/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>678259

Think outside of the box, anon.

>>678259

Your first mistake is assuming we don't have free will.

Tell us exactly why you don't believe it.

>>678261

In the times we are living this is a quite out of box thinking.

>>678263

You're the one who should explain why free will exists. But anyway everything is predetermined by its causation.

>>678265

>You're the one who should explain why free will exists

Because I experience it. I can choose to either get up and get a drink or not, whether I do or do not is an act of my will, freely chosen by me.

>>678267

>Because I experience it.

You feel the consequences of it, you don't choose anything.

>I do or do not is an act of my will, freely chosen by me.

That is your brain choosing the most favorable action given your lifetime structure.

>>678268

Where does the soul fit into this view of yours? I hope you're not yet another physicalist brainlet but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt

>>678269

The point is that if everything is predetermined nothing else matters. Christianity is the only thing keeping me alive but this problem just seems unsolvable.

>>678271

Physical determinism is incompatible with Christianity. The physical is nothing more than a projection of the spiritual layer of reality, proven by the fact God can alter physical reality in any way He chooses. What was the 'cause' of Christs resurrection? Divine intervention. So yes we have free will because the brain doesn't determine who you are, your soul does. And your soul will reside in either heaven or hell after your death awaiting the resurrection of the body.

So your question is moot. We do have free will. Physical determinism is false.

>>678273

I don't see how that proves it false. I'm not denying the soul but I don't see how it changes anything when we are predetermined by our physical factors.

>>678274

>we are predetermined by our physical factors.

We're not though. I'll say it again, physical determinism is false. So you're wrong.

>>678275

How am I wrong then?

>>678276

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" -Deuteronomy 30:19

>>678276

Your will isn't determined by your physical body. Your will comes from your soul, which is immaterial and thus outside the influence of physical cause and effect. Thus you do have free will because there are things that have no physicality that can influence the world with no prior cause (God being the prime example)

>>678259

>>678276

His argument is as follows:

1. Let's assume for now physical determinism is true, that is to say all things are determined by material things, with free will out of the picture.

2. God and human souls are not physical (God is transcendent, whereas human souls are extra-material/spiritual)

3. God intervenes via divine intervention, such as miracles.

4. Following from 2 and 3, some causes are caused by a non physical source. This contradicts the statement 1.

Therefore physical determinism is false.

>>678280

This

>>678277

You choose life because you think its going to be a hard but good life, the little do you know when you get born…

>>678281

I'm not denying non-physical things, its that they have no part in the free will part. Are all souls the same and if not doesn't that influence your choices, what about your experience on earth, that seems to do it just as well.

>>678259

>>678265

>Everything is predetermined by its causation

So let me get this straight, you are determining what should and shouldn't be through the narrow lens of physics?

I remember the argument was the following; if you roll a bowling ball down a bowling lane, nothing the bowling ball can do can change its course. The universe can be likened to a bowling ball because it is material.

Did it ever occur to the idiot that proposed this model that we aren't bowling balls? You see, it's just a false analogy that would make anyone say that everything it 100% predetermined by its causation. All it is is an attempt to stretch physics beyond its narrow specialty and attempt to explain people with it.

So tl;dr stop appropriating the science of physics in your theology.

>>678277

You choose life because you think its going to be a hard but good life, the little do you know when you get born…

>>678281

I'm not denying non-physical things, its that they have no part in the free will part. Are all souls the same and if not doesn't that influence your choices, what about your experience on earth, that seems to do it just as well.>>678286

>you are determining what should and shouldn't be through

I'm determined to say it.

>the narrow lens of physics?

It doesn't matter whatever we talk about physics or not, is it so difficult to look at the core of the question.

>nothing the bowling ball can do can change its course

Of course because in the grand scheme of things there is no such thing as a ball, just an object going to predetermined destination.

>>678285

>its that they have no part in the free will part

How do you reconcile that with the resurrection of the dead? If your soul has no influence on your will or personality then how is your will or personality preserved after death? You say you're a Christian but you have views that are outright contradictory to basic Christian doctrine.

>>678290

That's why I made the thread, I want to remove my doubts but you for sure is not helping by repeating the same thing over and over.

>>678292

I mean there's not much more to if than the fact your understanding is wrong. It's like if someone came here talking about "The moon is made of cheese guys, this really disturbs me, can anyone help?" and when people reply "The moon isn't made of cheese, you're wrong so there's nothing to worry about" you still keep saying "But what is the moon really is cheese guys!?"

The moon isn't cheese, physical determinism is false and we do have free will. That's it. Period. There isn't anything more to discuss unless you put forward something that isn't completely wrong on its face.

>>678293

The moon being made of cheese is just a problem of observing, determinism is the logic of your existence.

Your question is valid though your thought is skewed somewhat. The question is not whether you are predetermined, but WHAT is predetermined.

Dependent upon WHO you were predestined to serve would in fact change your actions by your choices you would make freely.

>>678294

>determinism is the logic of your existence

Not according to Christianity. I'm fairly convinced you're just a wild fedora tipper here to troll now. Unless you can explain how you can reconcile your ideas with the fact that your soul is responsible for your will and personality and will exist after your death then I think we're done here.

>>678289

Circular argument

I believe in predestination as a Christian because it reconciles with scripture. So I disagree he is trolling. I've seen others wrestle with these same thoughts.

>>678295

Anything other than God, it seems. That is the most fascinating phenomenon.

>>678299

I don't think you understand what predetermination is. Mind explaining my circular argument?

>>678300

That is different to what OP is proposing. OP is talking about physical determinism, that all things are determined by chains of cause and effect. That is different to the Calvanist understanding of predestination.

Physical determinism means God cannot interact with physical reality because that would be a non-physical cause to an effect. Such as the resurrection of Christ. Physical determinism means you cannot believe in miracles and thus cannot accept the divinity of Christ.

>>678304

>Physical determinism means God cannot interact with physical reality because that would be a non-physical cause to an effect. Such as the resurrection of Christ

But how does that gives you more free will, if anything his intervention nullifies it even more, doesn't it?

Ah thank you for clarifying the two

bump

>>678259

To me it feels liberating. I no longer have to dwell on making the wrong decision, because it was destined to happen anyway. Just note to not make the same mistake again and carry on.

>>678265

>But anyway everything is predetermined by its causation.

So… you're a hardcore materialist? I mean, that's mostly incompatible with Christianity. Are you Christian? Why are you asking here?

>>679319

Fr. Nectou, S.J. says you cannot have a will independent from God and that many men will be deluded to believe they can in our own age. Dude died with trips on 1777.

free will exists, don't be stupid tigga