/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

We just had a big thread about begoming, read that or post this in QTDDTOT because an explanation of a meme doesn't deserve a new thread. Also, lurk more and you wouldn't have to ask.

basically ortholarpers are 1% actual orthodox Christians, 99% teenage american protestants who think it'll make them cooler. they have very little grasp on theology and will use protestant arguments against Catholicism, while being oblivious that the same arguments can be made against Orthodoxy, as the two are almost identical theologically.

>>647516

>the two are almost identical theologically

lol no

Orthoprot is only this board's meme anyway. No one will call Hank Hanegraaff or Fr Serafeim Rose orthoprots irl.

>>647516

>the two are almost identical theologically

Even a cursory glance at their respective catechisms debunks this assuming you know even a little about theology.

>>647527

From what I read a lot of tge diffrences are minor, with the only major one I know of is the debate on who is the real head of the church.

>>647531

http://www.oodegr.com/english/papismos/diafores2.htm

>>647524

>>647527

Almost all the differences are based on mistranslations/definitions. The main difference is the energy/essence distinction, however most Catholic theologians these days accept that both traditions mean the same thing, and that the only difference is in defining energy as different to essense. Seeing as there is quite a lot of ecumenicism based on clearing up these definitions, in the future we'll probably see a closer relationship between the two communions

>>647533

>some 1990s looking website that uses slanders ("papism") and outright lies (practice of not communing the laity in the “Blood” of Christ,)

How not to be taken seriously

Ortholarpers are mostly Protestants who thinks that Orthodox are so much different from Catholics and hates Mary.

>>647544

>Almost all the differences are based on mistranslations/definitions.

I'd think the same too if all I did was read the wikipedia page on the topic. The reduction of the Trinity with the Filioque alone has caused some rather nasty mutations within Roman Catholic theology. The whole "oneness of spirit" part of their doctrine is one of these, where they attempt to blur the line between mankind and God by downplaying our subordinate status to Him.

Who even needs Roman Catholicism when you have Western Rite Orthodoxy now? Come home Latin and Anglican brothers.

https://www.orthodoxwest.com

https://www.rocor-wr.org

>>647516

>will use protestant arguments against Catholicism, while being oblivious that the same arguments can be made against Orthodoxy

lol no

>>647516

> as the two are almost identical theologically.

t.pastor anderson

>>647553

>Unhealthy obsession with Mary

St. Seraphim of Sarov recommended a prayer akin to the Jesus Prayer but for Mary, and a whole part of your sunday liturgy is devoted to the Theotokos.

>Catholics (in general) are just threatened by the Orthodoxy because they hate the truth.

We're definitely not threatened by a denomination with even less missionary activity than us.

>>647583

>Mark of Ephesus (born Manuel Eugenikos)

Question: why do orthos change the names of their saints to sound more "ancient"?

>>647544

>and outright lies (practice of not communing the laity in the “Blood” of Christ,)

You realize that generally, the wine(blood) is consumed by Priests and people only consume the unleavened bread(the body)?

That page is quite literally telling the truth. Its not even a direct theological blow to Catholicism or anything, some people just feel uncomfortable about it.

>>647583

The guy's quote actually does sound like something the Protestant reformers would say.

>>647544

Don't pay attencion to the looks of the site, which is an amateur initiative of some laymen, but to the article of Metropolitan Hierotheos who is an awarded theologian. If anything, those are some major differences theologically and liturgically speaking.

>>647651

>less missionary activity than us

Evangelization is not marketing. Orthodox missions may be less do a variety of reasons (for now) but the people coming to the church are more determined and stable to the message.

>>647655

Really shows who's the LARPer here

>>647679

>pointing out larpy behaviour makes you a larper

Weird logic, but alright.

>>647686

>Trying to comment on a Christian matter

>Not even knowing that monks take another name after they are accepted

>Proceeds to call the other LARPers

Do you know about the ressurection of Christ at least?

>>647685

I hope those people aren't as attached to man-made traditions as much as you claim

>>647690

You know, you could have corrected me instead of jumping straight to the LARPer insult. I was just asking because I haven't seen the practice in other churches. Monks changing their names sure, but its strange seeing orthos using quotes from St. John Chrysostom in arguments, only to find out that they're actually quoting some slav guy who took that name for some reason. So I find it odd, that's all.

>>647692

You are hardly making any sence. Who is the slav and how is he related to St John Chrysostom?

Yeah if your question was more well putted i could have answer it better. But let me give you a tip: The names sound ancient to you because they are ancient. Many of them come from Saints and Martyrs from the first centuries.

>>647691

Nothing from the Holy Spirit is man-made

>>647696

>Nothing from the Holy Spirit is man-made

The orthoprot strikes again

>>647679

>Evangelization is not marketing. Orthodox missions may be less do a variety of reasons (for now) but the people coming to the church are more determined and stable to the message.

Our Church is anything but marketable at the moment.

Pretty funny how you ignored the Theotokos arguments btw.

Hey, you want me to tell you how I know you're a protestant convert?

