/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>703406

>Is praying to saints idolatry?

NO. We need to stop revising and corrupting the faith. We need to go BACK to the way things once were.

Can you answer my question, though? I would like to know the justification for this doctrine.

>>703406

James 5:16 : Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

Prayer to saints is asking them to pray for us to God.

>inb4 saints are dead

He is not the God of the dead but of the living. You are gravely mistaken.

>>703406

>Where in the Bible does it say we should pray TO anyone but GOD?

Have you ever read a prayer talking about saints?

It's always, "oh, St.X, who was awesome in such-and-such, pray for us"

>>703414

I would say, that is still praying TO the saint, correct? You are praying TO them to do something for you? correct?

>>703409

>>703414

That's what people are asking: how can they hear you? Nobody disputes that you can ask someone who is still living to pray for you.

>>703417

No, you're praying to a Saint so that Saint can relay the message to God and so God can help you.

>>703417

>something

You pray for them to pray for you. You meant to say that whenever you ask someone to, "pray for me", you;re saying you're committing idolatry?

Hogwash.

>>703420

So, you are not praying TO the saint? But praying the Father that the saint may pray for you?

If you're praying to the Father already, what is the need to pray to the saint?

>>703422

Because the Saint can help you? It's a simple concept why are you being obtuse about it?

>>703424

So, you ARE praying the Father? Also, how can a saint help you better than God can?

>>703406

If the Saints are alive, and under God's rule, are perfectly righteous, are commanded to pray for one another always, offer up prayers to God without ceasing, and are around us always as a cloud of witnesses, praying to them to ask them to pray for us is fine. Every single one of those things I said can be found in scripture, since you're so big on it, look up the references.

>>703426

Because saints are more righteous than us.

>>703420

>>703424

Who mediates between earth and heaven besides Jesus? How does the saint hear your prayer? Is the saint all-seeing or all-knowing like God? That's the question at hand, not the concept of intercessory prayer.

>>703429

They have the beatific vision, they can see all the God loves as God IS love, because they can see God. The only thing they can't see (from where they are) are the things known to God alone. Such as your inmost will, the Second Coming date, and so on.

>>703426

I pray to the Father by asking a Saint to relay the message because the Saint is more righteous then me to the Father so that way the Father can help me.

It's very simple when you get down to it.

>>703432

This is definitely the best answer so far.

However, it is written, when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, his righteousness becomes our own. So how can a saint in heaven be more righteous than you? Is it only because they are in heaven?

>>703431

Thanks for answering my question. I'm also reading http://newadvent.org/summa/5072.htm#article1 which is also attempting to answer my question.

>>703435

It's because they are in Heaven. Are you in Heaven?

>>703438

So, what are the scriptures that support this doctrine specifically?

Where in the Bible does someone pray to a saint?

>>703439

I don't have the info on hand and I may be wrong, I do know what I said above is correct, but I don't have the proper documents to show it.

>>703442

How is that? If you think praying to saints IS idolatry, then you must admit, not every church does that.

>>703442

Go back to /islam/

>>703444

You will be pretty embarrassed when you meet me someday!

>>703445

I'm not following.

>>703431

>The only thing they can't see (from where they are) are the things known to God alone. Such as your inmost will

This actually explains a lot of stuff from my experiences.

Back the original question:

Where does it say in the Bible we should pray to anyone but God. I'm getting mixed opionions; some say it is praying TO saints, some say it's praying the Father for the saints' help.

So I'll ask, where in the Bible does someone pray for the intercession of a saint?

>>703449

The bible alone isn't the answer to it.

>>703447

You claim to know me, but fail to recognize me!

>>703452

Probably, I don't have the documents ready for this discussion but I'm sure someone else in the thread can explain it better then me.

>>703458

>Surely you understand that we can only reference the Bible in this discussion?

No, not really.

>>703456

It was baking cakes and offerings to her that was idolatrous. God disapproves of offering sacrifices and worship to other spirits. He doesn't mind prayer to them if they're good spirits.

>>703461

Prayer is an offering.

What do protestants think the communion of saints means when they recite the apostles creed?

