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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: 573db5198e009c5⋯.jpg (72.39 KB, 643x576, 643:576, 1489925297121.jpg)

159191  No.707744

20 Counterarguments Against An Original Papacy:

1 The Book of Acts shows a twelve-fold collegium acting in consensus.

2 The Apostle Paul is called and ordained independently from this original apostolic collegium, denies that his authority derives from there, and claims to have a parallel vocation and authority to that of Peter (see especially Gal. 2:8).

3 The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 shows a conciliar model of church authority with James holding the position of council president.

4 Paul selected successors directly and ordained them to ministerial positions without subordinating himself or them to any higher ecclesiastical authority (see his relationship with Timothy).

5 Bishops and elders are the same office in the New Testament, and they are local church officers (Acts 20:17; Titus 1:5, 7; 1 Peter 5:2).

6 Paul left a group of bishops in charge of the church at Ephesus (Acts 20:17, 28).

7 With the exception of the letters of Ignatius, all of the post-Biblical 1st century literature continues to use the names “bishop” and “elder” for the same office.

8 The First Epistle of Clement says that bishops are appointed “with the consent of the whole church” (1 Clement 44:2). This will later be repeated by Hippolytus of Rome (Apostolic Tradition part 1, section 2.1-5) and Cyprian (Epistle 51.8, 67.5).

9 Ignatius does speak of a bishop standing over the rest of the elders, but his bishop is still a local pastoral figure, one who is instructed to be present at baptisms and eucharists, to oversee weddings, and to know “all men by name” (Letter to Polycarp 4.2).

10 Ignatius gives some reason to think that his position on the bishop was understood as a historical innovation in his own day, and he says that he was taught his view through a charismatic revelation (Letter to the Philadelphians 7:1-2).

11 Both Ignatius and Polycarp deny that they exert the same kind of authority as the apostles (Ignatius, Letter to the Romans 4:3; Polycarp, Letter to the Philippians 3:1-2).

12 Writing around the end of the 2nd century, Irenaeus still calls “bishops” by the name of “presbyters,” though he indicates that the bishop stands over the presbyters in a leading capacity.

13 Irenaeus is the first to argue that the church of Rome was founded by Peter, but he actually argues that it was founded by both Peter and Paul (Against Heresies, 3.3.2).

14 Lists of bishops and their successors began to be written around the end of the 2nd century, but an important contradiction arises as to who Peter ordained as his immediate successor. Irenaeus states that Peter first ordained Linus as his successor and that Linus was followed by Cletus who was then followed by Clement (Against Heresies 3.3.3). Tertullian, writing not long after Irenaeus, states that Peter ordained Clement as his successor (Prescription Against Heretics 32). This gave rise to conflicting lists of bishops which Epiphanius, writing in the fourth century, harmonizes by saying that Peter ordained multiple bishops over the same churches at the same time (Panarion, Book 1, Section 2, 27.6.1-6). Thus when evidence begins to arise for a singular episcopal leader at Rome, it is soon accompanied by contradictory evidence.

15 Tertullian says that contradictory traditions should be prejudged as false (Prescription Against Heretics 21, 28). He says that the rule of faith for proving something to be “apostolic” is that it agrees with the whole church.

16 Tertullian argues that Rome has a position of primacy because Peter and Paul were martyred there (Prescription Against Heretics 36, Against Marcion 4.5). Later in Tertullian’s life, he explicitly rejected the claim that Rome inherited Peter’s apostolic power (On Modesty, chapt 21).

17 Cyprian argues that all bishops equally possess the episcopal authority of Peter (Epistle 26.1 ANF citation, Unity of the Church 4).

18 Cyprian argues that distant church courts should not overturn the judgments of local church courts (Epistle 51.14, ANF citation).

19 Cyprian argues that church-wide consent is the highest authority and that even the bishop of Rome should submit to the judgment of the whole church, which is discerned through councils (Epistle 30.1; 51.4-5, 8 ANF citation).

20 Augustine, writing about 150 years later, restates Cyprian’s position on the authority of councils and says that writing of a bishop (even the bishop of Rome) cannot require another bishop to change his practice. Only a plenary council can resolve disputes over tradition (On Baptism 2.3.4).

