatred of them? When you hate then you are slaves to the person you hate, but when you love then you are a servant of God and nothing can touch you.

If you want God to grant you victory then follow His orders.

>>710072

>Why would God allow the Church itself to be an institution of abuse and misconduct?

End Times is one possible answer, or God permits it because the members of the Church thoroughly failed and God is letting it all fall apart so that we will have a future opportunity to reset everything. It's hard to tell whether we're actually in the end times or it's just one of those weird centuries where everything has to fall apart before it can get better. Stand firm in the faith and persevere through these hardships.

>>710080

How can you love your enemy?

>>710072

>Why would God allow the Church itself to be an institution of abuse and misconduct?

I can't find it at the moment, maybe someone else will know what I'm talking about and link it, but there was an excellent sermon on the Sensus Fidelium channel about how this current scandal is a deliberate punishment by God to purge the church of these people. It's biblical that when Gods people stray from him he eventually turns his back on them and allows them to face the consequences of their actions.

>Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

>For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

>And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

God is allowing this to occur as punishment. He is scourging the Church for it's unfaithfulness, for embracing modernism, for allowing unbelievers to enter the priesthood and spout blasphemies against Him. When the Israelites were conquered by Babylon some of them might have wondered "Why would God let this happen to us!?". We know why God let it happen. Because God punishes disobedience.

It's extremely difficult for Roman Catholics to dismiss years of being told that there is no Salvation outside their ecclesia, since it's their very souls on the line. So no matter what wrong it does they have to turn a blind eye to the abuses, like a broken spirited wife who sacrifices her children to a husband's perversions.

Yet it's unfair to say that they willingly and wilfully remain in ignorance, deny reality and suppress the truth in unrighteousness simply because they believe that it's right to remain in such an obviously corrupt body, for on top of this, the RC system offers them license to do whatever a sinful heart desires, so long as one defends the evil perpetrated by priests and Papacy. And whereas true Christianity is marked by a change of heart in the individual so profound as to be recognisably supernatural, meeting the much more rigorous demands of Christ than any mere lip service could render, the Roman Catholic religion offers man something to boast in against his God, a series of religious rituals that are as foul before the Lord as filthy rags, but which give the semblance of piety to equally fallen men.

This inflating the natural man's pride gives him a false sense of security which should be belied by the actions of that same church which time and time again throughout history proves itself no authority on righteousness, But since the appeal is made to all that fallen man desires in his war against God, she remains enthroned and full of arrogant boasting against the Almighty.

>>710096

Found it. Watch this it explains it.

>"What are we saying? We are saying the crisis in the church is a penalty. It is a chastisement which is not simply being permitted but positively willed by God. It is a chastisement designed to bring us out of deep sin." - 17:32 into the video

>>710072

>The rot of the Catholic Church has rendered me incapable of considering myself a Christian

It's good to know that despite having most of the apostles run for the hill after the Crucifixion, church fathers getting slaughtered left and right, near civil warfare between Trinitarians and competing groups, heathen barbarians at the gates of Rome and Constantinople (where they sometimes got in), multiple schisms, the Western Church having to bounce between Italy and France, the Eastern Church getting treated like a pinata by every heretic in the known world, Rome being run alternatively by merchants and fags even before the Reformation, Soviet infiltration of certain Eastern Orthodox groups, prosperity gospel, fake mega churches, government-run congregations to promote divorce or gay sex, continental Freemasons running the Vatican Bank, half a century of boy rape by fag priests and bishops who are also possibly Satanists if the Vatican's exorcists are anything to go by, and another Eastern schism on the horizon over some dreary patch of frozen tundra that noone cares about, that you basically lose faith at the exact moment the Pope sort of comes out of the closet as mainly caring about worldly politics and PR than the mental and spiritual health of abuse victims.

>Yes but Christ’s Church is canonically supposed to be representative of his will on Earth. Why would God allow the Church itself to be an institution of abuse and misconduct?