>>703465

How many saints were in Corinth when Paul wrote to them? Perhaps "saint" is a more widely applicable term than some may think.

>>703463

Semantics

>>703467

Biblical semantics. Hebrews 13:15-16

>>703466

Saints exist outside of time

>>703472

There were also old testament saints

>>703475

>he never written a letter to someone that was dead before

>>703472

I don't think you understand what the implications of eternity are

>>703478

I don't think you understand what the implications of not answering a question are.

>>703480

If the question isn't right then why answer it?

>>703461

>>703461

>>703461

you didnt reply to my other part, nit picking is a bad argument.

>>703481

Here are some sufficiently right questions I think:

Are all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ saints? Are the saints in Corinth that Paul writes to simply believers in Christ? or are they special super holy individuals that we should pray to or ask for their help?

>>703426

Have you never asked a friend to pray for you? It's a really common thing, Christians praying for each other and asking each other to pray for them. Asking a saint to pray for you is literally the same only they're in heaven and are as of such more holy than us

>>703482

You mean this?

>Why would you want a saint's help when you can get god's help.

Because God's more likely to listen to someone holier than me.

>>703523

And you know that they're holier how?

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

If you believe Jesus is Lord, then his righteousness is imputed onto you. No one is righteous on their own, "none are righteous, no, not one" and nobody who is in Christ is more righteous in God's eyes than another who is in Christ.

Can you disprove that scripturally?

>>703406

Praying TO saints, yes.

Asking saints to pray FOR us. no.

If you can't tell the difference, you're a child.

>>703561

Do you pray, saying "Father, please send saint X to help me." or do you skip praying to the Father?

You don't think it's strange to ask a spirit in heaven to help you before God?

If speaking to a heavenly spirit isn't praying, then what is praying?

>>703552

What denomination are you?

>>703563

You pray for a Saint for them to pray for you. It's simple logic here. I mean where are you being tripped up here.

>>703595

You ask the Father for the saint to pray for you? If that's what you mean, why would God listen to an unrighteous person anyways (I'm hearing that saints are more righteous than you)? If you're skipping the Father entirely, then tell me, how is asking a heavenly spirit for help not praying to it?

>>703406

Break up the word idolatry into its composite parts and look at the definitions

>idol: an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

>latry: denoting worship of a specified thing.

Is a saint an image of representation of a god? No. Are you worshipping them? No.

By the word, prayer to saints is not idolatry

>>703682

You are praying to them. Is prayer not a form of offering, and therefore, worship?

>>703686

Yes, it is a form of worship. As is kneeling and the like. Do not judge this through a cultural lenses of "this is old, this okay" but through whether in Christ's time and place would this be idolatry? The answer is yes.

>>703595

I am Christian.

>>703682

Only a few more years till scripture and doctrine is read like jews I see…

>>703412

/thread

>>703679

No no, I for the Saint, who then in turns prays for me to the Father. It's like a blockchain of prayers.

>>703902

Because the saint has more sway then you, friend.

>>703914

So, what you're saying is that they can change God's opinion?

Is that how it works?

>>703916

It's not really change, it's more like God knows in his heart that you love him but you can't reach him yourself or something.

>>703919

I think this boils it down. It seems people think THEY can reach God, but this isn't true. It's God who reaches to us.

Can saints hear us if we pray to ourselves and don't vocalize them?

What happens if we pray to what we believe is a saint in heaven but he is actually in hell?

Serious questions I've always been too afraid to ask, because I fear I should have known the answers decades ago.

>>703406

> Is praying to saints idolatry?

Yes.

>The Bible says that prayer is a form of sacrificial offering.

Yes.

>There is also the Lord's Prayer.

Yes, we were taught specifically in what manner we should pray.

>Jesus says we should pray TO the FATHER.

Yes.

>Where in the Bible does it say we should pray TO anyone but GOD?

Good luck finding THAT chapter & verse! Sound like you already get it, OP. Pray to the Father and don't worry about it too much: Romans 8:26

Also, for God's sake, take everything in this board with a huge grain of salt.

