[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / 8cup / arepa / asatru / christ / fascist / imouto / lovelive / vg ]

/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Email
Comment *
File
Password (Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: 0de2cc503966713⋯.mp4 (151.65 KB, 480x320, 3:2, 3457990562 0586.mp4)

d600cd No.675762

>Ask why you guys venerate those who have passed away

>Linked me to 2 Maccabees

>It's about an individual who interceded several dead Jews, so they wouldn't have sins, including a moral sin (idolatry), at the time of "resurrection".

How is this an example of the physically dead interceding for our sins?

I don't have the greatest reading comprehension. So, did I miss something?

051fb9 No.675770

That's a pretty bad example, but it seems they might have been arguing for prayers for the dead, not veneration of the saints. Even with that it seems like an argument against the Roman Catholic view of praying for the dead, as only those with only venial sins supposedly go to purgatory


abd6a9 No.675773

>>675762

can you link where you asked?


9a83ab No.675780

>Actually reading the Maccabees

What, did you expect it to be scriptural?


52bfa1 No.675781

>>675780

>Not reading the Maccabees

This is why modern Christianity is so cucked


e22d38 No.676002

>>675762

Read the rest. Especially part about Jeremiah.

As for this fragment:

<40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.

Of the donaries, &c. That is, of the votive offerings, which had been hung up in the temples of the idols, which they had taken away when they burnt the port of Jamnia, (v. 9.) contrary to the prohibition of the law. Deut. vii. 25.

All such things should have been destroyed, (Jos. vii. and 1 K. xv. W.) or melted down. Perhaps the soldiers intended to bring them to Judas. He excused them charitably, and hoped that their temporal chastisement might have served to expiate their fault.

<41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.

<42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

Some copies, "that they might not, on account of the sin committed, be entirely blotted out."

They were convinced that some sins might be forgiven in the other world, particularly when the living interceded.

The Jews began to pray for the dead after the captivity, when the prophets had more clearly explained what took place after death.

Yet the doctrine and practice might still be as ancient as the world.

If it had not prevailed before, Judas would never have entertained such sentiments.

The Jews admit a sort of purgatory for "the prevaricators of Israel," which differs from hell only in duration. They assert that the damned of their nation are exempt from suffering on the sabbath.

Excommunication might be taken off from the deceased.

<43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

Sacrifices for the dead were not enjoined, but the practice was then established, and this author take every opportunity of proving the resurrection against the Sadducees, who then began to appear. The Church of Christ has adopted the same practice.

Our adversaries confess that such was the opinion of the Jews, and of the ancient doctors of the Church. But they declare it superstitious, and deny the authority of these books, which has been sufficiently established. Could such holy personages authorize superstition? Would Christ and his apostles have tolerated it? S. Paul prayed for Onesiphorus after his decease. 2 Tim. i. 16. See Mat. xii. 33. Lu. xvi. 9. and 1 Cor. iii. 13. and xv. 29.

<44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

<45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

udas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy; either because they might be excused from mortal sin by ignorance, or might have repented of their sin at least at their death.

Charity requires us to judge thus, when there are no positive proofs to the contrary.

Pope John VIII. answered the bishops of France, that those who died fighting against infidels were saved.

Judas might entertain the like hopes, though they are not always well grounded.

<46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

This text is so clear, that our adversaries judge it best to deny the book to be canonical. As that has been authentically proved, we shall only add that the Greek version, though differing in many points, is here as express as the Vulg."considering that the best grace is laid up for those who sleep in piety. Holy and pious is the thought. Wherefore he made reconciliation (or expiation) for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin," or punishment due to it.

Sin is often taken for the punishment; and this effect of mortal sin may be remitted in purgatory, when the person has sincerely repented in this life.

To pass over other proofs, we will only mention S. Aug. (hær. liii.) and S. Bernard, (Cant. lxvi.) who plainly account those "heretics," who deny purgatory. It is also worthy of notice that Judas, who acted thus charitably, was the high priest and defender of the true faith; and that the Jews still pray for the dead, as the book Mahzor, published by Genebrard, 1569, evinces. There they say, "Let him rest in peace," and "ye angels of peace come forth to meet him." But this is acknowledged by Munster and Fagius, (in Deut. xiv.) and by Whitaker


705017 No.676108

>>675762

parable of the rich man and lazerus. rich man prayed for his brothers, abraham said they have the prophets.

this parable represents the inverse: the dead praying for the living. therefore the standard is the same, the answer to the apocryphal example is that the dead guy who committed idolatry had the prophets who rebuked idolatry continually.


fe43e3 No.676711

If you can pray God for me why can't a holy person who is dead pray God for me? Why should the effect of prayer stop in death?


c65396 No.676720

>>676711

They don't know who you are


9a83ab No.676723

>>675781

No, modern translations is why.


362a0d No.676803

File: a85583e60d4ea90⋯.png (129.3 KB, 406x295, 406:295, 99A56832-AE62-4282-8378-F2….png)

>>676108

>>rich man prayed for his brothers,

>Guy praying to physically dead people does to hell

you didn't think that through enough


e22d38 No.676984

>>676803

>Brothers of rich man were dead

Dfq?


b81d4a No.677282

>>676720

People on this board ask for prayers from people they don’t know all the time. In fact I would say it’s charitable to pray for someone you don’t know.


5d8e13 No.677295

Praying for the dead and the dead praying for us are two separate, though not totally unrelated, issues. Veneration of the dead is also a separate issue, as I don't consider asking for someone's prayers whether dead or alive to be a direct act of veneration. My assumption is that you're mostly interested in whether the dead pray for the living.

2 Macabees also has a passage showing the intercession of the dead for the living in chapter 15 (the last chapter). It speaks about Onias and Jeremias interceding for the Jews.

Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews:

After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty:

Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.

Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:

Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.


5d8e13 No.677297

>>676108

The rich man isn't the best example of intercession of the dead, since the rich man was presumably in hell, but it at least shows the dead think of the living.


5d8e13 No.677299

>>675762

>>675770

Idolatry is a mortal sin because it is a grave matter, but in Catholic doctrine, one's culpability for a sin is dependent also on knowledge and intent. Someone may commit an action that is materially a mortal sin, but in the particular circumstances, it might be a venial sin for them due to those factors. You shouldn't presume with absolute certainty that every one of those dead died in mortal sin. Likewise, it is possible that someone dies in mortal sin, but they leave no evidence of it to others.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / 8cup / arepa / asatru / christ / fascist / imouto / lovelive / vg ]