/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship★

>>677200 (OP)

I'm sure rising from the dead after being crucified is a common magical act now a days.

>believe in science

>Jesus was just a magician

Which is it?

>She also accuses the Bible of promoting genocide and oppression against women. What do?

Ask her first of all if she can tell the difference between a recording of a historical genocide, and the advocacy of genocide in general.

"Oppression against women" is a broad category. Ask her for examples and then go through it with her. Some of them you will have to own (women should be silent in church etc.) but others (e.g. "the bible forces rape victims to marry their rapists!") are just blatant falsehoods.

>>677206

I never understood why fedoras get mad over Deuteronomy 22:28-29. It actually sounds pretty fair and reasonable imo.

>>677213

Either because they haven't read it (and also the verses immediately preceding it which actually do deal with rape) or because they can't get over the idea that fornication is a sin.

>>677218

Dangerous case of autism

>>677218

Wouldn't he come back after three days like nothing happened?

Genocide and oppress her.

>>677226

>if a hoa

How do you mess your gramma up this badly?

>>677200 (OP)

All the disciples went to their bloody deaths because magic tricks were enough to convince them?

And many of the followers of the apostles were willing to go to their bloody deaths, these people had seen the miracles preformed by the apostles as well, so I suppose the apostles were preforming magic tricks, meaning they knew what they were teaching was a lie, and were willing to go to their bloody tortured deaths for it, as well as every other Christian who preformed miracles after them.

>>677200 (OP)

>the bible promotes oppressing women and genocide

And the problem is…?

>>677231

No, "if" and "a" are both spelt correctly

>>677218

Wow you really got us.

>>677230

>>677231

He was killed mid-sentence by the Vatican's elite death squads.

>>677200 (OP)

What about Neuroscience?

My whole family are atheists and they always belittle me. My sisters call the bible a fairy tale story and act like they are wiser than God. My brother says I've been brain washed. They say I'm only christian because I must have some form of autism. Wat to do?

>>677200 (OP)

I would just go the Philosophy route, cause in philosophy, materialism, and naturalism. These are dead ends and end up going nowhere, or just end up going in circles like vid related. I would start with the basics. Ip, is ok. He's not orthodoxy on his theology, but, in terms of theology, and philosophy, i know Jay Dyer, gets memed here sometimes, but i come to like his answer regarding the, Transcendental argument, and how we ground are theology first, then go to our philosophy from there. But for instance just simple vid show how in, Philosophy we just end up going in circles with, these new age philosophies dating back to the enlightenment.

>>677268

I don't think a young woman would be touched by philosophy.

>>677254

Family is a very important Christian aspect, and you should pray for them regardless. But besides that, if they keep acting like how you say, they’re not treating you like family at all. You should distance yourself from them for now, but don’t completely abandon them.

>>677254

"For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:50

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." Matthew 23:9

Our Lord is very clear on this. You have a new family now, stick with them and hope you old family will someday join the new one.

My parents take holidays seriously. On Easter my dad kept telling me to say "Christ has risen, it's true that he has risen" in our native tongue as we knocked coloured eggs together. But then one time I was gonna buy a shirt at a mall, with a cross on it, and he was like…"it's too flashy, what are you christian or something?" Lol

So I'm really confused about them.

My mom prays but sometimes she says stuff like " you gotta work hard can't just rely on God to solve your problems…look at hobos, they're just lazy druggies most of the time, doesn't matter how much they pray.

>>677254

>My sisters call the bible a fairy tale story and act like they are wiser than God

There are a ton of philosophical and metaphysical arguments you could make to argue for the existence of God, but your sisters don't sound like they would be able to understand any of them, or at least it sounds like they wouldn't listen to you enough to even try to understand them. People like that usually just look at you with their eyes glazed over and accuse of playing word games when you try to make those sorts of arguments.

