/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>Isn't all of that just completely redundant?

Absolutely not. Why would it be?

The Sermon of the Mount and the Beatitudes are some of His core (and most famous) teachings, but not entirely. These are guides and references for how to live a holy life.

The Miracles are proofs of His divinity and generosity to man, and demonstrations of man's faith in God.

The Church is His Bride on earth, and the keeper of the infallible Magisterium, the collected dogmas and teachings of the Bible and Sacred Tradition as revealed to us by God.

The Bible is the record of God's interaction with His creation, in which the Old Testament prophesies and anticipates the New, and the New Testament fulfils the Old, as St Augustine states. Both are required because without the one the other would not make sense.

Basically, not a bit of this is incoherent or "excessive". If He just came to earth, lived obscurely, didn't tell anyone who He was or why He was here, then was suddenly crucified, and resurrected, what good would it have done? No one would know who He was, why He did it or what it all meant, let alone to his own mortal contemporaries, to say nothing of those who would come after them. It would be a wasted effort.

Genuine question, how much reading have you done on this?

>>668544

>Genuine question, how much reading have you done on this?

Truthfully, not enough. But I do want to learn.

In your post you provided justifications for the things I listed but you didn't actually provide an actual top-down logical and coherent definition of Christianity where everything fits together. What is Christianity? Imagine you're explaining it to an alien rather than some guy who already knows stuff.

>>668554

I don't really understand what you are asking. You have already answered this in the OP. Christianity is the belief that

>Jesus came to die to atone for our sins so that we may be granted forgiveness and eternal life

Not only that, but those who were witness to His Resurrection were instructed to carry this message to the whole world to inform them of it. This is where the scriptures and the Church come into it.

As I mentioned, the OT is the anticipation of Christ, and references, types, prophecies etc. abound therein, all of which point to His Coming, and all of which are fulfilled by Him. The New Testament, being the Gospels (the accounts of Christ's life, death and resurrection), and the acts and deeds of the Apostles (as well as the Revelation, the account of the time to come when Christ triumphantly returns), shows not only that Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the OT, but also the way that he continues to manifest, guide and support the work of his missionaries in building up the Church.

The Church is the body of believers in this doctrine. It is the Church's mission to preserve the Gospel and the traditions and keep it free from error and to correct those who err, to continue to spread the Gospel everywhere, to administer the sacraments (especially of repentance and the Holy Eucharist), and to instruct, guide and lead the faithful in how to live a holy life, to die a holy death and to look forward to the joys of eternal bliss.

So tl;dr - W

>>668557

>So tl;dr - We believe that Jesus suffered, died, and resurrected for our sins; that the record of this in Scripture is true and accurate, and is eternally preserved by the Holy Church which in turn passes this message on from nation to nation, and generation to generation.

>>668557

> the OT is the anticipation of Christ

This is only partially true though. Because there's all kinds of other stories and lessons in it that don't relate to Jesus.

This is the thing I'm struggling with. That Christianity does seem to "fit together" in a linear and logical way. It seems quite unstructured with lots of side roads and accessories. How would you explain Christianity in way that actually embodies all of the faith into one coherent narrative, rather than simply selecting the essential part? (Christ's atonement for sin)

>>668559

I think the religion is beneficial at all levels of understanding, even if you're a potato.

>I've been trying to find the truth behind scripture but I started thinking what if it's so successful because the idiot interpretation (before the jew subversion) promoted survival. An anti-snake sentiment and demonization of murder out of jealousy is a great way to keep people alive. Throw in some be fruitful and multiply and you have a pretty good myth to keep your followers alive.

>>668562

This doesn't explain what I asked here >>668559

It seems incoherent. "Christianity is about Christ coming down to save us from Sin….by the way here's some stories about a guy fighting a Giant, or people walking around in the Desert or a guy living inside a Whale etc."

My point is, I don't understand how everything "fits together". It just seems all over the place.

