/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>674558

Literally no Catholic or Orthodox is a Pelagian. Stop. When we mean "good works" we obviously mean those good works that proceed from faith and are truly Christ working through us as we are members of His body.

>>674567

But you believe that if you don't pick up your end, you'll go to hell. And that belief sends you to hell. Because you don't pick up your end. Abide in me, I abide in you. That's what He says.

>>674572

Do you believe God forces faith and salvation on us?

>>674576

How on earth did I imply that?

>>674581

You say

>But you believe that if you don't pick up your end, you'll go to hell.

So God offers you grace but you don't get to choose to respond or not?

>>674558

Believe and keep commandments, why is that so hard to understand?

>Christ absolved the sins of people in the future

>still warned people not to sin or they'll go to hell

Hm.

>>674589

God offers everyone grace. You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Not "be freeing you."

You are not Jesus so how you know what he think?

Do you know how much it offends Jesus do you?

>>674594

I will refer you to >>674595, as it still applies.

God is outside of time. You accept his forgiveness once, for all your sins, its ALL YOUR SINS.

>>674598

you bet your damn ass I know how he feels.

>>674598

Pathetic, timmy. Now everyone here knows that's the new name I gave you.

>>674600

No. Christ warned us explicitly not to sin.

Mark 9:43-48

>And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

If what you're saying is true, Christ wouldn't tell us to do this.

>>674600

>>674558

can I keep going to catholic mass if i belive in OSAS?

The theology sounds solid and well,my works arent even that great to begin with.

I wouldn't bet on them.

>>674605

Who is He speaking to? To those whom He has told "your faith has saved you," or to those which He has not made any statement of "being saved" to?

>>674607

I wouldn't recommend it.

>Do you know how much it offends Jesus if you believe you have to do good works to maintain your salvation?

We don't do works to "maintain" salvation because salvation is something that occurs after your particular judgement.

>>674610

I'm tired of repeating myself.

>>674600

>>674610

No, I'm not done with you yet. Are you saying that God doesn't completely forgive you the moment you accept his forgiveness?

Outside. Of. Time.

>>674615

God forgives you when you repent but he doesn't forgive you for the sins you might commit in the future. Repentance means turning away from sin and a desire to live righteously.

>>674607

>can I keep going to catholic mass if i belive in OSAS?

I guess, being in the presence of our Lord during eucharist is certainly not a bad thing. But you're not Catholic, you know that to be Catholic you have to accept 100% of what the Church teaches. And don't even think about receiving eucharist because you'd be commiting a terrible sacrilege.

>>674608

He was obviously addressing people who believed in Him, why would He bother saying that to unbelievers since they're going to hell anyway?

>>674621

You can attend mass, just don't take communion since you are clinging to heresy and therefore are in mortal sin.

>>674608

Also 1 Corinthians 15

>[1] Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; [2] By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

>>674621

>i AM a catholic.

No you're not if you believe in OSAS. It is condemned by the Church and if you persist knowing that, you're a formal heretic and you're automatically out of the Church.

>im not sure if i can keep being one.too much pressure and requirements

Well Luther had the same problem. Go figure.

>>674623

See?

this why i dont want to be a christian anymore.

I should have PM'd OP and talked in peace.

>>674626

I'm confused… do you think people are being mean when they simply tell you the truth? You do realize that we are in fact being charitable with you, taking the time to explain your faith to you, right?

>>674620

Didn't have to read all of this. He's not catholic, thank the Lord.

>>674620

>why would He bother saying that to unbelievers since they're going to hell anyway?

I often ask myself the same question.

>>674626

You may always speak to me in peace, brother.

>>674625

I think God wants me to suffer.

a world where you can lose your salvation is like a torture chamber of uncertainity.

>>674630

TBQH I read many tomes on christian unversalism but even then continued with nofap. I dont think osas makes people sin wantomly as many assert.

maybe i should contact a priest and not an internet guru!

>>674605

To expand on this, do you think that, instead of healing you, Jesus would force you to spend eternity as an amputee if he has forgiven you?

>>674558

I grew up in the Reformed tradition, attended a Reformed Bible college, and ended up actually becoming Independent Baptist after a study of Scripture from a consistent literal, historical-grammatical hermeneutic.

