/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>687606

He was too much of a hardcore Platonist and taught the pre-existence of the souls. He also taught hell is basically just purgatory and that at the end of time everyone would be saved, including Satan and the demons.

Also, despite popular belief, Origen was NOT a subordinationist. He was extremely orthodox in his understanding of God, it's just that it was only the 3rd century and not a lot of the language specific to Nicene-Constantinopolitan definition had developed yet and Origen was attempting to use Platonic and Stoic concepts to explain the divinity like referring to Jesus as "second God". He does on multiple occasions refer to the Trinity as being one in nature and essence and preaches the eternal generation of the Son and eternal procession of the Holy Spirit.

I know he was anathematized as Constantinople part 2 but really I don't think he should be considered a true material heretic as he lived before many doctrines were fully defined and he was a very devout man who loved Christ.

>>687606

After looking into him a bit he seems to be an incredibly important Church Father but what he was writing about might have been heretical or to complicated for laymen to receive and would lead people to commit heresy. Apparently a TON of his works were burned for being heretical while at the same time the works that were saved were actually very important. Remember at the time the Church had to be very strict with heresy because of how loosely organized it was so even speculative documents were probably considered to dangerous.

>>687606

https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/church-history/sixth-century/the-fifth-ecumenical-council

Open a book, or in this case, a website.

>>687606

Believing in preexistence of souls

>>687612

>He also taught hell is basically just purgatory and that at the end of time everyone would be saved, including Satan and the demons.

Not a heresy though, and some saints also held this view. Origenist version of apokatastasis, however, was condemned due to involvement of said preexistence of souls.

>>687616

ok salvation of demons maybe is…

>>687616

Hello Bishop Robert Barron.

>>687618

So here is the thing telling people "Well you'll get out anyway and live with Jesus even if you do go to hell." You are damning souls to hell and creating a VERY dangerous ideology. Yes it says in the Bible that the gates of will be thrown open and everyone will be given a chance to repent but being in hell is literally your soul being tormented until then. Purgatory is something else it is a debated but one belief is that it is a sort of cleansing fire that scrubs any leftover sin off of you and it is uncomfortable.

>>687612

> He also taught hell is basically just purgatory

Which makes sense because eternal punishment doesn't really serve a purpose except as a scare tactic. People should be punished for their sins, but punishment should primarily be focused on rehabilitation, not sadism.

>>687624

>Well you'll get out anyway and live with Jesus even if you do go to hell

The main purpose of conversions is to have a relationship with God. Making hell the main focus only creates false converts who would gladly be sinners and godless if not for the threat of being tortured. Is that what our Lord truly wants? People converting because they are terrified of him??

>>687632

>>687633

God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9).

Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20).

God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10).

Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25).

Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (Romans 1:18-32).

Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).

What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).

>>687633

>Is that what our Lord truly wants?

As opposed to obstinacy unrepentant sinners? Yes of course that is preferable. Hands down. No if ands or buts about it.

>>687633

>Making hell the main focus only creates false converts who would gladly be sinners and godless if not for the threat of being tortured. Is that what our Lord truly wants? People converting because they are terrified of him??

He wants them to revel in the love he is freely offering them if it takes the fear of eternal damnation to do it then so be it. If you actually read the bible Jesus was pretty clear about all of this.

Did Origen believe in reincarnation? I sort of remember hearing that before. Maybe it wasn't Origen I'm thinking of.

>>687646

I think no, but certain new agers have taken things he said, like about preexistence of souls, and twisted them to claim he taught reincarnation. I think Manly Hall might have originated the claim in his book 'Reincarnation', and it got repeated by new agers like Shirley Maclaine. Some of Origen's quotes have been compared to Eastern concepts like karma, i.e. "The cause of each one’s actions is a pre-existing one; and then every one, according to his merits, is made by God either a vessel unto honor or dishonor … it is due to previous causes."

>>687606

Here is the anathemas against Origen:

https://www.comparativereligion.com/anathemas.html

>>687633

I…have to agree with others on that part. People are morons and certain threat is needed to maintain order…sadly.

>>687657

Thanks.

So as I said, church didn't condemn apokatastasis as in whole, but only origenism, that except for what I said about preexistence of souls, also included apparent Docetism, gnostic influences (ironically) and what seems like pantheism.

also

>IF anyone shah say that Christ, of whom it is said that he appeared in the form of God, and that he was united before all time with God the Word, and humbled himself in these last days even to humanity, had (according to their expression) pity upon the divers falls which had appeared in the spirits united in the same unity (of which he himself is part), and that to restore them he passed through divers classes, had different bodies and different names, became all to all, an Angel among Angels, a Power among Powers, has clothed I himself in the different classes of reasonable beings with a form corresponding to that class, and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man: let him be anathema.

Alien fanboys in neighboring thread btfo.

>>687636

>if it takes threatening to love me, then so be it

It’s too bad you don’t realize how screwed up that sounds. If someone has to be threatened to “love you,” it’s obvioualy not sincere. It shows that the intimidator has nothing in them that is appealing to someone else, so they have to resort to threats.

Literally no other loving relationship works like that. No wonder people are repulsed by Christianity nowadays.

>>687635

>>687713

>we need hell in order to make people obedient to the words of God!

People should obey and trust God out of love for him, not out of terror. God is not a mob boss. That’s like putting a knife to someone’s throat and telling them “love me, or I will cut your head off.”

That is NOT how you convert souls, guys.

>>687634

>they choose to burn in a lake of fire for eternity

My gut tells me that you don’t really believe that. Why? Because normal people simply don’t think in this manner. The average person is a hardcore hedonist, so you really expect me to believe that people’s choose to go to hell?

One of the biggest reasons we have technological advances is for humans mirth and ease. To say that people “choose to go to hell” contradicts everything we know about human motivation and reinforcement. Even the martyrs don’t really choose to be martyrs; they do it because denying Jesus would result in a much worse fate than being boiled or flayed, and they will receive a reward in Heaven.

>>687717

>People should obey and trust God out of love for him, not out of terror. God is not a mob boss

look man, I agree with you that it shouldn't be like that. But considering that vast majority of people are egoistic morons, they need some threat to maintain order and stable society. You and I dont want it to be so, but thats a sad objective fact.

>>687719

Orthodoxy at least mostly views hell as state of soul of active rejection and repulsion of God rather than place of punishment. So "choosing to go to hell" makes good sense here. Catholicism, I believe, says that its more about isolation from God so it also makes sense there.

>>687719

It doesn't take long for hedonism to turn into a personal hell. All an addict has to do to end it is stop and we don't. Ask an alcoholic or a junky. Right under the surface of pleasure is that love of death. Normal people don't think in that manner because we deceive ourselves. We however act in that manner.

>>687621

>this meme again

He didn't say that those in Hell will be saved.

He said that maybe, possibly everyone will repent before they die, thus avoiding going to Hell in the first place.

>>687757

At what point does a Muslim suicide bomber repent? In the nanosecond between pressing the button to die for Allah and exploding?

>>687765

post mortem.

>>687632

Correct me if I'm wrong but the faith does not suppose that human beings deserve salvation but in fact the opposite. That God allows any means for a sinner to enter grace is an amazing demonstration of His mercy.

>>687765

God is omnipotent and nothing is stopping Him from revealing Himself to such bomber at whatever time He wants, even in his last seconds. And if that bomber then, even when he is a fraction of second from death, responds with a desire to repent - then we know that God is both omnipotent and faithful to His promises of answering every trustful and confident prayer.

This is unlikely and it seems that most probably such bomber would receive no such special grace and so die in sin, but God's mercy is infinite and if He wanted, He could give a sinner such grace.