/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I admire your optimism.

>>619312

No, Mormonism is lies UPON lies

Mohammedanism is lies upon truth (he was visited by the Holy Ghost? Or The Angel of the Lord?)

>>619314

I am an Arab trying to reconcile my faith and now I have substantial information that Mohammed was a Prophet went to Arabs under the new covenant

There are no more true prophets, see Hebrews 1:1-2

>>619318

Read again. It says “our ancestors, as in Hebrews” Mohammed was an Arab.

>>619320

*”our ancestors” as in Hebrews

>>619308

My theory was always that, as with Joseph Smith, Muhammad got tricked by a false spirit disguised as an angel.

>>619326

Yes but the mohammedan Law aligns perfectly with the law of moses

He also prophesized and behaved like any other prophet. Trust me, I was a pious Muslim who read a lot, I discovered that most of the Religion was made up later, that’s why I left.

>>619320

No, "our fathers" as in Christians, saints, see Romans 4:11-12

>>619326

This, is always possible, remember we're talking about the metaphysical world. And human beings in prior years were always more in touch with metaphysical aspects. This new age crap, is literally a dot on human history.

But to your point, this is what i've always thought, is maybe they genuinely did have contact with spiritual forces, but it sure as hell was built on sand.

>>619326

There’s things like early coins depicting the word Muhammed and a cross that just really makes you think

>>619329

The Quran states that the Trinity is God, Jesus and Mary. I HIGHLY doubt that Gabriel would be mistaken on that point.

>>619332

not really, although that's kind of interesting I guess.

>>619330

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

What are you talking about? Paul was a Jew by ancestry.

>>619334

That’s Mohammed’s words, not Gabriel’s (he rarely made clear distinction between the two)

>>619337

Well then Muhammad is a cataclysmically poor representative of God's message then isn't he?

>>619335

I'm not saying he wasn't, I'm pointing out that when an apostle refers to their fathers, they're talking about the people of God under the old law, which just as they are under the new law (for the old and new are the same in substance) were not any nation, but those who believe. Hence, Hebrews 1:1-2 applies to all mankind,

>>619340

That’s clearly up for interpretation

>>619339

Well he was an illiterate Arab salesman so yeah he isn’t exactly the most sophisticated guy. Are you saying Isaiah is not a prophet just because he went around naked? Not an argument is it.

>>619345

All of that was invented by Abbasids, you didn’t read my post, you have no clue about Islamic history, and i won’t bother.

>>619349

wtf I love islam now

>>619350

I’m not a Muslim, Islam was invented by Abbasids.

>>619350

And heat that’s what Jesus would. You are a disgrace to Christ.

>>619352

*yeah

>>619308

No, that's retarded. Muhammad was a pedophile, he raped 9 year old little girls.

>>619355

Prophets aren’t infallible, you are illiterate of the History of Israelites.

>>619355

If you want to believe that, whatever

>>619346

Are you denying the doctrine of the trinity, or that illiterate Christians can hold it? Make peace with your brother in Christ who you called a disgrace for rejecting a blatantly and grossly heretical false prophet who disgraced your God, for the good of your soul.

>>619358

Jesus taught us to hate evil, just as God hates evil. I don’t care about what hatemongering people say about Mohammed, the truth is good and that’s good for my soul. Mohammed made many prophesies that were fulfilled. That is the definition of a prophet. If you don’t know the history of the made up religion of Islam don’t call a prophet of the lord a false prophet.

>>619358

Also he was not a Christian per se.

You know who told Muhammed he was a prophet? The first to tell him that was a Christian. A Trinitarian (I presume)

>>619360

>>619361

I will call him a false prophet when he preaches falsehoods like Mary being a part of the trinity, because that is false prophecy. The man denounced Christ's divinity and called many other to do the same. Do you think that these doctrines are true and were communicated by God through Muhammad, yes or no?

Call them what they are, each major religion (generally) gives the specific people it's fielded too what they need to improve, the same way God treated the Hebrews in the Old Testament, withholding greater doctrine from them when they worshiped the Golden Calf and instead giving them the Law of Moses. Christianity is an incredibly hard sell to somebody who's only known depravity all their lives, but perhaps something lesser than Christianity would serve them as a stepping stone to it.

