/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>695634

God created a space of possibilities, the multiplicity that we partially perceive as "the universe". Evil is a possibility within this space since it arises from free-will that acts in opposition to God's will.

>caused the fall of Eve

He didn't cause it directly, he created the possibility for it by generating the world of possibilities, and Eve took action and turned a possibility into an actuality via her will power.

Does this help? A carpenter can build a house for you, with all good intentions. If you decide to turn the basement into a torture chamber that's your own evil, you can't blame the carpenter.

This thread gets replies but mine doesnt

>>695631

>>695648

This is a slow board, calm down. You sound paranoid.

>>695650

hahaha you read my post. thank you. it feels good knowing someone out there is listening

>>695643

But what about things that don't arise from freewill like the negative parts of all things (like when you say pros and cons)? Why create the possibility of evil? Isn't that just asking for trouble?

There's no way he didn't cause evil if he controls everything and there is evil within everything.

That does not help, but it does demonstrate your stupidity or your willingness to be intellectually dishonest in order to protect god.

>>695643

But thank you for trying, I presume you gave some effort and I hope you are just stupid and not lying to yourself.

In regards to the insults I slung, this is a chan website after all and you should have a thick skin and know not to return the insults from using these websites.

And I mean like if he's controlling me right now isn't he sending me to hell by making me an atheist? That doesn't sound very good. That sounds evil.

>>695656

you're a meanie

>>695664

I am very evil, but I try to be polite when I talk to people. Isn't that sin? If God controls everything he is the largest cause of this as I have no choice but to perform his will?

>>695664

I forgot to write "and you're a pussy", pussy.

>>695671

If he's omnipotent he can do anything. He can make a square circle. He can make a female man. He can cause a virgin birth. He can cause or make creation separated but perfect. Your god is evil. And good, there's good stuff in the Universe too. But he's also evil. He's a mix. An insane man. He births his son one day and kills entire species the next. When are we really going to feel the sting from your god?

>>695671

"Because you can't create Up without a Down, a Left without a Right, Cold without Hot. We live in the world of multiplicity and in order to have free-will the possibility of evil must exist. Since we are made in God's image we have the ability to choose, we have the ability to understand right from wrong, etc.

God made us for the good, to love and to be loved. But you can't have Up without Down, so evil has to be a possibility for us, otherwise we would not be authentic individuals."

He can do anything at all. He can make only up or only down. So really, answer my goddamn question: why create evil or even the possibility of evil?

And why is our reward for worshiping Jesus just going to a city in the sky? If I were in charge, I would give you whatever you wanted. Even if you wanted to kill me (no lies) or be in the city in the sky.

Now, I'm not entirely sure that I would let you kill me, because this situation hasn't come to pass yet, but when ex girlfriend tried to kill me I just lay there and let her. SO I'm thinking if you said you wanted it I'd let you.

And if you don't believe God could do everything, even the impossible things like resurrection, you're not true Christian and I want you to get the winnie the pooh out of here because I want a true Christian to explain to me why God isn't evil.

My mom, doesn't believe in the Bible completely. Her beliefs almost make sense, but they sure as hell make more sense than what I'm hearing here.

Too pussy to answer me? Maybe your "God" will, he talks a lot, doesn't he?

>>695699

Why not create even a better maximum of good without evil? If he's Omnipotent he can do anything. Are you saying God, Yahweh, or Jesus is not omnipotent? Heretic.

>>695674

>If he's omnipotent he can do anything. He can make a square circle.

This isn't true, it's a logically incoherent view of omnipotence. It's fundamentally paradoxical. I think the problem is you've constructed a strawman God in your head that doesn't make any sense and when people try to explain things you just use this paradoxical omnipotence to say "Nuh uh! God could do something that doesn't make sense!". So if you're claiming God can do nonsensical things why are you demanding a logically coherent argument? Yours isn't.

Is the Bible wrong? Did some heretic write it? The bible states that the LORD controls everything.

>>695702

Omnipotent means having all powers, a power is the ability to do something. All powers include the power to make a square circle. "With God all things are possible" said Jesus. He is directly implying that God can do impossible things and/or that god can do anything. You're wrong. I'm right. Just is, now go back and suck the Jesu-cock.

>>695700

See >>695702

You don't understand what omnipotence is, that's your stumbling point. We know of at least one thing God cannot do, Sin. Does the fact God cannot sin mean his power is limited?