>>668559

>This is only partially true though. Because there's all kinds of other stories and lessons in it that don't relate to Jesus.

Again, it all refers to Him, directly or indirectly.

Perhaps not directly, but a lot of the rest of it is demonstrating the need for salvation. There might be no parallels to Christ in the rape of Tamar or the boasting of Lamech, but these show just how desperate man was becoming, and why salvation and redemption from sins was utterly necessary.

>How would you explain Christianity in way that actually embodies all of the faith into one coherent narrative, rather than simply selecting the essential part? (Christ's atonement for sin)

It's all essential. There are no diversions, only explanations.

>>668563

Those aren't irrelevant. In fact each of them are directly Christian.

>by the way here's some stories about a guy fighting a Giant,

David, a young, innocent shepherd, also takes the place of the entire Israelite army in battle, and wins it singlehandedly, by crashing a stone into the head of a tyrant. Sound familiar?

>people walking around in the Desert

Having just escaped an evil place, crossing through water (which destorys an evil army), being given bread from heaven and a bronze serpent on a cross which heals people, a man who holds his arms outstretched to give victory to his soldiers and who gives his people the Law from a mountain, crossing over into a "Promised land". Doesn't this also sound familiar?

>a guy living inside a Whale etc

For three days and then is cast back up again to preach the word of God. Who does this sound like?

Reducing things to silly statments about "people wandering the desert" tries to blunt or ignore their significance. Read things fully and in context.

>>668566

>Sound familiar?

No?

>Doesn't this also sound familiar?

No?

>Who does this sound like?

Jesus.

My point is, how do you define it in a clear and coherent way? Like "Christianity is about how man gains salvation from Sin" and everything is just an extension from that or "Christianity is about what man should believe and act" and everything is just extension from that?

What I'm asking is the foundation that you build up from here…

>>668571

>No?

>No?

OK then you need to read scripture to understand.

To be honest I am starting to lose what you are asking. It has been defined several times so far.

The foundation is that we are all sinners and deserve damnation. However, Jesus Christ died on the cross in atonement and as a ransom for our transgressions, granting us at the same time the gift of eternal life if we desire it. If we do desire it, we will keep His commandments and do them as He instructs us to. We will live by faith, hope and charity in the Lord and also towards our brethren, and fearing His judgement, and desiring His mercy, confess our sins, do penance and amend our lives to conform to the example which Christ Himself gave us. If we do these and also hold fast to the traditions of the Church and the Scriptures, we can be saved.

>>668579

>To be honest I am starting to lose what you are asking.

Sadly, I think I agree with you.

What I'm asking for is essentially a group of premises that logically follow one another leading to the conclusion of "Christianity". The way any other idea, argument or worldview works. Like "Marxism is based on the philosophy of materialism. That human society and interaction is based on material conditions and everything else in society emerges from those material conditions" or "Social Darwinism says humans are just living organisms like any other living organism: coded to survive and outperform competitors through survival of the fittest" or "Libertarianism is the idea that each person should be free to make his or her own choices without any outside interference, upholding the non-aggression principle" etc.

Everytime I ask for this, you (or another anon) just goes straight into the deep end without any foundational ideas or explanations or anything. It's like you're starting the story halfway through without giving a structural base to the worldview of Christianity.

>>668566

>>by the way here's some stories about a guy fighting a Giant,

>David, a young, innocent shepherd, also takes the place of the entire Israelite army in battle, and wins it singlehandedly, by crashing a stone into the head of a tyrant. Sound familiar?

>>people walking around in the Desert

>Having just escaped an evil place, crossing through water (which destorys an evil army), being given bread from heaven and a bronze serpent on a cross which heals people, a man who holds his arms outstretched to give victory to his soldiers and who gives his people the Law from a mountain, crossing over into a "Promised land". Doesn't this also sound familiar?

>>a guy living inside a Whale etc

>For three days and then is cast back up again to preach the word of God. Who does this sound like?