>>619362

The most obvious explanation is that he himself came up with that after speaking with heretical Christians on his travels (he went to Syria for example, a stronghold of Gnostics since the time of the early church)

>>619343

No it isn't

>>619367

Well then your attitude towards him should be clear.

"But though we, or an angel form heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." -Galatians 1:8

And for the love of God please apologize to >>619350; God treats offenses like that like offenses directly to himself.

>>619371

The amount of correct prophesies attested to Mohammed prove my point. He foretold things like the conquest of Constantinople. The Abbasids changed the texts and there is proof for that just look up sanaa Manuscript, one of the oldest copies of the book of Muslims.

Let’s really look at what mohammed said about Mary in a Arab pagan context: do not take Mary and Jesus as deities besides god

Do you disagree with that? Like, Arab pagans could easily think Mary and Jesus are LITERALLY gods.

Then: god did not beget a son

Do you think god has LITERALLY begotten Christ? Of course not. That’s not what the Arab pagans would think about Christians. He spoke to illiterate pagans. You put everything he said in wrong context, Arabs know that he had to address illiterate pagans that way.

>>619375

I meant, the Arab pagans could mistake Christians for random pagans who worship son of God as if he was by a goddess.

>>619375

>Then: god did not beget a son

Do you think god has LITERALLY

begotten Christ? Of course not.

>do not take Jesus as a deity besides god

Do you disagree with that? Like, Arab pagans could easily think is Jesus are LITERALLY God.

What whacked out denom did you join that preaches fringe heresy like this?

>>619377

You liar

I did not say Jesus is not God. Cursed are the words you are writing because they are not true.

>>619377

Jesus is not just God he is God in flesh and when a pagan hears that he will think Christians are pagans; that is what germanics thought about Rome’s Christians. You illiterate.

>>619371

Of God would take offense this easily he would have smited me for my sins a long time ago

>>619382

>>619380

Fair enough, but you still need to account for stating that the Father did not beget the Son, unless I am misinterpreting. And either way A.)this really doesn't mean much; Muhammed denied Christ's divinity, therefore he preaches a false Gospel, and therefore he is anathema and B.) why should a servant of God care what pagans think are pagan, and C.) you called one of God's children a disgrace to God baselessly, you should be ashamed for that kind of a sin.

>>619382

Notice in some places the Quran says Jesus is the messiah, but suddenly says somewhere else he is just a prophet. We now have proof from the sanna Manuscript that few centuries after Mohammed died the texts were manipulated. Really makes you think.

>>619384

The guy basically said marrying your cousin is retarded and I am Arab and maybe I will marry my cousin and he calls therefore Arabs literally retarded

He’s just a troll and spews lies

>>619386

Which deserves patient reprimanding, not insults that throw yourself into hell with him, especially if it only feed the troll. It's not like we haven't all done worse at some point, but be perfect, as your Father is perfect.

"Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and anger, and indignation, and clamour, and blasphemy, be put away from you, with all malice. And be ye kind one to another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ." -Ephesians 4:29-32

>>619384

A) that was later added, Sanaa manuscript is proof that Abbasids have definitely done something with the Quran (that didn’t exist at the time of Muhammad. Perhaps the Quran itself and its creation story was made up. We can not be sure)

B) Are you saying he should not clarify what the faith is? He told the Arabs to not worship other gods besides the Lord and neither to worship Mary and Jesus (as separate gods)

>>619393

Even the black cube of Mecca has something to do with Jews. You know they wear the black cube on their forehead right? Well I believe it symbolizes repentance or something like it and has something to do with the cross but I don’t know much more. Arabs (the good, and the bad ones) play a key role in Gods plan, I believe.

>>619393

Again, the messiah is called a mere prophet several times which anyone with slight understanding of Christianity and Judaism strongly objects to. Who would call the messiah, the anointed one, a mere prophet? Well, the rebelling Abbasids would. They overthrew the old regime. Caliph yazid was raised by a Christian, but the early history of the omayyads has been all but obscured by infighting. Shias vs Sunnis, omayyads vs Abbasids (their sign: a black flag)

Guys this will debunk Islam forever if people hear it. Especially those that live in the West, will have ears for it. Tell me if you think there is something wrong.