>>703944

Paul, writing in Romans, says that it is wrong to pray to the Host of Heaven (Angels). So, if saints are even equal to Angels in heaven, you still should NOT pray to them.

>>703955

Verse pls

>>703960

Woops,verse I was thinking of was in Colossians. Anyways, Colossians, 2:18

Also, Romans 1:25 speaks of not worshiping any created thing.

Can you tell me why it is not worship to pray to a saint?

>>703968

>Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

That speaks of worship not prayer.

>Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

This is just saying don't serve them more than God.

>>703971

Is praying not worshiping? If I pray to Mars am I not technically worshiping him?

Is prayer not a form of offering?

>>704019

How is mere communication worship? I do not worship someone by talking to them.

>>704032

Is prayer just mere communication with someone?

>>703919

>>703914

And to think the veil was torn for this…

>>704043

prayer has different forms.

>>703406

Yes despite what the idolatrous cathi and orthrocucks are saying. Remember what Jesus said in John 14:6 “Jesus answered, ‘I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”. Mary can’t save you nor go on your behalf towards God and neither can the dead saints as both of them didn’t die for your sins and are fallible and are not without sin. Plus it makes you susceptible to demonic suggestions as they can pretend to be them

Here is a summary of this thread:

>Can you tell me why praying to a saint is not worship?

>Here, for this and that reason

>Can you tell me why praying to a saint is not worship?

If prots were not obstinate they wouldn't be prots.

Ok listen up, prots.

>asking a living person to pray for you

Is it idolatry? Of course not!

>God is not the God of the dead, but of the living

Are the saints dead? No, man. They're alive in Christ!

>Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses[…]

Any questions?

>>704204

I will fully admit, I've never even thought about asking people to pray for me, but I pray for others privately very often. Why do we ask for others to pray for us?

>>704185

It’s because they would like biblical sources not taken out of context

For example, it is biblical truth that all who truly believe in Christ are saints.

>>703409

Third post best post

>>704213

Can you confirm the "living saints" actually are and not "dead, burning in hell"?

>>704204

I had no idea you personally knew ancient Christians. Nor knew whether or not who is and isn't in hell….

>time to go pray to St. Abaddon

>idolatry towards angels is also not worship

An idolator never enjoys feeling scorned. It enflames their idolatry even more.

>>704391

Seconding this; how can anyone prove if someone is in heaven or not?

>>704360

Dude we got a whole thread pinned of people asking others to pray for them. Check that and you'll have your answer, bruh.

>>704391

>I had no idea you personally knew ancient Christians. Nor knew whether or not who is and isn't in hell….

You're right, I didn't personally know the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, she prophesied that all generations would call her blessed. Also, the graces she obtained for me aside, the fact that petitions to her can be traced back all the way to the early Church leaves me no doubt that she lived a virtuous life and is in Heaven as the greatest saint who ever lived.

>>704409

Let me get this straight, you are claiming that everyone is in hell until proven they are in Heaven, correct?

>>704418

I'm going to cover for him and say no because I've read, re-read and re-re-read his message and there's no way to get "everyone is in hell until proven they are in Heaven" form it, in either a literal sense of a less literal sense where it just means we should act as if everyone was in hell even if they aren't.

>>704428

Well if you imply we don't know if we are or not going to heaven, that implies and begs the question about the idea if anyone outside of Jesus (and Mary) did in fact go to Heaven.

>Jews consecrate synagogues to God's angels

>Jews pray to angels and have high regard for them

>Paul says women must be veiled on account of the angels in Corinthians

>Revelations say the elders in Heaven offer the prayers of saints on earth to God

>Revelations 18 even invoke the dead apostles, prophets and martyrs to rejoice

>Chronicles literally use "worship" for both Yahweh and King David

Protestant autism knows no bounds

>>704534

>>704535

>>704536

So, is it okay to pray to angels?

Why is prayer not worship?

If prayer is not worship, then is it okay if I pray to whomever I want?

>>704555

>then is it okay if I pray to whomever I want?

I mean within reason, yeah. You wouldn't pray to Satan would you?

>>704557

So, when we pray to God, does he not view our prayers as a form of sacrifice or offering?