It's up to people themselves make sure that affairs are ordered, and that they don't damn themselves to Hell. Man has free will, he's not a marionette for God to play with. This also extends to His shepherds, and if corruption occurs it is up to the laity to purify it. It is always the laity that sticks up for the institutions and traditions of their church first before their leaders in times of great crisis. These leaders are in extreme spiritual peril, even if they do not realize it or care about it, for they are the largest stumbling blocks.

And since we have free will, you too are free to reject Christ because of Satanic clerics in sheep's clothing, just as you would now be free to fight for the Antichrist in the final time when he fully reveals himself to the world. After all, you are apparently on that other one's team in the first place, at least it seems so when you have such little faith in the Lord that you care more about the dirty clothes He is wearing than what the clothes are covering.

I would rather do some laundry, if you want to help out, that is up to you.

>>710078

There is a great difference between one cleric sinning but hiding it and another one preaching the bad as good. The first exists in the Church since its foundation. Anathema to the second.

Everything bad going on in the church is directly against the church, its an affirmation of the righteousness of Christ and his church. You think the homosexuals in the clergy believe in the faith? The church? God will sort these people out, but what will you do? Follow Christ and trust in him, even when everyone else has abondoned him, take up your cross and forget about politics, change begins with you

>>710098

>the RC system offers them license to do whatever a sinful heart desires

No it doesn't, mortal sin will drag you to hell. The Catholic church is the only church that affirms the teachings of Christ completely regardless if its uncomfortable or doesn't sell, osas is not a part of the rc "system".

>>710124

It goes directly against what Jesus taught to leave the church because of leaders who aren't practicing what they preach.

>Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The authority of Priests is tied to their position, not how they act. Even Jesus told people to listen to the Pharisees because of their place as priests when they were corrupt. We must live as Catholics according to what Catholic dogma really is, not how it's practiced by Priests who are most likely crypto-atheists.

>>710130

>This is one of the thousands of reasons why we christians don't follow what Cathodoxes churches say, and focus what God & the apostles intended as written in their words

But you do follow what they say because you use a biblical canon that was discerned by the Cathodox church. If you don't trust their authority then why do you accept a canon that was established by them? How do you know the Gospel of Thomas wasn't inspired but the evil Cathodox church didn't add it for malicious reasons?

>people sin

>therefor God isn't real

This is even more of a brainlet position than "why is there evil" skeptics

>>710126

>>710124

It's just more fundamental than that, you (not you specifically but rather OP) deny Christ in general because you are under certain delusions regarding agency and divine intervention in the world.

It also demonstrates OP's lack of knowledge on (or acceptance of) scripture, otherwise he would be well aware of the dire state of the faith - and many other things - towards the end. Either he hasn't read the prophetic sections, let alone early church writings on those matters…or he just simply doesn't accept the documentation having read it; which ultimately means in that case that he doesn't believe what's in the Bible and probably never did. And we know where that last point leaves you.

>>710151

Just to clarify on the "divine intervention" bit; it certainly happens, there's no denying it at all, but God tends to use a softer touch than the kind OP seems to expect.

>>710072

The night has to pass, brother.

The Church has seen worse in history. Sodomites and modernists will reap what they sow.

>>710080

>How can you forgive someone who isn't sorry?

Like Jesus?

>>710098

Amen

>>710136

Dishonest. Read the ante-nicene fathers. The canon was decided by the Holy Ghost in the hearts of the believers of Christ long before there was anything with resembled the “Catholic” Church.

>>710267

>the ante-nicene fathers

Many of which reject the canonicity of Revelation while considering things like 1 Enoch or Tobit to be canonical?

You're the dishonest one. The 66 books canon as we know it today was not universally accepted until the 5th century in the West and the 6th century in the East.

>>710269

So, the “Catholic” church decides what is Gods word, not God?

Just because not everyone was one hundred percent correct does not mean there was no canon in the church. Any saved person can know that Revelation is the word of God because Gods Apostle John wrote it, and it bears the same style as Johns other entries in the Holy scripture.