If you want to know how to arrive to this conclusion there are 5 articles: https://calvinistinternational.com/2018/09/19/the-leadership-of-the-catholic-church-now-vs-then-pt-6/

e5bbe2  No.707746

R*me BTFO! How will Babylonians ever recover?


d06de1  No.707758

File: aa81008a74469c2⋯.jpg (189.29 KB, 768x1005, 256:335, _20170704_124827.JPG)

>>707744

You got us, protodox. How will we ever recover??!??


6a6119  No.707762

>>707758

>one misinterpreted verse vs the whole Bible and all of the Church fathers


159191  No.707766

>>707758

Nice try, unfortunately we have seen those arguments a million times. Read that verse in the Catena Aurea of Thomas Aquinas and you will see many Church Fathers agreeing that the rock is the confession. And that's on the commentary of the main theologian of the Catholic Church…


d06de1  No.707769

>>707762

>Church fathers

>aka Tertullian after he became a heretic

O i am laffin

>>707766

>And that's on the commentary of the main theologian of the Catholic Church…

Thank you for your insight on the dogma of Aquinas Infallibility


34035b  No.707771


159191  No.707790

>>707769

>not addressing any of the arguments

Also

"Doctor of the Church (Latin doctor "teacher") is a title given by the Catholic Church to saints whom they recognize as having been of particular importance, particularly regarding their contribution to theology or doctrine."

But as usual it's better to resort to legality stuff like 'n-not ex cathedra!' 'n-not dogma heh'


d06de1  No.707805

>>707790

Let's read more Aquinas, shall we?

Contra Errores Graecorum, Chap. XXXII : That the Roman Pontiff is the first and greatest among all bishops.

>The error of those who say that the Vicar of Christ, the Pontiff of the Roman Church, does not have a primacy over the universal Church is similar to the error of those who say that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son. For Christ himself, the Son of God, consecrates and marks her as his own with the Holy Spirit, as it were with his own character and seal, as the authorities already cited make abundantly clear. And in like manner the Vicar of Christ by his primacy and foresight as a faithful servant keeps the Church Universal subject to Christ. It must, then, be shown from texts of the aforesaid Greek Doctors that the Vicar of Christ holds the fullness of power over the whole Church of Christ.

>Now, that the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter and Vicar of Christ, is the first and greatest of all the bishops, is expressly stated in the canon of the Council which reads: “According to the Scriptures and definition of the canon we venerate the most holy bishop of old Rome as the first and greatest of all the bishops.”

>This, moreover, accords well with Sacred Scripture, which both in the Gospels and in the Acts of the Apostles (cf. Matt. 16:18; John 21:17; Acts 1: 15-16, 2:14, 15:17) assigns first place among the Apostles to Peter. Hence, Chyrsostom commenting on the text of Matthew !8: 1: The discoples came to Jesus and asked, who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, says: “For they had created in their minds a human stumbling block, which they could no longer keep to themselves; nor did they control their hearts’s pride, because they saw that Peter was preferred to them and was given a more honorable place.”

ibid, Chap. XXXIII : That the same Pontiff has universal jurisdiction over the entire Church of Christ.

>It is also shown that the Vicar of Christ has universal jurisdiction over the entire Church of Christ. For it is recorded of the Council of Chalcedon how the whole synod acclaimed Pope Leo: “Long live Leo, the most holy, apostolic, and ecumenical, that is, universal patriarch.”

>And Chrysostom commenting on Matthew says: “The power which is of the Father and of the Son himself the Son conferred worldwide on Peter and gave a mortal man authority over all things in heaven, giving him the keys in order that he might extend the Church throughout the world.” And in homily 85 on John: “He allocated James a determined territory, but he appointed Peter master and teacher of the whole world.” Again, commenting on the Acts of the Apostles: “Not like Moses over one people, but throughout the whole world Peter received from the Son power over all those who are His sons.”