>>704409

So all the apostles and Mary might be in hell according to the 500 year old version of Christianity?

>>704585

First, I’m not Protestant,

Second, you’re being purposefully dishonest, you know that the majority of saints are not the apostles and Mary.

>>703419

Are you implying that we can't pray directly to God ourselves? We need to earn prayer points from people who were significant in the Church?

>>704593

Answer the question. What grounds do prots have for guaranteeing the salvation of apostles or Mary? Remember it has to be from da sola scriptura.

>>704602

Bible says to pray for each other. Is this cause we all need prayer points and mass consensus to influence God? Or maybe it's the right thing to do and pleased God in itself….

>>704555

>Paul

>Women must be veiled on account of angels

Why should they be honoured?

>>704653

I don’t speak for prots, but I know the apostles and Mary are in heaven because the apostles were prophets (wrote scripture), and Mary believed on God according to the scripture. Therefore, they are in heaven.

>>704602

You can pray to God directly, when was it said otherwise?

>>704653

Why that sola scriptura proties seem to know the least about the bible?

“Then Peter answered and said to Him, ‘See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore, what shall we have?’ So, Jesus said unto them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’

>>704806

What on Earth does this have to do with all the saints canonized in the thousands of years after the apostles?

>>704659

>>704659

>>704806

And it's clear saints believed in scripture too, look at their writings or lives.

No guarantee the apostles or Mary were saved anymore than the saints were . If you reject one you reject the other, period.

>old lady in church is sick

>ask her if she's ok

>"yes, but please pray for me so I can get well"

>immediately report her to pastor jimmy bob for being an idolator and have her publically ejected from the church

>>704814

So everyone goes to hell, thanks Pastor Bob.

>>705171

Incredible, I never knew all the canonized saints were really limited to the Apostles and Mary, which the Bible Makes clear ARE in Heaven.

I thought there were hundreds of post-biblical saints.

>>705171

I like the Pastor Jim meme better. Rolls off the tongue more easily.

>>705247

Tell me about it, here I thought that my relatives, people who allowed themselves to become Martyrs , people the Church state actually did something were in heaven but nope, according to Pastor Jim, everyone that isn't an Apostle and Mary (and even that is debatable) is in hell.

>>705304

Well it’s not good works that get you to heaven, so all you still have is a hope they’re in heaven. Even then, why should we pray to our passed away relatives?

God does not care about our feelings.

>>705389

>faith without good work

>has claimed in this thread that no one has confirmed entered heaven.

You know, it could be said that putting in faith and good work might actually get into Heaven, just saying.

>to

It's you pray FOR them to pray for you.

>>705444

/christian/ usually ends up in defending cathodox dogma against protestants, over and over and over (occ. orthodox on a tear against the catholic church)

what concerns me, is that I doubt we have a huge influx of new people, so it's the same people attacking from every which angle, but only the mods would know

>>705416

Not professing, but truly believing. There is a difference.

>>705444

Not much of an argument when the Bible says they are.

>>705545

Something I have always wondered about sola fide: it is faith in what that saves?

Is it just the physical existence of Jesus Christ and his character as the son of God? So I can believe in anything I want so long as I believe God walked among us in the flesh?

Or is it in the incarnation plus teachings? That is, beyond believing Christ walked among us, I have to believe he walked among us and taught X (and not Y)? So a protestant who believed in the eucharist could be damned if it happens a protestant who doesn't believe in the eucharist is right?

>>705549

Faith that God alone can save you, not any work of your own. That Jesus is your savior, not yourself (in any way).

>>705553

To believe is to submit and act in accord with what you believe. Else one is a hypocrite. There is no such thing as being saved by mental thoughts.

>>703406

>OP has a strong case

>OP sparks shitstorm

So, just another day on /christian/ …

>>705586

If something may lead to idolatry, I would say the most sensible thing to do is to not do that thing at all.

>>705589

To a degree. Anything can become idolatry if placed above God (including asking friends to pray for you), the difference is that people are far less prone to idolise their friends' prayers than prayers from a renowned, canonised saint. To many, these saints become another layer of intercession because they lack faith in Christ's intercession.

yes, you are only supposed to pray to Jesus and quite frankly, you should only WANT to pray to Jesus. the vail was rent in twain and the Son is raised in glory.