>My brother says I've been brain washed

Since he's an atheist he probably watches a lot porn, which means he literally gets his brain washed, with dopamine, every time he faps. In all seriousness though, you could try the same arguments with him if he's more receptive. If you want to be an asshole, you could also try to throw bantz back at them. Make fun of them for thinking the universe created itself.

>>677303

I Timothy 5:8: If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Mark 7 9-13: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

These passages ring a bell too though…I wish they would stop being so condescending is all I ask. Everybody does it to me when they find out I'm christian, happens at work as well. Except my Boss and his Son, they're nice.

>>677322

Yeah he does watch a lot of porn, Asian porn too. Ruined all my Lego with all his sperm. It all has to do with John 3:19-27.

I do throw bantz back at them, like "You're going to hell" and "Go eat an apple", but it never works to my advantage.

>>677331

Call him a fedorafag

In all serious I'd say look up some theologians

Or the questions thread

>>677200 (OP)

Also forgot to mention,

> She says she believe in science over the Bible

Video related

And another video which I can't embed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yto4jXOOen8

>>677200 (OP)

> She also accuses the Bible of promoting genocide and oppression against women.

nothing wrong with that

>>677200 (OP)

I feel you Brother, families can suck sometimes, my Dad is my problem. To all his redneck friends online he will say he is Christian and he will say he is in person when it suits him, but all my teenage life he always told me he didn't believe. He'll share Christian memes and templar memes all the time but never touches his bible. When I try to talk about faith and I have my apologetics in order he gets offended, attacks me for my own sins, spouts off things like "how do you know its true?" over and over, and starts quoting scifi and things like popculture scientific crap that has no strength behind it.

Came to faith from a lifetime of atheism myself, something I've realized is that you cannot change someone's mind if they don't want it to be changed. They will ask you all the questions in the world only so that they can find an "AH HA!" moment to crap on your faith and your religion, and as soon as you slap them with truth they will get more and more hostile and eventually shut down altogether.

>>677373

Shake the dust off your feet and move on. Those that have ears, let them hear.

>>677331

>I Timothy 5:8: If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Bad translation. Should be does not provide for his "own." As in, the family dependent on you in the domestic sphere. As far as this refers to your wife and biological children, true. Your biological parents, siblings, etc. aren't under your control, your duty comes first to the church.

>Mark 7 9-13: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

This isn't saying Christ endorses the traditional interpretation of "honor thy father and mother," because we see who Christ considers his father and mother in the other verses. Rather, it's pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisee's claimed view.

Just saying, none of it contradicts, you just need to read them in light of the other passages.

>>677345

Last Vid - Lol

Tell her to refute Aquinas' Summa if she's so smart.

>>677230

>All the disciples went to their bloody deaths because magic tricks were enough to convince them?

No matter what religion you believe in, there are people who have gone to their deaths in the name of beliefs you consider false.

>>677754

But the apostles were doing some of these "magic tricks" and would have seen the trickery of it. It'd be like a kid believing his grandpa can pull a coin out of his ear until he learns the trick behind it and the magic is gone.

Finger her to understand the science of how it works.

>>677639

That table looks rather hokey.

>>677639

>>677909

Yeah, that table is completely retarded.

>have Bible for 2000 years, rigth?

>read it all the time

>oh only now 1920 we find out what the bible predicted

>thanks bible for being useless until we find out something on our own and retroactively attribute it to you even though we really don't have to since most of these are horoscope tier things

>where does the light come from?

>where does the darkness go to?

<light is a particle with mass (a photon)

The reaching is strong.

>>677841

Allegedly they did. Why should I trust accounts from people who had the specific agenda of making their own religion look true?

>>677941

"Magician" as in "does tricks", not as in "does actual 'magic'".

>>677942

Ah, well, no-selling bleeding out and getting stabbed multiple times in public for awhile would be a pretty good trick. Houdini didn't even manage some sharp right hooks.