>This is also taught on the authority of Holy Scripture. For Christ entrusted hi sheep to the care of Peter without restriction, when he said in the last chapter of John (21:15): Feed my sheep; and in John 10:16: That there might be one fold and one shepherd.

ibid, Chap. XXXIV : That the same possesses in the Church a fullness of power.

>It is also established from the texts of the aforesaid Doctors that the Roman Pontiff possesses a fullness of power in the Church. For Cyril, the Patriarch of Alexandria, says in his Thesaurus: “As Christ coming forth from Israel as leader and sceptre of the Church of the Gentiles was granted by the Father the fullest power over every principality and power and whatever is that all might bend the knee to him, so he entrusted most fully the fullest power to Peter and his successors.” And again: “To no one else but Peter and to him alone Christ gave what is his fully.” And further on: “The feet of Christ are his humanity, that is, the man himself, to whom the whole Trinity gave the fullest power, whom one of the Three assumed in the unity of his person and lifted up on high to the Father above every principality and power, so that all the angels of God might adore him (Heb. 1:6); which whole and entire he has left in sacrament and power to Peter and to his Church.”

>And Chrysostom says to the Bulgarian delegation speaking in the person of Christ: “Three times I ask you whether you love me, because you denied me three times out of fear and trepidation. Now restored, however, lest the brethren believe you to have lost the grace and authority of the keys, I now confirm in you that which is fully mine, because you love me in their presence.”

>This is also taught on the authority of Scripture. For in Matthew 16: 19 the Lord said to Peter without restriction: Whatsoever you shall bind upon earth shall be bound in heaven.


d06de1  No.707806

>>707805

ibid, Chap. XXXV : That he enjoys the same power conferred on Peter by Christ.

>It is also shown that Peter is the Vicar of Christ and the Roman Pontiff is Peter’s successor enjoying the same power conferred on Peter by Christ. For the canon of the Council of Chalcedon says: “If any bishop is sentenced as guilty of infamy, he is free to appeal the sentence to the blessed bishop of old Rome, whom we have as Peter the rock of refuge, and to him alone, in the place of God, with unlimited power, is granted the authority to hear the appeal of a bishop accused of infamy in virtue of the keys given him by the Lord.” And further on: “And whatever has been decreed by him is to be held as from the vicar of the apostolic throne.”

>Likewise, Cyril, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, says, speaking in the person of Christ” “You for a while, but I without end will be fully and perfectly in sacrament and authority with all those whom I shall put in your place, just as I am with you.” And Cyril of Alexandria in his Thesaurus says that the Apostles “in the Gospels and Epistles have affirmed in all their teaching that Peter and his Church are in the place of the Lord, granting him participation in every chapter and assembly, in every election and proclamation of doctrine.” And further on: “To him, that is, to Peter, all by divine ordinance bow the head and the rulers of the world obey him as the Lord himself.” And Chrysostom, speaking in the person of Christ, says: “Feed my sheep (John 21:17), that is, in my place be in charge of your brethren.”

ibid, Chap. XXXVI : That to him belongs the right of deciding what pertains to faith.'

>It is also demonstrated that to the aforesaid Pontiff belongs the right of deciding what pertains to faith. For Cyril in his Thesaurus says: “Let us remain as members in our head on the apostolic throne of the Roman Pontiffs, from whom it is our duty to seek what we must believe and what we must hold.” And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals says: “All the ends of the earth which have sincerely received the Lord and Catholics everywhere professing the true faith look to the Church of the Romans as to the sun, and receive from it the light of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith.” Rightly so, for Peter is recorded as the first to have, while the Lord was enlightening him, confessed the faith perfectly when he said to him (Matt. 16:16): You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And hence the Lord also said to him (Lk. 22:32): I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith may not fail.”

ibid, Chap. XXXVII : That he is the superior of the other patriarchs.'

>It is also clear that he is the superior of the other patriarchs from this statement of Cyril: “It is his”, namely, of the Roman Pontiffs of the apostolic throne, “exclusive right to reprove, correct, enact, resolve, dispose and bind in the name of Him who established it.” And Chrysostom commenting on the Acts of the Apostles says that “Peter is the most holy summit of the blessed apostolic choir, the good shepherd.”