Saul tried to talk to samuel through a diviner and witches are supposed to be put to death.

>>705593

Talking to spirits is divination, that is true.

However, I would argue that if we want to honor Jesus, we should honor what he commanded of us, and pray to the Father, and not to him.

>>705553

You didn't answer my question though. "I have faith Jesus is my savior" means literally just these words? If for example I interpret the part in the bible in which Jesus turns water into wine as support for wanton drinking, is this Jesus-who-supports-wanton-drinking "Jesus" for purposes of sola fide?

>>705648

Your confusion is based on trying to justify your flesh.

If you and your flesh was righteous, you wouldn't need a savior. Whether you're a raging murderer who persecuted the church like Paul or a friday night lite beer drinker who tells white lies, you have fallen short of the glory of yourself.

>>705545

Okay hold on, you said essentally that you don't know if someone's in heaven, yet you state that you believe that you truly believe in Him, yet you honestly don't know that people are in heaven or not. You see the pattern here?

>>703406

Absolutely, it's a pagan practice that the Catholics adopted from Rome.

>>705795

What's your denomination?

>>705797

Bible believer

>>705798

You worship the bible yet call people who pray for Saints and relatives to help them evil?

If someone asked you to pray for them, would you bully and treat them like whinne the pooh?

>>705801

I worship the Word because it is GOD, and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. The saints aren't God and I don't pray to my friends to pray for me, I ASK them to. Do you ask people for stuff through PRAYER? Serious question. I ONLY pray to God.

>>705805

So if someone is sick and they ask you to pray for them you wouldn't.

>>705808

I would, but I wouldn't if they prayed for me to pray for them because I wouldn't know since I'm not God.

>>705816

Well YOU aren't in heaven so how would you know?

>>705819

>Matthew 6:6 - But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Why would being in heaven make you able to hear people's prayers?

>>705830

Scroll up in the thread then instead of just replying, we went through this already.

>>705833

I skimmed through it and it was mostly catholic extra-biblical garbage

>>705835

Maybe this is because this board is mostly a Catholic board?

>>705839

The name mislead me

>>705721

I can never know the true beliefs of someone else. I can know my own, however.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

- 1 Timothy 2:5

>>709449

That's heresy

>>703902

>why pray to God if he knows everything you need/want already

>why pray to God if he is immutable and knows your future already

prayer is to change you, not to change God

>>709461

Prayer is to worship God, do you disagree?

Anyone else think the Mary veneration has really gotten out of hand over the last hundred years? People are even starting to think they can be saved through her. Does the increase in Mary worship match the recent moral downtrend of the church?

>>709477

Doing things pastor Jim doesn’t like.

>>709477

>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>709470

Do you think maybe turning away from God alone has some correlation to moral decline? Maybe? Maybe just a little?

Maybe clergy don’t have to be celibate because it’s not biblical? I mean, catholic clergy are kind of like the priests of Attis. I mean they do have a “Heavenly Mother, Queen of Heaven”. You know, like Cybele, whose priests were celibate.

Why did the early Christians worship saints?

>>709826

Chapter 17. The Christians are refused Polycarp's body

But when the adversary of the race of the righteous, the envious, malicious, and wicked one, perceived the impressive nature of his martyrdom, and [considered] the blameless life he had led from the beginning, and how he was now crowned with the wreath of immortality, having beyond dispute received his reward, he did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, lest, said he, forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one. This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners ), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples!

From the Martyrdom of Polycarp

>>709826

Because pastor Jim, the head of God’s church, wasn’t around at the time.

>>703406

>Is Praying to Saints Idolatry?

>Praying to Saints

>to

Even cathbros would say "yes", surely

>>703407

uh. okay. scratch that.

yes, OP, it is

>>709827

*airhorn*

Prayer being worship is a retarded semantic argument. I'm too lazy to greentext so here's the raw text.