>>677947

Pre-modern medical science sucked at knowing when someone was actually dead. As recently as the 1700's someone patented a coffin with a window to the surface and a bell for the 'corpse' to ring if it turns out by accident that they were buried prematurely.

>>677947

Also, y'know, I'd be a lot more willing to accept that all these things actually happened if there was one person who reported a single one of them that wasn't also a believer in his claims to Messiah status.

>>677954

If it actually happened, then any objective observer would agree that it happened, even if they think it was some sort of trick (e.g. wasn't actually dead, etc.)

>>677955

Yes? And that is exactly what we find. Every person who was a witness to Jesus deeds believed he was who he said he was. Asking for a source that doesn't believe his claim is asinine since anyone who saw Jesus ministry with their own eyes would have known he was the real deal.

>>677957

First of all, we don't even have any written records directly from people who saw him with their own eyes. And for another thing, if we believe the testimonies about him, why shouldn't we believe comparable testimonies about miracles performed by bodhisattvas etc.?

>>677964

Which explains why it mixes up Hebrew and Aramaic, I suppose. Despite the fact that Jesus most likely taught primarily in Aramaic, meaning any apostle of his would be familiar with it.

>>677966

Matthew originally wrote his gospel in Hebrew for a primarily Jewish audience. It was translated to Greek later.

>>677967

And the Hebrew-language manuscripts, or even fragments, or any evidence whatsoever of this claim, are where?

>>677970

Eusebius quoting Papias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis

>Therefore Matthew put the logia in an ordered arrangement in the Hebrew language, but each person interpreted them as best he could.

>>677971

That's one person, and even the wiki page you linked to mentions different theories about what he means, including the possibility that he was simply mistaken- he was after all still only human.

>>677973

There is no reason to doubt it. It's perfectly congruent with the facts. The Gospel of Matthew is written from a jewish perspective to jews. It places a high emphasis on showing how Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecy. It makes perfect sense that a gospel written by a jew to jews would be written in Hebrew.

>>677974

Then again, why is there not even a single manuscript or fragment, or any evidence except for one ambiguous quote?

>>677975

Because papyrus is a notoriously poor medium for preserving writing over centuries. Finding mostly intact papyri from 2000 years ago is a rare occurrence. It's likely that the Gospel of Matthew once translated into Greek was only preserved in that language as the majority of the people in the region spoke Greek, not Hebrew and the Jews showed little interest in preserving the gospel themselves.

>>677345

Einstein was not a Christian and believed in an impersonal god with no afterlife

>t can’t watch the video right now but saw the thumbnail

>>677950

They still screw up. More than one morgue story about a stiff that wasn't quite dead.

>>677955

Look at it this way; his execution was pretty public. Unless the local authorities went through a big production of faking all the injuries recorded, which they have no reason to, he's probably not going to get up and dust himself off if he's a normal person.

>>677959

>we don't even have any written records directly from people who saw him with their own eyes

Well, you do, unless you think the apostles are also fictional…but then you'd have to explain their followers, like Polycarp. He's unquestionably historical, and a direct disciple of John by all accounts, so John would certainly have have to had existed as a consequence to take him under his wing. And this line can be developed further, if needed.

That said, we are lucky with Polycarp since he was a dynamo. We certainly know a lot about what happened in that era, but there is also a lot of history from then as well that just simply doesn't exist in a reliable format. See >>677977 for an example, written records are less available as you go further and further back, even in a society that produced literate educated audiences like the Romans by all accounts tried to do. Which why, for example, the graffiti at Pompeii is so remarkable. It's a preserved slice of their society that we wouldn't have otherwise.

>>678001

>They still screw up. More than one morgue story about a stiff that wasn't quite dead.

And you're not exactly helping your case here.

Wait, who taught Matthew and them to write?