I had a crisis of faith as I sought to interpret the Scriptures, 'sola Scriptura', and then looked at how the early church interpreted them. We don't see 'sola fide' in the early church. Period. Baptism and salvation, as well as the real presence of Christ in communion, the importance of Tradition in the interpretation of Holy Scripture, etc. are all prevalent in the early church. I was in the midst of writing a Master's thesis on OSAS at an unaccredited Baptist Bible college when I came into this crisis, was unable to resolve it, and left my Baptist Church. I can't hold to papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, etc., and I believe that the Catholic Church does not have continuity with the early church, especially after Vatican II.

I don't honestly see how OSAS can be defended, particularly since we don't see it arise until the a post-Enlightenment approach to the Scriptures is adopted and it is read outside of its intended context.

>"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22 NKJV)

>"And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart." (Galatians 6:9 NKJV)

>"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" (Philippians 2:12 NKJV)

>"This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme." (1 Timothy 1:18-20 NKJV)

>"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." (1 Timothy 4:16 NKJV)

I understand proof texting isn't the answer. I did that for years in Reformed Presbyterian catechism class and later as I wrote from a Baptist viewpoint.

>>674632

You do also realize God gave us the ability to repent and wash our sins via confession? Drop the OSAS, go to confession, talk to the priest and try not to sin.

>>674633

Again, you're under the presumption Christ forgave sins in advance. He obviously tells us sin leads to hell. I don't know how He could've been more clear, don't sin or you'll go to hell.

>>674636

Ah, the classic wall of text to overpower.

I'll read it, just to appease your dumb ads.

>continue in His goodness

Those who do not are the seeds sowed among the rocks, the thorns, the path. They were never saved.

You know what? I was going to respond to every single point you posted, but I will just repeat myself one last time.

Do you believe that God, who is outside of time, forgives you for all of your sins the moment you accept His complete forgiveness and sacrifice for all the sins of humanity, or that he is experiencing time alongside you?

Refute this in any way, you're saying that his sacrifice was a one time thing. It might as well have been only for that time you swiped a pack of smokes at the bar.

>>674638

What about you, then? When was the last time you sinned?

>>674640

No. Both Christ and His Apostles go through great lenghts to tell us not to sin and they're obviously addressing believers. If salvation was as easy as saying 'I believe' the narrow gate wouldn't be narrow. On a personal note, I will not gamble with this preposition of osas, I will not take the chance.

>Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven

>>674646

the book I posted isn't even about OSAS.

You should give it a read, seriously.

>>674646

>saying "I believe"

Jesus makes it clear that he's not interested in people who only give him lip service.

>>674640

Are you a Universalist?

>>674646

Ah, didn't read your whole post. The verse you quoted was what I was referring to.

What is it to believe? To truly believe? To have faith? Does true faith ever leave you completely?

If you accept Jesus into your heart, is he gonna say "tigga, you got drunk again. I'm outta here" or is his forgiveness less than 70 times seven?

atheist anon here, saw thread on main page of 8

don't have time to read whole thread now,

but since I went to mass a handful of time I do like the good works as a just in case bit with atheism and hence have an issue with the protestant doctrine of only saying the magic words and being rewarded instead of actually being a good person. so I like this

>>674567

and also this as a theological point

>>674576

and I would like the other poster to address the point of this post

>>674589

thank you for the theological stimulation.

>>674653

I would like to be one, then I come across news of serial killers or p0rn industry and ponder.

>>674657

I'd like to be one as well, but nobody deserves salvation.

>>674651

Exactly, which means you actually have to DO something to be saved. And it's not a one time thing either.

>>674655

>[16] He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. [17] All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

The Apostle explicitly tells us mortal sin leads to hell. I don't know what else to tell you. God will forgive our sins if repent, but keep in mind that 'God is not mocked'.

>>674661

This is making a distinction between blasphemy of the holy spirit, the one unforgivable sin, to other sins one commits before or after accepting salvation.

>>674663

Ugh, this is why I don't generally argue using the Bible, you can twist and turn every line as you see fit.

>But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

>Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here we have st. Paul telling Christians what will lead them to hell (ie sins unto death) after they have accepted the faith. If you can't understand this, it makes no sense to go on, believe what you will.

>>674668

Classic diversion. You didn't address my point.

>>674667

Well, for example I come across a news of a mexican hitman who killed 2K people in cruel ways.

can such men be redeemed?

how long will it take?

can such hearts be softened?

>>674668

Is blasphemy against the holy spirit not the one unforgivable sin?