The Catholic Response

When Catholics say we are praying to God and praying to saints we are talking about qualitatively different things as different as a monkey is to a man. The Protestant generally only has one species in mind when he thinks of prayer—prayer to God that necessarily includes adoration. But one need only pick up a dictionary to discover there are in truth different definitions and therefore different usages of the same word in English.

Prayer:

The act or practice of praying.

An earnest request; entreaty; supplication

(a) humble entreaty addressed to God, to a god, etc.: (b) a request made to God, etc.; as, her prayer for his safe return; (c) any set formula for praying, as to God.

Prayer is not, by definition, necessarily equated with the adoration that is due God alone. Prayer can certainly involve an act of adoration when it is directed to God, but the term does not necessarily denote adoration. It can simply mean “an entreaty.”

I do not adore the saints nor pray to them in the same sense I do to God. I entreaty them. Does that make pastor Jim feel better.

>inb4 MUH NECROMANCY

>if a Christian on earth asks a saint to pray for him, this is directly supported by the biblical indications above, and God is the one Whose power makes the relationship between departed and living members of the Body of Christ possible. The medium in a séance, on the other hand, is trying to use her own occultic powers to “conjure up” the dead. That also opens up the possibility of demonic counterfeit. Catholics aren’t “conjuring” anyone or trying to use self-generated occultic powers. We’re simply asking great departed saints to pray for us. If they are aware of the earth, then God can also make it possible for them to “hear” and heed our prayer requests. If this weren’t the case, then saints and angels in heaven wouldn’t be portrayed as they are in Scripture: intensely active and still involved in earthly affairs.

Saints have the beatific vision and can see and hear anything they wish on Earth, including our prayers. We do not use occult or witchcraft to force communication with them. We trust they will listen to us on their own accord.

>>709879

That proves the idolatry of the early Christians by your own standard.

>>709891

And how must you adore something to make your prayer idolatry?

How is your adoration of God different from the Saints?

For the sake of argument I would like your definitions.

>>709895

It's the same difference between addressing God and making a request to a friend. The only difference is the friend is in heaven.

>>709899

So, how would you then define idolatry?

>>709916

Worshipping false idols and/or claiming something else besides the trinity is God.

>>709938

So, can I worship an angel?

>>709955

No, anything that's not a Person of the Trinity becomes a false idol once worshipped.

>>709957

Can I pray to an angel?

>>710050

You may communicate with angels.

>>710075

Can I initiate the communication?

If I ask an angel to help me, what am I doing?

>>705589

>Eating food can lead to gluttony. Therefore I will never eat again.

>>710313

You have to eat food or you’ll die. I don’t think you’ll die if you don’t pray to saints.

>>710319

My clumsy use of death as hyperbole aside, my point was that you're going too far. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Intercessory prayer can be become idolatrous. However when practiced carefully can be a good thing.

>>710335

And tell me how intercessory prayer can be idolatrous?

I pray for people all the time. I'll say "My Father in Heaven, hallowed be thy name, please bless/help X Person, thy will be done, amen."

>>710579

It becomes idolatrous when you put too much value onto the intercession itself.

"I need this saint to pray for me. Then I'll be alright." The same line of thinking would still be idolatrous when applied to a living person. There's nothing wrong with praying for others or asking for prayers, however you can take it too far and place the prayers of others above God.

>>710814

pushed reply too quickly

If you had a living friend that in your eyes was particularly pious, and asked him/her to pray for you often, that could become idolatrous if you get to the point where you're valuing the person above God. "My friend is so holy… Everything they pray for comes true. I have to get them to pray for me or I'll never be able to get what I want."

The same kind of relationship can develop between us and saints if we aren't careful. What was once a good thing can quickly develop into sin if it isn't treated carefully.

>>710816

>"My friend is so holy… Everything they pray for comes true. I have to get them to pray for me or I'll never be able to get what I want."

But God hates me and never gives me what I want unless I pray to other spirits.

>>703406

Keep yourself away from idols little children

<Idolatry

>Bless the Lord, you His angels, Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word. Bless the Lord, all you His hosts, You [a]ministers of His, who do His pleasure. (Psalm 103:20-21)

Asking angels to pray for you isn't different than asking them to pray with you.