>>678009

Hebrews were surprisingly literate according to stuff found on archeological sites. Might've been taught by parents, someone else close, in order to read the Torah - hence he might've only be able to write in Hebrew

>>678003

How so? Are you talking about the resurrection? His injuries were not likely to lead to a situation where he was mistaken dead, for a start, and you also must account for the tomb being tightly sealed for three days. With that trauma, and more importantly no water or other nutrition to replace the blood lost through the nails and the spear, survival for an ordinary human would have been impossible. But, then, he wasn't ordinary.

>>678014

In general literacy was not as good as it was in recent times but it was still highly valued, and something that people at various social strata would have had. Obviously rich people would have tended to be more literate, but not exclusively. As such, historical illiteracy is somewhat exaggerated, usually.

>>678020

>In general literacy was not as good as it was in recent times but it was still highly valued, and something that people at various social strata would have had. Obviously rich people would have tended to be more literate, but not exclusively. As such, historical illiteracy is somewhat exaggerated, usually.

Maybe, but I remember they found writings from a common foot soldier (based on location, equipment) in a Hebrew fort from antiquity and there's other evidence than some poor commoners knew how to read and write. Matthew knowing how to write is improbable at worst and, being perhaps the literate one of the disciples (John may have learned Greek later, who knows) was completely reasonable from even a 10% literacy rate (he had 12 disciples, makes sense one could write)

>>677934

t. didn't even see the video

>it is by the names of certain demons, and by the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of miraculous power

Why would jews accuse Christians of practicing sorcery if they'd never seen them preform miracles? And if those Christians were just doing illusions why would the be willing to go to their violent, torturous deaths for something they knew was false?

>>678068

I refer you to Hume's principle that to establish a miracle the evidence and/or testimony must be of such a nature that it would be more miraculous for it to be false than for the supposed miracle to have happened. Hearsay written in ancient books doesn't really fit that criterion for me, though you're welcome to explain how it does.

>>678075

Hume's principle relies on confirmation bias. He decrees that, because he has not witnessed miracles, he cannot rationally believe in them. That's fine, but it's an illogical argument.

To a rational person, whether a miracle happened or not depends on your perception of reliability of the witnesses and the probability that they were mistaken.

I am not of the opinion that the miracles happened outside of natural laws- what Christ did any perfect person could do… except no one is perfect but Christ. However, there may come a time when we understand how he did what he did.

That doesn't make it any less miraculous. God doing the improbable, when we put our faith in Him, is in itself miraculous and because faith in God is an ingredient in the miraculous, it only stands to reason that the skeptics and atheists will never have experienced it and, even if they saw it performed, would swear it was illusion- favoring their cognitive bias.

>>678090

>To a rational person, whether a miracle happened or not depends on your perception of reliability of the witnesses and the probability that they were mistaken.

My point exactly- to rephrase slightly, one should only conclude a miracle has happened if the witness being mistaken is more improbable than a miracle happening. A miracle being, by definition, a highly improbable thing- probable things aren't considered miracles.

>>678139

>A miracle being, by definition, a highly improbable thing

And highly improbably to make an illusion of

>>678139

Also, this still doesn't explain why so many "magicians" would be willing to go to their violent, tortureous, humiliating deaths for something they know they are faking

>>678139

Right, but what's I'm saying is Hume ignores the reliability of the witnesses for his own confirmation bias.

Twelve guys all saw Jesus alive at once. One of them definitely touched his wounds. They were sure it was his physical body resurrected, not a vision.

That they saw Jesus up and walking around is clear from like >>678152 says, their willingness to suffer, preach, and die for the message.

I don't know of any situation that creates such an event besides resurrection. I mean, Jesus was clearly dead and placed in a tomb with a rock bigger than he could move- the Roman's wouldn't have taken him off if they weren't absolutely sure.

So, considering the amount of witnesses who were sure they saw what they saw. The incredibly high improbability that what they saw was something else. The answer is either that they're all lying or Jesus was resurrected.

There's no incentive for the lying- look at what they got from it in temporal terms. Thus, Jesus is risen.