>And this also is manifest on the authority of the Lord, in Luke 22:32 saying: “You, once converted, confirm your brethren.”

ibid, Chap. XXXVIII : That to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation.'

>It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. For Cyril says in his Thesaurus: “Therefore, brethren, if ee imitate Christ so as to hear his voice remaining in the Church of Peter and so as not be puffed up by the wind of pride, lest perhaps because of our quarrelling the wily serpent drive us from paradise as once he did Eve.” And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals says: “The Church united and established upon the rock of Peter’s confession we call according to the decree of the Savior the universal Church, wherein we must remain for the salvation of our souls and wherein loyal to his faith and confession we must obey him.”


9fede9  No.707812

File: 65359f521ac260e⋯.jpeg (45.37 KB, 250x272, 125:136, 002A1629-DFC1-4855-BC47-E….jpeg)

>>707805

>The error of those who say that the Vicar of Christ, the Pontiff of the Roman Church, does not have a primacy over the universal Church is similar to the error of those who say that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son.


d91bd5  No.707819

>calvinist

Now this is epic.


fa3f14  No.707846

>1

Acts 10&15

>2

Galatians 1 and Acts 13

>3

Acts 15 says otherwise. Also you are contradicting your own (1) point.

>4

After Acts 13.

>5

There were twofold other already. That terminology developed in the East in next 50 years we see from Ignatian letters. West was late to the party.

>6

From all of Asia.

>7

You do know that there literally FOUR corpuses of documents form 1st century? Two of which being moral catechesis, and Clement's letter as monoepiscopal as Ignatian ones?

>8

Discipline=/=doctrine.

>9

He literally cals Bishop God-Father on Earth.

>10

Literally opposite is drawn from the text.

>11

And noone here claims that Bishops are equal to apostles. They are their successors. But Ignatius is clear that they have more authority than anyone.

>12

See above (5).

>13

Ignatius alredy done it, and arguably Clement too.

>14

Peter chose his successors. And personally delivered them into episcopate. And all witnesses claim that they ruled after one another, i.e. in monoepiscopate.

>15

So that Pope is succeors of Peter.

>16

There is no "St" before Tertullian for a reason - he was heretic latter in life. And he was pissed that whole of Church belived that Rome inherited Peter’s apostolic power.

>17

>18

>19

Cyprian's Ep. 45, 74, 72, 54, 51, 39 give adherence to Catholic doctrine of Papacy.

>20

ROME LOCUTA CAUSA FINITA

If you want to know how not to be a total ahistorical faggot there are few articles:

http://practicalapologetics.blogspot.com/2013/07/early-church-fathers-on-peter-being.html

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num18.htm

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num16.htm

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a122.htm

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num44.htm

OP will always be faggot though.


054c48  No.707850

>>707744

1)Yeah

2)Which raised great suspicion, even as a guy that was living at the same time as the rest.

3)yeah

4)He was the high ecclesiastical authority. Even greek catholics don't have to register their appointed bishops through the Pope, first.

5,6,7,9,12)Here's the cool thing. Basically, in early christendom, the apostles planted bishops in every place, for various reasons, that did the sacraments, with presbyters as sort of "prayer leaders".

Now, as the Church grew, and so did heresies, having bishops for every backwater village was stupid, so bishops were taking care of regions, with the presbyters(priests) were taking care of sacraments and all that, but only as the bishop's legally empowered representative(which is why the eastern churches have the antimins/ţablîtho/tâbot/maqta'/gorbura as a show of the priest's bond to his bishop. Without a bishop, he's just a guy larping sacraments in a robe.)

8)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axios_(acclamation)

10,11)Don't know enough to comment.

13)A sadly overlooked thing, in the attempt of catholics to bring petrine primacy to the forefront.

14)Yeah. Multiple ordinations, but regional bishops started electing a head(which is how we got patriarchs)

15)It's called the valentinian canon. Shockingly, everyone who still has bishops agrees Rome had some primacy.

16)Yeah. Second statement is pushing it.

17)Yeah

18)Chieti document agrees with that

19,20)The exact relationship between Pope and ecum. councils is something still being debated.