>>619315

>he was visited by

SATAN

>>619377

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

One of our favorite Christmas Scripture verses is I John 4:9: "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him." The marvelous incarnation in human flesh of the only begotten Son of God is not the end of the story, of course. The next verse explains that we have life through Him because God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (I John 4:10). Our heavenly Father gives us eternal life instead of the eternal hell that we deserve because His only begotten Son died in our place for our sins. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21).

>>619377

Consider, though, the significance of this revelation that Jesus Christ is the Father's "only begotten" Son. This unique phrase is used with reference to the Lord Jesus just four other times, and all five verses contain vitally important truths concerning Christ. These verses are as follows:

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

This is the key verse of the Incarnation, assuring us that the man Jesus, who dwelt among us for a time, was also the eternal Word who was "in the beginning with God" and that He "was God" and that "all things were made by Him" (John 1:1-3). He was God the Creator manifest in the flesh.

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him" (John 1:18).

The Father is omnipresent, and therefore invisible to mortal eyes, but as Jesus said: "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). Men have seen and heard the Father in the person of His only begotten Son. Whenever God has been seen by men, it has been through the Son who has revealed Him.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

This verse, of course, is the most magnificent of all gospel verses; many would call it the greatest verse in the Bible. It assures us that, if we simply put our trust in our great Creator who has become man in order to die for our sins, and then to defeat death and become our Savior, our sins will be forgiven, and we shall live forever with Him.

"He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).

Other than the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). In view of all that our Creator/Savior has done for us, this verse gives clear warning that those who refuse or neglect to believe on the person and work of God's only begotten Son, will die in their sins, condemned forever by the Father whose Son they have spurned.

"God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him" (I John 4:9).

T

>>619377 Sorry

>>619410

>>619412 meant for

>>619375

>>619416

Begotten Son has a different meaning for Christians than for pagans. Mohammed was a Christian, most Arabs were pagan.

But yeah sorry troll that I said you’re a disgrace that’s not right

>>619362

>mary part of trinity

Im Arab christian, some of my extended family is muslim. I read arabic. That is not what quran says.

>>619317

Jesus said he was the last prophet. Stop trying so desperately to justify both faiths together, either take the plunge, or remain lukewarm and be spat out by God.

/thread

I once heard a weird theory that Muhammad was told by God to be martyred in Mecca, but he instead fled to Medina. After he went to Medina, God stopped speaking to him. There's no real proof of that, but what's interesting is that the Meccan surahs are both peaceful and they conform to Biblical doctrine, whereas the Medinan suras are violent and heretical. Every verse saying God has no son, or the two verses saying Christians think Jesus and Mary are two gods besides God, those are all from Medina. I don't know if this is true, but it is an interesting theory.

>>619741

That's not Muhammad. That's Imam Ali. Just FYI.

>>619308

I dont think so. He spoke to an angel in a cave. If you look in the book of enoch it says satan still looks like a beautiful angel. Muhammad spoke to satan himself

>>619827

If I may intervene

>Muhammad spoke to a angel

>Satan is a angel

>Therefore, Muhammad spoke to Satan

I mean I would declare that Muhammad spoke to Satan any time of the day but if this logic preceded it I'd keep my mouth shut.

>>619857

No … the dude in that picture you posted. The one labelled "Prophet Muhammad". That's not Muhammad. It's a pic of the Imam Ali, successor to Muhammad, and the 3rd or 4th Caliph.

>>619864

>>619754

are you autistic or just Muslim

>>619876

Neither, but I believe in intelligently arguing. If you're going to claim a pic is Muhammad and it's too easy to counter it by saying "That's not Muhammad", then the whole argument falls apart.

There's a reason the say to "know thy enemy".

On behalf of all other middle eastern christians, keep Muhammad away from us. He is a false prophet and a mortal man, nothing more. He conquered much of the ancient world and brought it to ruin. Islam destroyed the once-Christian MENA, which could have remained the holy Biblical regions for all christians to pilgrimage to and enjoy. Instead, we have violence in every aspect of Islam's life. The teachings of Islam are not compatible with those of Christ…God bless the muslim people for trying to remain moral and obey God, but I pray they come to Christ soon.

>>619312

Then why did current pope say they worship the same god as Christians?

>>619329

Where in the law of Moses does it say that you should not drink alcohol

>>620225

>Where in the law of Moses does it say that you should not drink alcohol

Also where does it say you can't make music? Muhammad came up with some dumb stuff.