Here's the relevant part of the Summa where Thomas Aquinas addresses your point:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1025.htm

>All confess that God is omnipotent; but it seems difficult to explain in what His omnipotence precisely consists: for there may be doubt as to the precise meaning of the word 'all' when we say that God can do all things. If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, "God can do all things," is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent.

>>695707

Yes, his power is limited because he cannot sin. If you cannot do something you do not have that power.

>>695709

Sin is a defect. It's not a power. Lacking a defect is not a real "limitation" because a defect is a lack of being or a degeneration of being. It's like lacking in "ignorance", no problem here. Ignorance is not a power neither is Sin, it's a lack of power, deprivation of being.

>>695709

Some things are simply incoherent or impossible no matter how much power you have. You could convert all the mass in the universe to energy but it still wouldn't give you enough power to breach the speed of light. God can create entire universes ex nihilo and this one we inhabit was the one with the maximum potential for good. Any change God could've made would've resulted in a universe with less potential good. That's simply the way it is.

>>695707

">All confess that God is omnipotent; but it seems difficult to explain in what His omnipotence precisely consists: for there may be doubt as to the precise meaning of the word 'all' when we say that God can do all things. If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, "God can do all things," is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent." Okay, why did he give us such a shitty priest that couldn't explain or correctly and sufficiently define "omnipotence" or "all-powerful". This is apparently a matter of the greatest important. You'd think if he was perfect he would have known how important it was and he would send the best priest (or at least one who knew to and would define the goddamn word) or wait until the best priest (or at least one who knew to and would define the goddamn word) was able to write it.

>>695710

No, my ability to winnie the pooh for reasons other than procreation is also an ability to sin. This ability to winnie the pooh is a power. If god can't sin then he doesn't have the power to sin. However if he just doesn't sin, but is able to sin then he is more likely to be omnipotent. Is that what you're trying to say? That he has the power to sin, but it isn't in his nature?

>>695711

And how do you know this? Do you have all the necessary data for that conclusion? Because you have to have a lot more data, than we as a species, have now.

>>695714

Sorry, somehow god changed my words from winnie the pooh to winnie the pooh instead of changing my mind like a goddamn more perfect being would do.

>>695712

God is the font of all goodness in creation. He created the universe that would contain the most good because He is pure goodness. We have all the data we need. Learning how the physical universe works is irrelevant for everything but understanding how to control it and create new technologies.

>>695714

God has all-power. But his desire is all-good, so he doesn't use his power for evil/defective, ignorant or delusional behavior.

But the Bible states numerous times that he controls everything and there is evil in the world. Even if we have free will he is in control of us thus our choices are really his choices. So again, how can there be evil in the world but God also be good.

>>695721

He allows us to exercise our will, that doesn't mean he is responsible for it. Our agency is our own.

> So again, how can there be evil in the world but God also be good.

There is no such thing as evil in a godless world.

Evil is freely acting against God's will, against the Good.

>>695716

I meant f u c k

>>695723

Haha, you're so stupid you can't understand what that means? Your god or your computer programs suck

>>695722

This is impossible the Universe is entirely mechanical in nature. When you drop an object in a gravity field it gravitates toward the center of the gravity field. When you see a stimuli it dictates a response. Do you guys not understand it? Because it is demonstrable and observable.

Again, he causes everything. Why cause the evil to manifest? Why cause Lucifer to rebel?

>>695724

Oh only from man? What about Lucifer? Or do you not believe in him? You are an idiot. Don't reply again.

>>695724

It's not his knowledge you winnie the pooh moron. It's his ability and exercisation of the ability to control everything. This has nothing to do with his omniscience, only his omnipotence and his controlling of everything.

You guys are either controlling me, or you got hit on the head worse than I did.

>>695727

Satan would have no power on Earth if it wasn't for the fallen state of man. It all comes back to humanity willingly disconnecting itself from God.

>>695728

God not infringing on your free exercise of will doesn't make him culpable for your actions.

>>695726

>allowing an event is causing it

No. I can allow someone to smoke, without being the direct cause of their smoking. I can allow someone to win a race, without being morally responsible for their achievement.

>the universe is mechanical…gravity…stimuli

If you don't accept free-will then you have bigger problems to worry about than gravity and stimuli. Keep thinking and seeking.

>>695728

He doesn't need to micromanage every event because he has a final solution for evil already in effect. All evil is subject to destruction and hellfire. All good will be retained into eternity and rewarded in his presence.

He allows us a few years on earth to be tested and to grow towards him, or to separate from him and seek our own destruction.

>>695731

No the Bible says he cause it. CAUSES IT.