<Saints are dead

>He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly [a]mistaken.”

That's self explanatory.

<Saints can't hear you

>Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

The cloud is clearly all those people alive in Christ.

It's like, your dad is mad at you because you did something wrong. There's absolutely nothing bad about asking your brother, whom your dad loves because he listens to ask your dad to forgive you, or to give you money for ice cream.

It's still your father that forgives you, you aren't being sneaky.

Now can we stop destroying what nearly 2000 years have taught because we think we're more clever than the Church Fathers? Thanks

Like I feel like the 2nd commandment is completely ignored by Catholics even their crosses break it

>>710814

So, is God a respecter of persons? I thought he was not.

Does this boil down to trying to up the odds that your prayer will “work”?

Roman Empire is the ilumiati

>>710895

The context refers to bowing down to or worshiping the images. Catholics absolutely bow down ("venerate/adore") their images.

Notice you can't "bow down" even if you don't think you're worshiping it.

>>710896

>Thou shalt not make

>Thou shalt not bow

There is no "and". Neither one nor the other. No context needed. It's either literal or it is not.

>>710890

>Does this boil down to trying to up the odds that your prayer will “work”?

Certainly not. That's the whole problem and why I would claim that scenario would be idolatrous. Such a mindset is twisted and in need of repentance.

However, you can also go too far in the other direction like >>710892

Iconoclasts destroy good things in an attempt to rid themselves of the bad. It's like deciding to destroy your car after you read about the odds of death in a car accident.

>>710896

But Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Are all the medieval people who kneeled against an incarnate queen going to hell?

>hey guys we arent pagans

>does everything pagans do worship heroes and idols

>>710899

If you really believe the Bible says to never make any artwork at all, then it's better to follow the Bible than not to.

>>710911

No its about images of spirits/saints/heros in heaven, or below

>>710914

Absolutely, just was responding to >>710895

BIDF please go.

>>703406

No, by praying to the saints we do not presuppose that they're divine like God, nor do we presuppose any power that they don't have, and indeed this veneration is part of our worship of the true God.

>>711059

>Catholicism is polytheistic

I wasn't expecting you to say that, but I admire your candor.

>>710981

When the dindus kneel during the anthem, the grand lie of multiculturalism becomes very apparent.

You are seeing the visual equivalence of battle drums being heard off in the distance.

One ethnic group is dropping all pretense that we can live together civilly.

>>711037

Can you address my argument instead of just calling it dishonest?

Don’t you think Emperor Theodosius made a BIG mistake when he made paganism “illegal” and therefore a bunch of pagans all of the sudden started going to church?

>>711044

Yes, some of them do that; mostly because most Catholics sadly were never properly trained and taught about their own faith… that does not mean all Catholics are like that.

>>711171

>>711182

>>711184

God is not a respecter of persons. I'm sorry. We DO have a culture of state idolatry. Maybe people will hate me for saying that, but it's true.

>>711182

>>711184

>>711171

Nice try but I see no graven images or idols in those photos

>>711197

Except the people are displaying gestures of honour toward objects, like memorials. Catholics, early Christians and Orthodox do literally the same thing to relics or images of saints for the same reason, and you cry idolatry. Hypocrite

Also, if images are forbidden, so too are mental images which makes Paul and Hebrews both in contradiction of your flawed interpretation of why Graven images are forbidden.

>>711372

I don't know you're focusing on the visual aspect here. I'm concerned with the spiritual aspect. I don't think Christian artwork is bad. Even iconography is fine. It's undeniable Christianity has always had iconography. The issue is praying to what said icons represent. I'm uncertain that these people at graves are praying to the soul of the departed to help them.

>>711939

That is a non argument, as both those who venerate icons or altars and those who do the same to monuments and graves, pay homage and respect to their prototypes. It does not even matter if one prays to saints which is an ANCIENT practice to begin with.

Why? Because you dont do the same thing to Icons or altars at all and see it as a "salute". If your explanation is as you say, your practice dont reflect that When was the last time a low churchman bowed to an altar or icon to pay honour?

Here is your answer, never.

>>704535

Funny Prots keep ignoring this