>>647507

An orthoprot is a protestant, usually american, that convert to Orthodoxy and keeps many habits and sometimes even doctrines and theological understanding of his previous denomination.

For example an Orthodox arguing Catholics worship Mary because between our form of veneration for here and theirs there are subtle insignificant differences.

The same goes for orthodox giving an excessive importance to KJV english translation and similar things. Also an habit of reading the Fathers with the same attitude prot fundamentalists read the Bible.

>>647685

>Many people on this board who claim that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are practically the same and that they'll be united soon don't understand that, for Orthodox people that means centuries of theology, history and Saints thrown in the garbage (philokalia? basically the whole hesychasm tradition will cease to exist).

I can say exactly the same thing about you.

Orthodox demands uniformity of every single difference of the west, including monastic orders.

If you expect we give up 1000 years of saints and pretend they were under prelest you can keep your provincial church separated for another 20000 years

>>647597

Catholism also has eastern rite.

>>647703

I didn't comment on that because i don't know what are the differences regarding the Catholic approach to the Theotokos. I've only read the it's somewhat different to us but i don't know any details.

>>647708

We didn't start the ecumenical movement and we aren't the ones pushing things. Every Orthodox know that our theological gap is huge, unlike Catholics who usually believe that we are practically the same thing except we don't have Francis.

Since this is another Catholic vs Orthodox thread, how do Catholic anons respond to the argument that, since Peter also founded the Church of Antioch, the Bishop of Antioch should have the same power as the Pope?

>>647720

Catholicism and Anglicanism are both having some major internal disturbances.

>>647738

Throughout Acts we see the apostles move around to escape death, so it follows that Peter chose to die in Rome.

>>647679

> the people coming to the church are more determined and stable to the message

mass attendance among orthos is not any higher than among Catholics lmao

>>647746

In the chase of Catholicism these tribulations were predicted at La Salette, Fatima and other messages.

If only it makes my faith stronger to see it coming true.

"Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist" it was said at La Salette.

>>647759

Just like Paul choose to die in Rome also?

>>647738

It's a silly argument for one thing becaue no one actually holds that position, nor have they ever held. There is no historical argument from the patriarch of Antioch claiming primacy over all of Christendom unlike the Roman popes. Also the see of Antioch was always ranked below Rome relatively speaking. From the early days where the chief sees were Rome, Alexandria and Antioch, they had a ranking of prestige in that order (descending).

>>647738

Because Evodius wasn't the successor to Peter; Evodius was Patriarch while Peter was also. Peter chose to pass off his succession in Rome to Linus.

>>647685

If you look at Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches, they venerate saints that the Latins don't. The Melkite Church (which entered into union with Rome in the 18th century) has post-schism saints on its calendar, like the commemoration of Gregory Palamas on the Second Sunday of Lent.

>>647648

I copy and pasted from that orthodox site…. hmmm

>>647667

I've been a Catholic and lived in a few different countries and the only people Ive seen not recieve the wine are really people who take the bread then cant be bothered waiting in line for the wine.

>>647912

You know what lying will net you. Repent and convert.

>>647915

>>647926

>>647895

That's kinda weird since St Gregory Palamas was very opposed to the Catholic theology and if anyhting, he was the one to show how different the two churches have eventually become. How do they reason it?

>>647890

You are posting a pic of some fags protesting against the church because of her anti-LGBT stance. The vatican owns gay bathhouses and i won't go on about Francis latter accomplisment to defend pedophiles and attack their victims for slander (ok he said sorry but the act still stands).

>>647931

They reason that saints can be in rebellion with popes or something like that IIRC. I think they make the distinction between local and universal saints. They also do this because of traditions. I googled the topic and I found this:

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/305819/Re:%20Orthodox%20Saints%20for%20Cathol

>>647925

You sould take your own advice.

>>648249

It's still weird. St. Gregory Palamas wasn't in rebellion with the pope but with the Catholic theology as a whole. I can't find the reasoning behind this.

>>647655

… Orthodox people change their name when they become monastics.

Manuel became Mark when he became a monk.

>>648565

It is, but I don't know how Byzantines think. It might have been in the spirit of ecumenism, letting the Melkites venerate someone with a heretical position, similar to how Syro Malabars venerate Nestorius.

t. Latin

https://forums.catholic.com/t/is-gregory-palamas-a-catholic-saint/138920/11

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence%E2%80%93energies_distinction_(Eastern_Orthodox_theology) I guess the Melkites really believe this

Now is my chance. In the event we brothers in faith do find a compromise and restore both are faiths, whats a good name. Cathlidox or Ortholic?

>>648881

I always liked 'Cathodox' as both denoms are equal in letters in the name.

>>648859

So the vatican is letting some middle eastern Catholics to venerate Saints that it consider heretics just for political reasons. Just like Mexicans and their wierd pagan-Christian traditions. Too poor to care about i guess.

>>648881

Orthodox Catholic.

Both titles were used before the schism, and besides it is formally the title of the Orthodox Church already.

>>648996

Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus is awesome.

