/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>622811

Because she can help you. This is the same as asking why God ask you to worship Him.

>pray to her

you don't pray to her, you ask her to pray for you, like you would ask a friend,. we've been over this a million times you dummies

>>622865

Not against her intercession but just check what she supposedly says in her apparitions. She is basically saying she collects the prayers and sends them to God. What why doesn't she say address God himself What? She is suppose to be the highest gem of Christianity. That isn't humble at all.

*I mean she doesn't talk about normal prayer to Christ

>>622929

>>622865

Could someone post some examples of what she actually says in any of these visions?

Here is an example the same theme in prayer was in some of the mysteries of Fatima

Medjugorje Message, January 2, 2017

- Apparitions to Mirjana

“Dear children, My Son was the source of love and light when he spoke on earth to the people of all peoples. My apostles, follow His light. This is not easy. You must be little. You must make yourselves smaller than others; with the help of faith to be filled with His love. Not a single person on earth can experience a miraculous experience without faith. I am with you. I am making myself known to you by these comings, by these words; I desire to witness to you my love and motherly care. My children, do not waste time posing questions to which you never receive an answer. At the end of your journey on earth, the Heavenly Father will give them to you. Always know that God knows everything; God sees, God loves. My most beloved Son illuminates lives, dispels darkness; and my motherly love which carries me to you is inexpressible, mysterious but real. I am expressing my feelings to you: love, understanding and motherly benevolence. Of you, my apostles, I am asking for your roses of prayer which need to be acts of love. To my motherly heart these are the dearest prayers. I offer these to my Son who was born for your sake. He looks at you and hears you. We are always close to you. This is the love which calls, unites, converts, encourages and fulfills. Therefore, my apostles, always love one another and above all, love my Son. This is the only way to salvation, to eternal life. This is my dearest prayer which fills my heart with the most beautiful scent of roses. Pray, always pray for your shepherds that they may have the strength to be the light of my Son. Thank you. ”

>>622929

So was the most humble so therefore so gets to be the most exalted.

>>622929

She tells us in every apparition to pray, specifically and especially at Fatima, the Rosary. She is called the mediatrix of all graces and it is often a spiritual practice of the saints to recognize in humility the meagerness and poverty of their souls, and thus their prayers. So we give Mary our prayers, supplications and sufferings to purify and perfect them because, as Simeon prophecized, her heart would be pierced with a sword that hearts may be laid bare. So because of her absolute unity with Jesus, she suffered in an unspeakably close union with Him in His passion and death and because of this she can see the needs and states of souls as well. She is prayed to (in a form of hyperdulia which is not the same as worship, but hyperveneration because of her place in God's Kingdom as the Queen of Heaven and Earth) under the title of "Lady of Sorrows" for the truth in situations; for spiritual realities to be made known to the person. So, because of her ability to see the truth in matters and because of her indissoluble bond with her Divine Son Who Is our Lord Jesus Christ, we ask her for her prayers and intercessions and also that she might take our prayers before the Throne of God perfected and purified that they might be more pleasing and efficacious to Him. The saints have recognized their own inability to approach the Throne of God in a way that is as pure as the mother of God so they tell her their intentions and she goes and presents them before her Son, and He never denies her, just as at the Wedding of Cana.

>>622944

I understand I've read theology that far. biut if she were humble would she in this manner advertise her ability and not her son?!

>>622940

Medjugorie is a heretical and false apparition. The church never approved it, the local bishops except 1 all say its heretical. It preaches heresy like God doesn't care if you are Muslim and that religions are equally valid.

>>622951

Thanks for clarifying that.

What about Fatima? The church doesn't require you to believe that I've been told

>>622953

the church approved Fatima meaning you can believe in it but you are never required to believe in an apparition.

>>622864

This seems like a somewhat confused answer. It implies that God''s help is conditional on our worship of him, which is not the case (i.e. Matt 5:45) and so by extension implies a direct relationship between our worship of God and the benefits of his direct action provided in direct reaction to our worship. This is false, 'benefits' of worship are not accrued on the model above, rather it's simply that it makes sense that we indirectly psychologically benefit from worshiping God (i.e. putting him front and centre of our lives, making him and our relationship to him the most important thing spect of our lives, attributing all the glory (which means weight) we can give to anything to him when he is the one, by his nature, deserving of the worship and glory. It's just common sense that because he's the best = mean we need to treat him like he's the best and the results that logically entails (glory, worship etc), considering its what we were designed for and any arrangement outside of the above isn't logical or common sensical (i.e. why would you give something other than God more glory or worship when that thing isn't as good as God? That's going against our design and is going to have serious consequences).