>>619308

The Quran (collection of argumentative recitations) is a compilation of ideas pulled from the popular religions in the Middle Eastern area, which include:

- altered versions of biblical stories, such as the story of the patriarch Joseph or the story of Moses in conflict against Pharoah.

- "gnostic Jesus" ("Issa") the son of Miriam the sister of Moses (as opposed to the Virgin Mary)

- the Arabian Jinn-devil religion

- the Arabian star family worship

- Zorastrianism

- the Arabian Nabatean pagan gods "allah", "allet", "al-uzza", and "manet"

The Quran is only one part of Islam. Islam also consists of the "biography" of the fictional prophet "Muhammad" and the hadith ("Muhammad's" sayings and traditions).

Islam can be described as:

- "Muhammad" + "allah"

- a Babylonian-style domineering theocracy of conquest

- an all-consuming way of life

- following the Quran modeled by the "way of life" of the fictional prophet

Concerning the true origins of Islam, the following questions need to be considered:

"Why is there no mention of Muhammad, Muslim, Islam, or Mecca in the earliest Caliph protocols?"

"Why is the qibla (direction of prayer) facing towards Petra in the earliest mosques?"

"Why was the biography of 'Muhammad' not compiled until around 200 years after his death?"

My personal theory is that the Umayyad Caliph Abd Al Malik started the whole mess of Islam when he directed their "Shahadah" to be stamped on their coins around 692 (Muhammad is said to have died in 632). The governor of Petra at that time Abdullah ibn Zubair was also involved but subsequently rebelled against Abd al Malik. (Note that many world leaders view religion as a means for controlling the masses.) My source for this theory is from Jay Smith.

The telling point is the doctrinal foundation of Islam which can be viewed in Arabic from the inside of the Dome of the Rock which reads:

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender."

(Sura 4:171 Pickthall)

"And say: 'Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence.'" (Sura 17:111 Pickthall)

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. (Sura 48:29 Pickthall)

So what spirit has been the influence of Islam over these past centuries?

What did the Apostle John write?

"… no lie is of the truth. 22Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. (1st John 2:21b-22 AKJV)"

It should be obvious that Islam is driven by the spirit of antichrist, that same spirit that the Body of Christ has been at war against since the days of the early Church.

>>620236

Music is banned in Islam?

>>621101

Nah. They have nasheeds and junk. Really just depends on who you ask. Some of the hardliner groups like the Taliban ban it outright while more liberal groups say it's fine. Muslims can no more be painted with a broad brush than we.

>>621069

Yes but the son was a title for any respected person back then. John, and all apostles, did never say Jesus was literally God. They were monotheists, jews. The Greek pagans invented that. There is no God besides God brother.

>>622004

For any respected Jew, not just any person, sorry.

>>620097

Wrong. Dude, serfdom like in Europe would have been the future of North Africa and the Middle East.

>>619412

John is talking very symbolically and the Jewish Bible freqnelty says God is no man. God is therefore literally not Jesus unless you don’t follow Jewish scripture.

Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man will be accomplished. For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

Jesus clearly calling himself son of man, absolutely destroying the claim that he or any of the apostles ever thought Christ was the same as God. That was made up by Greeks, they made Jesus their new Dionysos.

>>622028

One more I forgot.

WORSHIP

>Matthew 14:32-33

>32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.

>33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

<Again, He does not correct them for worshiping Him, for He the LORD is worthy of worship.

>>622018

So are you Jewish or just a non-Trinitarian Christian, or Muslim? I'm really curious of your beliefs. Can you expand on it a bit? Would Jesus be a prophet then to you?

Is OP still around?

Not sure what the consequences are for Christianity from this theory.

AFAIK…Muhammed was a sincere prophet who prophesized many things and taught in accordance with Mosaic law and the Quran/Islam was at least partially invented by the Abbasids…so…what?

Return to Judaism? Non-trinitarian Christianity? Try to remove the Abbasid innovations from Muhammed's teachings?

>>622163

We need to reclaim Muhammad as a christian prophet. The real Muhammad was a christian prophet who evangelized the Arabs. Basically it’s time we take our prophet back. I always secretly thought Muhammad was bretty based and now I think I know why.