His reply to the papist church:

https://www.impantokratoros.gr/2B2CE92A.en.aspx

>>649038

This. The Orthodox Church is the exactly the same it was before the schism, so compromising even a sliver would be beyond idiotic. Papists have to begome or face God's wrath.

>>649043

Now that’s not a Christian thing to say anon. We need to be as one, not have anymore brother wars.

>>647915

One thing I will never understand about these Catholic priests is how they square all this in their head. Unless they explicitly believe that there really isn't a God.

I mean, you'd expect Orthodox to have dissenting degenerates if it indeed did. Defined dogma is pretty limited and even though scripture and tradition is very clear, they could always squirm their way out of it like Protestants often do by talking about love or "muh context".

But Catholics are 1) literally defined by their belief in a supreme authority that has already ruled on this matter and because of infallibility can't "progress" or change its mind without undermining all of its claims; and 2) obliged to confess all mortal sins as defined by the church or they are literally going to Hell, and it's hard to believe a "LGBT Catholic" would confess their homosexual relationship and thus must know they are going to Hell.

How exactly do you consistently be a "pro-choice Catholic"? Why do they insist on the importance of being Catholic if they don't believe in the chair of Peter? They could just be Anglican.

>>649407

>How exactly do you consistently be a "pro-choice Catholic"? Why do they insist on the importance of being Catholic if they don't believe in the chair of Peter?

These are today's questions that won't really get an answer.

The only thing I can come up with is that because the Church went full retard with V2 lots of lukewarm catholics were created.

Because being lukewarm about something defeats its purpose they start not being catholic anymore in general but this would take away their meager existence so they just keep on playing catholic but with (((progressive))) views.

Tl;dr they're just fugging LARPers.

>>649413

Individuals make more sense to me. I think it has a lot to do with that.

The priests and activists confuse me a lot, though. Like, the existence of "Catholics for Choice." I have a hard time believing they can possibly be anything other than antagonists trying to harm the church.

I mean, priests must know who they are and, subsequently, allow them to participate in the parish regardless. They seem to think "Catholic" is important enough a part of them to be a major part of their organisation. I just don't know why it is so important.

I get not wanting to lose, even just on a cultural level, that part of your life. But thinking your dissent is important and that the magisterium changing its mind on something they've been steady on for 2,000 years is actually a good thing.

I will never get that.

Catholics like to act like they aren't the Schismatics and the other 4 apostolic churches are.

>>649544

>Catholics like to act like they aren't the heretics and the 30'000 real denominations are.

>>649545

>Be Roman Bishop

>have massive ego

>tells heads of the 4 other Churches that are in harmony with each other that he leads them now

>the Other 4 says that isn't Christian and Jesus leads them

>Roman Bishop breaks away from other 4

>Takes on a Pagan title (Pontifex Maximus) to 'legitimize' said supreme authority

>Bastardizes God's doctrine with Man's doctrine

>Wonders why 30,000 gorillian other denoms formed after he broke away from the others

<Man if only those other assholes just listened to me we wouldn't be in this mess

>>647915

That's "what the Shinnie the Pooh are you doing" sir

>>648991

It's just custom. I guess the Vatican just lets them venerate local saints that Latins deem heretics. They don't follow the heretical teaching though.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/are-eastern-orthodox-canonizations-valid

>>649560

my niggie what

>>647884

>>647912

>image of leftist catholics

>using a quote of false pope to 'prove what catechism says'

I mean get out of here. No doctrine supports sodomy. Sodomy is condemned in Catholic church doctrine. Two choices: You know it and you willingly lie or you're dumb enough to think that random statement of pope or leftist opinions equals church doctrine.

If so apply the same on Orthodox. Take pro LGBT orthodox and assume it's the official doctrine of your church buddy.

Inb4 you use 'muh infallibility' search for what it actually means. You know…just before you act like a retard again.

>>647912

I used to be homosexual; I had homosexual intercourse, I regret it since and I know that it is a cross I made for myself and that I'll have to bear it with the awareness I was the carpenter of it (to quote St. P. Neri). What the pope said is not wrong, in concept: I was welcomed back after I repented and I changed my ways…as usual, the pope said it in a very sloppy way, which is easy to twist into make it look like being gay is okay. I have many vices, but being aware of them and fight back with the help of God first and the knowledge that Him and the community of those He chose for His people is with me, ready to help me and bring me back to Him when I am paralyzed and unable to do it myself is a great gift and joy for my still troubled heart.

>>647915

Well, the USA is not the whole world…I agree with you that there are bigger issues in our RCC at the moment, but there are also many of us who are standing against it. We have lot of room for improvement indeed, and I admire the steadfastness of the oriental Churches, even wit hall the things I learnt about them from people who once were Orthodox faithfuls but now reject their faith due to the failings of some of their bishops and even patriarchs.

>>649407

>1) literally defined by their belief in a supreme authority that has already ruled on this matter and because of infallibility can't "progress" or change its mind without undermining all of its claims

Infallibility applies when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra though, so I don't think his comments about gays count