>why would Mary actually ask to pray to her?

"Prayer of the righteous availeth much"

> Isnt that a bit proud? Wasnt Mary the most humble when she was on earth? That really makes me think many are fake

She was humble and is humble. But that does not mean that she will lie. In Heaven all will know their exact place in hierarchy and due their modesty they act accordingly.

>>622979

But what if it was a counterfeit Mary that said these things? After all, a counterfeit Jesus showed up to Joseph Smith and told him many falsehoods. How do you discern what is truth?

>>623044

>But what if it was a counterfeit Mary that said these things? After all, a counterfeit Jesus showed up to Joseph Smith and told him many falsehoods. How do you discern what is truth?

"Test the Spirit". If you think that there is no much of investigation in those very delicate matters then I am only sorry that you have so poor esteam about Church.

Let's take two well know exemples of True and False appiration:

>True Apparition of Fatima

<Main massage: Repent, repent repent! Only by the one true Church, Body of Christ, salvation comes!

>False Appiration of Medjugorie

<All relgions are fine, all can lead to God, don't worry

>Fatima

<Mircles: Sun dences on the sky, even the most antitheist portugesse newspaper said it happen

>Medjugorie

<Not a single first-class miracle

>F

<Prophecy: IF and only IF you repent Portugal will come to peace. So will word. If not there will be war greater than ever before.

Up until 1975 Portugal is peacful and ruled by true catholics. World War II in Europe

>M

<Peace will come to you regaldless and soon

Civil War in Yugoslavia soon after

>F

<Church stance: Local Bishop and Pope approval, offical churches bulit, faith grows

>M

<Local Bishop said it was bullshit, Popes said it's still bullshit, unoficial (and do I have to mention our stance of obidence in apostolship in those matters?) shrines bulit that are nests of superstition

I could go on. But there is this good lecture for you.

In Fatima it was said " My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God"

Thats not true is it?

Mans refuge is in his God's son through him we are lead to God.

This sounds like heresy to me. Why would Mary ever tell anyone to seek refuge in anyone but his son?

>>623076

>Okay, but did the spirit confess Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came in the flesh?

Yes. And many more things that are depostied in public revelation.

>October 13th, 1917 but the spirit didn't show up and was an hour late. When it does show up an hour late at 1 o'clock,

That's lie.

<At noon, Our Lady appeared to the children, and after repeating her requests for the daily rosary, and promising that World War I would soon end, she said to them plaintively and sadly: “Do not offend the Lord our God any more, because He is already so much offended.”

>the clouds clear up and witnesses describe some sort of dull metallic disk that spins on an axis in the sky and spews out color onto the crowd

Then, while the three seers saw visions of the Holy Family, the crowd of at least 70,000 people were mesmerised as the Miracle of the Sun unfolded. What happened was so incredible that even non-believers couldn’t deny it, as this report, which appeared in the secular Lisbon paper O Dia, indicates:

The silver sun … was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds. A cry went up from every mouth and the people fell on their knees on the muddy ground. … The light turned a beautiful blue as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands. The blue faded slowly and then the light seemed to pass through yellow glass. … People wept and prayed with uncovered heads in the presence of the miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they.

This wasn’t the only unexpected response from a secular source. The journalist Avelino de Almeida had previously published a satirical article about Fatima in the anti-religious newspaper O Seculo, which had succeeded in drawing great attention to the apparitions. But when he witnessed the miracle first hand he adopted a very different tone and truthfully reported what he saw, even though he was violently criticised for this by fellow journalists.

Meanwhile, José Almeida Garrett, a young lawyer, reported that “The sun’s disc did not remain immobile. This was not the sparkling of a heavenly body for it spun round on itself in a mad whirl. Then, suddenly, one heard a clamour, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight.”

Eyewitnesses to the miracle said that the sun danced in the sky, the colour of the whole landscape changed successively, and the sun seemed to come down towards them, so that many of the crowd thought it was the end of the world.

> I don't believe a metallic disk is the Virgin Mary.