>Reducing things to silly statments about "people wandering the desert" tries to blunt or ignore their significance. Read things fully and in context.

Not to discredit the Gospel, but sometimes these stories sound like the same story distorted through a multi-century long game of telephone. Even the pictographic runes and names in Genesis predict Jesus.

>>668609

I think you are looking at Christanity too much like just another logically coherent ideology rather than the true faith (granted you don't seem to believe it, but that's what it is).

The closest I can approximate it is to those latter examples is that

- Christianity is the belief that man, created by God, fell away into sin by disobedience and through sin brought death into the world.

- Mankind has inherited this predilection towards sin from our ancestors, and it is so thoroughly ingrained in our nature that we cannot free ourselves from it

- The Lord in His goodness, promises to deliver us from death, and through many prophets and patriarchs, in prophecies and prototypes, reveals to us that He will send Someone who will free us.

- This is why the Son of God, Jesus Christ, came into the world to redeem us from our sins and ransom Himself for us from death and Hell, and give us eternal life, which can be ours if we repent of our sins and amend our lives.

- A Christian is someone who believes this, and the doctrine preached by Christ Himself as told in the Gospels, which are a record of His life, passion, death and resurrection, and orders their life in accordance with the teachings of Christ, and preserved, promulgated by the Church (which is in turn preserved from error by the Spirit of God), Who will come again at the end of time to judge all souls based on their conduct displayed in life."

>>668622

>Not to discredit the Gospel, but sometimes these stories sound like the same story distorted through a multi-century long game of telephone. Even the pictographic runes and names in Genesis predict Jesus.

Well, yes, that's the point.

>>668623

>The ransom theory is satanic

Hardly. St Cyril of Jerusalem believes the ransom was to God, not Satan. It does not, therefore, imply that God was "buying off" Satan.

By death He conquered death.

>>668624

>>668623

>>668622

I didn't understand either of these posts.

> you don't seem to believe it, but that's what it is

I'm coming around to the Catholic Church but I just want to get the picture clear in my head, that's all. I think your post is a 5 star post but where do blessings and punishments in this life fit into it? You mentioned hell and eternal life. This happens after we die. What about on Earth, regarding punishments and blessings?

>>668627

>Well, yes, that's the point.

It's just a hundred books retelling the fall of Babylon?

>>668629

>where do blessings and punishments in this life fit into it?

Blessings can come to us through prayer and other devotional practises, or from ordained ministers and even other lay people, but especially in the Mass.

I don't think "punishment" really applies to us in this life in the same way Hell would, but we are chastised for our sins here, since sins and their effects are often self-inflicting, if not always immediately. If we are penitent, we can offer up our suffering to God as an act of devotion and supplication, and as a way of "bearing our Cross" and imitating the Lord, and we can also do other forms of penance here too such as fasting and almsgiving.

I am happy to hear that you are coming around to Holy Church. I will remember you in my Mass prayers today.

>>668630

No, about the coming of Christ. The fall of Babylon is a type.

>>668632

>I will remember you in my Mass prayers today.

That's so kind of you anon. I will pray for you as well. Thank you for answering my questions. I hope I didn't upset you with my inquisitive tone.

I will do more reading as you suggested.

>>668656

Thank you anon, God bless you.

Please forgive me for my presumption and if I appeared to come off as irritated with you.

(Polite sage.)

The Bible Project (vhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVfwlh9XpX2Y_tQfjeln9QA) is a yt channel that you will get a lot out of, OP. After that as a taster there's also Chuck Missler's Learn the Bible in 24hrs series also on utbue which is obviously longer and more comprehensive in scope but still only skimming the surface. First half gives a great overview of OT though (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRj8AJuzeJRwHdeFua3pzmwPB_JCS0mIq)

>What I'm asking for is essentially a group of premises that logically follow one another leading to the conclusion of "Christianity".

>It's like you're starting the story halfway through without giving a structural base to the worldview of Christianity.