Many people in the ante-nicene period called themselves Christian, and many were and many were not. But a real Christian guided by the Holy Ghost may know the truth themselves. Do you deny that the Holy Ghost guides Christians to all truth?

>>710273

I'm not a Catholic.

However, the Church was instituted by Christ and built upon by the apostles and their successors, the bishops, to be the resting place of the Holy Spirit and the source of grace for the world. I don't see what's shocking about the canon being developped over time. It was developped over time for a few centuries before the advent of Christ, it was also developped over time after His advent.

Texts were recognized as canonical based on their liturgical use in the tradition and their enduring popularity.

>Just because not everyone was one hundred percent correct does not mean there was no canon in the church.

This is the same argument Catholics use for papal supremacy - "it's not because not everyone agreed with it that it isn't true and apostolic". I'd be very careful treading those grounds.

That aside, obviously there was a canon. In fact there were, and today there still are, several canons. Different Church Fathers and local councils recognized different canons, and today there are several different canons, whether this is across the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox traditions. The Bible is first and foremost a collection of liturgical texts and the cornerstone of the holy tradition, where all dogma is contained as it was revealed. Every canon was shaped by the local church's liturgical needs, including the well known 66 books canon (which is used by Protestants, of course, but also by the Eastern Orthodox of Slavic tradition).

>Any saved person can know that Revelation is the word of God because Gods Apostle John wrote it, and it bears the same style as Johns other entries in the Holy scripture.

Your argument is "I know it is objectively true because I feel it". This is a very very dangerous argument - what makes your experience more objective and correct than that of the Arians, the Nestorians, the Macedonians, the Monophysites, the Montanists, the Jehova's Witnesses, the Mormons, the Gnostics, etc.?

>Do you deny that the Holy Ghost guides Christians to all truth?

I deny that this mean the scriptures interpret themselves, at least. I also deny that every Christian in history who didn't recognize the 66 books canon was not a real Christian or did not have the Holy Spirit (and that, similarly, every Christian who recognizes the 66 books canon has the Holy Spirit).

>>710273

I'll also add that the tradition of the Church figuing out the canon, rather than it being divinely revealed from the beginning, is already there in 2 Peter. Peter invokes his authority to recognize the epistles of Peter as scriptures, and his authority to interpret them correctly.

>>710072

>Christ’s Church is canonically supposed to be representative of his will on Earth.

Don't focus on the physical church, but on the Living Church (which is present in Protestantism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy alike). If the hypocrisy around you makes you sick, then maybe you need to search for a new environment. Ask God what He wants you to do.

>>710072

>Because that's not "THE" Church

>also, man has free will

It's cool though, just need a few more decades of not interfering and the catholic "church" will be destroyed by the greatest threat it ever had: itself.

>>710136

Cool, may I see the transcripts from that determination? It was in 1825…

That said:

>what is the intention of a "canon" in terms of biblical text?

>how can you justify standardizing and relying on scripture as means of rejecting heresy when that's not your "church's" official stance?

>>710169

You won't ever wake from this.

ALL CATHOLIC PRIESTS ARE BAD!

Have you ever been in Poland? Priests are based there. You have it bad. Not the whole church.

What country do you live in?

>>710275

Did Christ promise to send the Spirit of Truth to the saved or did he not?

>>710074

>>710072

It's simple, they don't represent me. Those bad peopel are kept in because of other bad people (ie The Gay mafia).

Rage quitting the Catholic Church over artistically questionable Papal accoutrements is nothing but a sign of stage 4 Ultramonatism

This is exactly what the devils wants

>devil inserts evil into faithful Church

>good people leave church

>evil wins

>the devil is relentlessly attacking the Church

>woow Christ said this would happen but I can't handle being a Christian guys

Are you serious?

>Vision of Pope Leo XII

>Marian Prophecies

>>710091

Acknowledge that it's merely their own fallen nature.

>Father forgive them for they do not know what they do

Luke 23:34