>>674595

You're avoiding my question it seems. God offers us grace, but do we get the choice to accept it/reject it? Or is it essentially forced on us?

If we get the choice to reject it, this alone is already "picking up your end", since it's a dialogue, a synergy, and you can do the wrong thing and reject the salvation God offers.

And besides, people with your ideas say that we transform God's free gift into a debt to pay since works are involved, but do you not turn God's free gift into a tyrannical decree since you have no responsibility to receive and to keep it?

>>674673

Nobody's forcing anything on anyone. To say so is to pervert forgiveness itself.

Did Jesus only die for the sins committed before He was crucified?

>>674674

No, Jesus died for all the sins in the world.

But what exactly do you mean by

>if you don't pick up your end, you'll go to hell

? Answering positively to God's grace is what I'd call "picking up your end". But it's God Who comes to us and gives Himself to us, we can do nothing to reach Him ourselves.

>>674676

So, Jesus died for all the sins in the world, but he didn't die for the time you masturbated tomorrow?

>>674678

What? Of course He did. All the sins of all the world are covered. In fact, it is the whole cosmos that Christ restores through the Cross.

But it's not because a sin is forgiven that it ceases to exist. It is only at the eschaton that all sin will be -destroyed-. But for now, even though we are already forgiven by Christ, we can foolishly hold onto our sickness and refuse to accept God's medical treatment, so to speak.

In fact, one Orthodox view is that all the sins of all are forgiven. The sins of the unbelievers are forgiven to. But we do not necessarily accept that we are forgiven, we can hold onto our disease even though it is not ours anymore.

By being in Christ, we can cease to sin, not only accepting that our sins are forgiven but also being freed of sin truly, as we become like Christ Who was sinless. But until the second coming, sin can and does continue to exist, and many people in their ignorance let it enter their lives. They may be forgiven already of their errors, but they let sin and death infect them, and when death itself will be sent to the lake of fire, you too will taste destruction if you have something of death in you, that is, sin.

>>674686

>But it's not because a sin is forgiven that it ceases to exist.

So God says "hey, you're forgiven, but I'm still sending you to hell."

And I will remind you that there is only one sin that is unforgivable.

Ecclesiastes 2:11

>>674686

I'll note that sin being forgiven does mean something - it means that our path to deification, to becoming like Christ and an adopted child of God, becomes available. And it means that all will be resurrected, and bathed in God. But those who do not have the Holy Spirit in them will not find this to be a very enjoyable experience, as God is a consuming fire.

>>674694

God forgives our transgressions but their consequences remain. The main consequence being separation from God. When He will judge us at the second coming, what will be shown for the world to see is simply the exact truth of what we've done, of what we've decided not to do, of the consequences of the evil we have committed. Even if the evil is forgiven, the consequnces remain and we can, in our foolishness, stick to them instead of letting God perfect us in our being.

Remember that although it is God Who judges us, we are the ones to send ourselves to Hell. The Gehenna was made for the devil and his angels, and it is not God's will that any human go there, especially as He wills for the salvation of everyone.

>>674704

>God forgives us, but the consequences remain.

Once again, it's "he forgives you but still sends you to hell."

The wages of sin is death which is I assume is the consequence you are speaking of, but he who believes on Him has passed from death unto life.

He forgives every sin, except for knowing the truth and willfully turning away. There is no other sin that is also unforgivable.

Those who accept his sacrifice for ALL their sins are the seeds sown in good soil. Those who think their worldly deeds are also necessary are the ones sowed among thorns.

>>674718

>He forgives every sin, except for knowing the truth and willfully turning away. There is no other sin that is also unforgivable.

That is not what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.

And knowing the truth and yet leaving is forgiveable, if one is penitent and returns to the Church.

>The wages of sin is death which is I assume is the consequence you are speaking of, but he who believes on Him has passed from death unto life.

Okay, so. You're confusing two things. One thing is the forgiveness of sins. The other thing is our deification, our becoming Christ-like. Forgiveness of sins reconciles us with God. But we still need God's grace to then make us grow in Christ as a new creation. Our salvation doesn't stop at "Chist forgives us".

>>674722

If you leave the truth, you never knew it. I'm not talking about sins besides BAtHS.

But, tell me. What is your definition of BAtHS? Being to prideful to accept salvation? Same thing.

>>674730

>>674655