>>695736

It also says he is fully righteous, there is no darkness or evil in him. So you have to get the total picture, not just cherry picked verses. If God sends down destruction like in Sodom and Gomorrah then it is justified and not evil, although it is a huge calamity.

When it says "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things." - Isaiah 45:7 esv

This doesn't mean that God sins, but he creates the possibilities where such things arise. And in some cases he does cause calamities (flood, plagues, etc). But those are justified.

A book can say a fish is a monkey, but a fish ain't no monkey. How do you know he creates possibilities and does not cause things as apposed to what the bible teaches (that he causes all things)?

>>695739

already answered. >>695738

Don't cherry pick 1 verse, read full contexts, read multiple verses, realize what's going on.

Okay, why can only Jesus create his own food? Surely you're not gonna argue that that is good.

>>695746

Mothers create milk for their babies.

>>695749

Breast milk comes from the food that you eat. She can't create bread to continue to produce breast milk. You are winnie the pooh stupid.

>>695751

Jesus created food out of food. Try again.

Nesessary evil. Without it there would be no conflicts and honestly no good story. Every author will have one in their story and to no surprise our god made it so. Its not interesting if there is nothing to overcome. Not a theological view just a random thought. Take it as you will

>>695634

>I'm curious to your beliefs as to why god is not even slightly evil if he controls everything and evil happens

Evil is the absence of good, good becomes absent in man due as the result of internal disorder, which man himself has arrived at using his own free will. As discordance increases, divine nature is suffocated. At moderate levels, this could be expressed as interrupting natural order to suit your own needs with high exclusivity, for example; at increasingly extreme levels (usually unnaturally high) it would be to disrupt any function in nature at all even at personal cost.

Read Augustine of Hippo, he's early church and a lot of his research on the matter carried down to the rest of Christianity, and also Western secular philosophy. If you are truly interested with sincerity and intellectual curiosity, that should assist you in your studies (on multiple subjects even). You can also read, although he's more on the Catholic side but still of interest, Thomas Aquinas who also talked about the nature of evil (in amidst his other scholarly work).

>>695666

>I am very evil

I doubt that, if you were you would be too dis-concordant to be able to post here, at least without assistance of some kind.

>>695910

I don't really agree with the proposition. It would be well and good for the divine to be reflected as perfectly as possible.

>>695910

This makes perfect sense if you believe that God is a truly neutral and indifferent creator. I don't know what to believe, personally, but I don't like the idea that of such a cold and unfeeling high power.

>>695961

>but I don't like the idea that of such a cold and unfeeling high power.

*but I don't like the idea of a higher power who is so cold and unfeeling

I am having a hard time formulating sentences today, please forgive me.

>>695754

He created food out of thin air. He had a few bits of bread and fish, but even if he created them only with other food we can't multiply our food which is my point. God is an evil winnie the pooh cunt.

>>695685

>And why is our reward for worshiping Jesus just going to a city in the sky?

When your concept of afterlife is city in the sky and some prisons with cages, this means that you seriously need to educate yourself about the subject instead of posting some retarded pleb imaginations

>>696290

>>696291

This is lot of talk for a man who doesnt even know meanings of "Satan" and "devil". Also, winnie the pooh off with your retarded protestard """opinions"""

>>696299

1)No, im not OP

2)Diabolos (Devil) means slanderer, not "Satan". "Satan" doesnt mean "rebel", it means "enemy" and wasnt always exclusively used for devil.

3)I think you protestants give that guy more prestige than he could even dream of. I mean, I know stories about demons posing as false gods, but there you go, you outright named the guy as """sovereign"""" and actualopposite of God. (and before you throw "le master of this world" meme, educate yourself about its meaning instead of spewing gn*sticoid garbage. It means that devil influences world via sins of men. If sinister chancellor influences duchy of a retarded duke, that doesnt make chancellor dukes sovereign).

4)No, God didnt annihilate demons because "le challenge", he didnt,because God loves them just as rest of the creation. God is eternal and doesnt change his mind, he wont suddenly hate and destroy someone for "He Is Love"

5)Unironically using "Jehovah"

6)No, story of Job contains some of the "in return for nothing" part", but isnt the whole story. In fact, Job starts to complain, God answers him, but is forgiven.

7)Using CAPSLOCK

>>696302

Oh yes and the most important part. No its not about """Sovereignty and Integrity."""" and this is retarded

its about free will. You cannot be Image of God and supreme creation without free will.

>>696321

>>696323

>>696325

>Cherrypicking verses (like a devil btw) to justify his retarded heretical ideas

Enjoy your ban, redditor """theologian"""