>>707846

>ROME LOCUTA CAUSA FINITA

That quote is fake. The actual extract has a totally different wording and intention(basically, "we've already answered you twice. what more do you want? Now stop annoying Rome, and get your shit together, North Africa")


fa3f14  No.707872


054c48  No.707888

>>707872

That entire article is trying too hard to wrap a wrong point in apologetics.

The point still stands.

There is no occurence of that phrase.

It's an adaptation of this bit, morphed to push an ideology:

>For already two Councils have been sent to the Apostolic See concerning this matter, and rescripts have come from thence [from Rome]. The case is concluded; would that the error would soon cease also.

Aka:

Stop being retarded.

We've already had 2 councils, and you can't pull off more appeals.

Now put into practice the decisions of those councils, and stop pestering us, North Africa.

You are just being annoying at this point.


fa3f14  No.707912

>>707888

Or rather:

>We had 2 councils

>They were send to Rome

>Rome have spoken

>STFU


9d5b3c  No.707942

File: 017bdd05ac8d567⋯.png (53.25 KB, 403x448, 403:448, brainlet .png)

>>707846

>Acts 15 says James gave judgement

>SEE!? PETER WAS POPE!!!


d91bd5  No.707963

>>707942

>Protodox can't handle Peter being the foundation of the Church


fa3f14  No.708082

>>707942

>Acts 15 for retards

>Jerusalem priests start to judaizing

>Paul ain't having this shit

>Apostles call a council

>Fighting ad nauseam

>Peter stand up

>all shut up

>Peter says: Shut the winnie the pooh up you retards. No judaizing. Ego locuta etc.

>All agree

>James gives discipline becuase it wouldn't even happen if he wasn't slopy with his priests.

AKA like all Ecumenical counil worked.


b603bb  No.708084

>>707744

>implying that any of that refutes the papacy


159191  No.711720

>>707846

Appreciate your answer but your critique is too vague compared with the article I posted. Just dropping 2 whole chapters like

>Acts 10&15

doesn't say much to be honest. Maybe you can provide specific citations.


503c41  No.711724

The problem is, like it or not Ignatius and Clement saw the clerical system as a sort of priesthood. Ignatius literally uses terms from Pagan cultic contexts to describe how the clergy would function.

And even worse, Irenaeus literally wrote down an entire system of succession of Rome to show just how the Church's faith is the same yesterday and today hence making succession important.

Ignatius literally writes in mimesis of Paul too and the higher position of the Apostles? Explained by his quasi divine concept of them

http://www.academia.edu/10578584/_Ignatius_and_the_Apostolate._The_Witness_of_Ignatius_to_the_Emergence_of_Christian_Scripture._in_M._F._Wiles_and_E._J._Yarnold_eds._Studia_Patristica_XXXVI._Leuven_Peeters_Press_2001_226-48


728418  No.711725

File: 1a64988069a38c5⋯.png (74.07 KB, 454x205, 454:205, Screen Shot 2018-10-08 at ….png)

>>707744

What is happening?


f8461b  No.711729

Why do you people waste your time with these stupid denomination beefs?


51f62c  No.712025

>>711725

People trying to discredit our Church Christ created, nothing new tbh.


b603bb  No.712028

>>711725

Battle of the bumps


297ed7  No.712058

>>711725

The Baptists got home from summer Bible camp.


6aacb1  No.712342

>>712058

>being this mad about people who read their bible.


6aacb1  No.712345

File: e47a74156db58ba⋯.png (7.42 KB, 207x243, 23:27, 0AA09D8A-E66D-4CEC-9ACF-AF….png)

>>708082

>>711724

>>712025

>>707963

>7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

>8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

>9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

>10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

>11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

>12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

>13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation

galatians 2


54e890  No.712538

>>707758

>lig my benis


e841f4  No.712545

Remember when Jesus argued about which denomination was the true denomination?


f6dd66  No.712744

>>712545

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but He did say there would be false teachers. Paul then later anathematised anything that seeks to insert something more alongside faith alone that saves that is a gift of God by unmerited favor. That latter would include the vast majority of those denominations that call themselves christian, whether in practice, teaching or both.




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