The foundation is God, as he is understood in the bible. There's a three step process in coming to Christianity, and this is the first:

1) Belief in the concept of God (as he has been traditionally/classically conceived of) as the ultimate reality

Look into the arguments (ontological, teleological, cosmological etc. etc.) for God's existence first.

If you want another philosophical foundation for the belief in God then this lecture in vid related and the following three parts I'll post, taken together, provides one that posits that the idealist view of reality (that mind is the true nature of reality and matter is created by and is subservient to it) fits with the idea of God and shows how values (in terms of what is good) fit in and where they comes from (hint: the mind of God). It take experience, observation, sense data and conscious experience etc. etc. as it's starting point and goes from there to arrive at God.

There's a much shorter explanation that doesn't go into the philosophical reasoning behind having God as the foundation of reality nearly as much in another intro video of his (Keith Ward) that's the opening chapter of an audio book of his. But its also interspersed with looking at materialist (as does the lecture series posted, abit) and eastern understandings (foundations) of their worldviews (in fact here have the link - https://youtu.be/fwJeEq-VgYU)

Once you're open to the idea that you have a God who could conceivably not only create, uphold and sustain the world but interact/intervene with it outside/beyond of the normal physical paradigms which he otherwise upholds and sustains (i.e. miracles), then you need to discern how the above is the Christian God.

2) the reliability of the new testament and

3) understand that the most likely conclusion from the empty tomb, given the data and the circumstances is that Christ really was resurrected

Look into both of the above. Both of these obviously rely on/comprise evidence, data etc. and making reasonable conclusions from it all. There, you arrived at Christianity.

>>668664

pt 2/4

>>668665

3/4

>>668666

4/4

>>668559

i think people aren't answering your question yet, but christianity isn't just believing in God… or believing in the way you might think. Jesus said if you love him you will keep his commandments. You have to learn how to act, and for that you need wisdom. The teachings of Jesus and his example teach us how to live and how to act. every moment of the time you have left on this earth you make choices - are you going to go towards God or away from God.

If you truly want to go towards God then you will need wisdom (and grace) in order to act correctly, because temptation is abound. The more you learn, the more you study and meditate and contemplate, the better equipped you become to face all these temptations.

Truthfully though, learning about the religion is really learning about what fundamentally is reality. Why we are alive, why we think in certain ways, and so much more. The more you understand the more you have faith and the more you are better equipped to face the world.

On the contrary if you don't really put the time and effort into this, then you'll be easy pray for the devil and his snares. you will be weak, but it is your fault, you never put the time and effort into it. and really speaking, don't you really want to understand the world, to understand reality? it takes time and effort, but God wants you to, and you probably want to as well.

the aim of christianity is the aim of life which is to get to heaven, but in order to do that you have to persevere to the end and not choose the lie of empty promises and lust and choose that which is pure, which is God. this isn't easy and requires discipline and wisdom, and that is obtained by learning the religion and prayer (in its many forms)

>>668609

i read this post and realized i didn't answer really anything you were looking for haha. sorry anon, well hope something i wrote was of some use.

>>668541

Jesus came to reconcile man with God, his teachings, sacrifice and resurrection all accomplish this.

>>668664

Thanks for writing this all out and for the subsequent links.

>>668849

>>671725

These were both helpful too. I like the idea of thinking that Christianity is about Salvation. It makes it very immediate and direct.

>>668664

>Chuck Missler

Is this guy like a crank or something?

>Like, how would you actually describe Jesus' mission?

He came to change and redeem us in so that we may spend eternity with him. What is difficult to understand?

>>673693

>What is difficult to understand?

All of the stuff unrelated to that?

>>673801

Start then researching yourself.

>>668623

Think this section of video is relevant, coming from a crazy Jesus guy

https://youtu.be/G6PBn2SeM18?t=3039

I wish they'd call it Christianism again with no negative connotations.