NOONE does that. It's miracle of the SUN.

>>623082

In Fatima it was said " My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God"

Thats true isn't it?

Mans refuge is in God's Mother, through her we are lead to God the Son.

This is perefctlly true and biblical. Why wouldn't Mary ever tell anyone to seek refuge in anyone but her son?

"O my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need."

>>622950

she can do that because it's a reward for her humility during her life on earth. She can do it because it was given to her by God as a reward. You don't need to keep "proving" your humility to God in the afterlife

>>623044

>But what if it was a counterfeit Mary that said these things?

you are forbidden from believing the truthfulness of any marian (or non-marian) apparitions if they are not recognized officially by the Church. If the Church recognizes them, you are still free to reject them, there is no obligation to believe in them; the Church simply gives you the authorization to believe in them, but you are not obligated to.

>>623093

I don't really know where you get this "telepathic communication" stuff. Two of the three seers dying early doesn't mean anything, it was most likely just in the plans of God and you are seeing too much into it.

You just sound very biased about this. Read the transcripts of what our Lady of Fatima said and point out what you think is "heretical" or "demonic", otherwise stop wasting our time.

>>623082

>the way

HANG ON A MINUTE

Only one person can make that claim

>>623093

>The remaining seer — Sister Lucia — was locked up by the Jesuits and given a hush order for the rest of her life.

She chose to become a nun and withdraw from public life because her role was only that of a messenger, she didn't want to be a superstar or anything like that. She just did what God asked and then lived the fullness of the faith at the best of her capabilities; Catholicism isn't about building mega-churches like protestantism, it is about really experiencing the fullness of God in a life of prayer and self-sacrifice. There was no "shush order", anyone could take an appointment and meet her, with all the precautions necessary because she was a nun living in a convent and not a pop singer or anything like that.

>>623170

Church and his Body?

Fot if you say that his Body (of which mary is archicon and "neck" of it) cannot then you are wrong.

Act 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Act 19:9 But when some became stubborn and continued in unbelief, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them and took the disciples with him, reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus.

Act 19:23 About that time there arose no little disturbance concerning the Way.

Act 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

Act 24:22 But Felix, having a rather accurate knowledge of the Way, put them off, saying, “When Lysias the tribune comes down, I will decide your case.”

>>625220

Because pagans liked having female deities, so the Catholics elevated Mary to demigod status to try to attract them.

>>625220

by this logic you shouldn't ask your friends to pray for you

>>625225

>pray to "saint" who was confirmed by a political body and not someone that Christ argued for

>praying to someone in eternal torment, complete absent from Gods prescense

What can the dead do for me? Arguments of tradition are a waste of time, unless it's Enoch, Elijah, or Christ himself; it's kind of a crap shoot

>>625225

Your living human friends in this realm =/= those on the other side.

Seriously, does this need to be explained to you?

When you commune with the dead, that is not an "ask" on the same level ask asking friends. That's a prayer. Praying to the dead is some voodoo hoodoo shit you better check yourself before you wreck yourself.

>>623168

Wasting whose time?

Can't there be discussion? at least in my position the telepathic thing (that is, non-verbal communication) comes from several experiences that turn bad in the old testament and some parts of the Quran

>>625227

Except they aren't dead.

>>625277

I'll concede that they aren't dead dead, but that doesn't mean you should commune with them. You might as well play with a ouija board or perform a seance ritual and open yourself up to demonic trickery.

God already gave you his phone number through Christ. Don't over complicate it for the sake of your feefees.

>>625294

doesn’t matter what you think, intercessory prayer is in the Bible

>>625226

>eternal torment

either Christ offers eternal life or he doesn’t. make up your mind

>>625420

But praying ON BEHALF of other people and praying TO other people are two very different things.

Nothing implies you should attempt to commune with others that have passed on.

Pray to God, pray to Jesus, or pray to God in the Name of Jesus.

>>623168

All I'm saying is, look at all of the facts. The original documents state of a telepathic communication with a feminine spirit being wearing a skirt at knee-level, for example. The priest that originally transcribed this said this threw off a major red flag. That's not to mention the eyewitness accounts of a silvery flat disc spewing out what we today know as infrared radiation and symptoms of radiation burns. We may disagree on what's caused this phenomenon, but we can agree that it is real.