>>620097

God bless you and all the saints in the Middle East. I pray for your protection and provisions every day. May God pour out His Spirit and His Holy Blessing upon you and your people.

>>619735

>Jesus said he was the last prophet.

Where exactly in the Scripture did Jesus say this? The closest thing I could think of is when Jesus says He is the Alpha and the Omega in the Book of Revelation, but that's referring to who Jesus Christ is, not that 'all prophecies have ended.' Technically, the Apocalypse of St. John (Book of Revelation) is a prophecy from St. John himself, thus contradicting your claim. In fact, the gift of prophecy is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians. Yes, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but there are still prophets even to this day, but many of them are false.

>>622194

>We need to reclaim Muhammad as a christian prophet.

Muhammad was a false prophet. He is just as much of a 'Christian' as Joseph Smith.

>>622199

OK.

>>622148

No no, not Jewish, I like to call myself Muslim I submit to God deeply and the cousin of Muhammad and his successor Ali taught self-knowledge is akin to understanding God, and because that’s also a word Christ used (or similar)

my goal is to discover the meaning of the gospel of Thomas which says he who finds the meaning of these words shall have everlasting life and I know modern scholars have not a grain of an idea of what the authors of gnostic texts believed

So I’m going to have to meditate on the text for the rest of my life maybe

One thing I believe in is reincarnation also

>>622148

I actually believe in Jesus divinity now but I know there is more to it

>>622163

Watch cristero warrior on YouTube where he talks about muhammad

The Quran is not from Muhammad likely a later invention to counter other religious books, Muhammad was maybe a messianic Jew himself it is not known to us really

>>622256

*shall not experience death

>>622258

Or more likely he was a Christian arab and maybe even believed the trinity, the Quran just says call God one and don’t worship Jesus and Mary besides God but that wasn’t the case at his time nobody worshiped Mary that sect died out hundreds of years before Muhammad. The whole stories of the Quran are collections of different stories floating around so really Muhammad, which is a title by the way his name was Abul Qasim (father of Qasim).

Practices like ablution are from Zoroastrianism and the story how Muhammad got the Quran? That’s been taken from the elchazites a Jewish messianic sect that taught their leader got his book from heaven and the Muslims took other practices from them too, not just the story of the holy book.

>>622262

Oh right he was a rahmanite, a name for Arabs who followed Jewish laws and were monotheist, who called God al rahman

>>622262

But I admit that he could really have said the Quran himself and the Abbasids just “fixed” it later a bit, that’s also likely.

>>622262

> Quran just says call God one and don’t worship Jesus and Mary besides God but that wasn’t the case at his time nobody worshiped Mary that sect died out hundreds of years before Muhammad.

Or, or, or…he was just an illiterate retard and thought that Mary was part of trinity according to Christianity. Given that people like zakir n*ik exist, this isnt unrealistic.

I also believe the entire Jewish Bible contains symbolic esoteric knowledge and is not literally describing world history, although it closely resembles it (global flood, first man, happened not exactly like the Bible says but the Bible is symbolic and not literal)

>>622278

This knowledge is now in the hands of Jewish sages although Ancient Jewish groups that were not Pharisees died out, so these group’s knowledge is lost forever.

>>622278

>>622279

>>>/christ/

>>>/x/

>>>/hell/

>>622276

You need a new argument because the koran doesnt say that Mary is part of “the trinity”. It says don’t worship Jesus and Mary as gods in derogation/instead of God. You’ve been hoisted by the petard of lazy apologetics that try to say the arabic means “alongside”. It doesnt. Put it in google translate.

>>622393

I guess this board doesnt support arabic characters. Anyway, the arabic “min dun” from 5:116 doesnt mean alongside, it means instead of.

>>622395

Interesting. Could this mean he was influenced in his views by Nestorians? I know the monk who told him he will be a prophet was a Nestorian

>>622700

Anyhow, I would strongly advise people to not think Muhammad was 100% right in his behavior or views even when you agree he was a prophet

He for example allowed his men to marry women for short time and divorce them to satisfy their desires

Like several other prophets he was not perfect, thus Islam is fundamentally false: most Muslims believe he was literally perfect

>>622281

I just researched it - the Bible is literally true, Adam and Eve lived 7500 years ago. That’s new to me, wow.

>>622737

Also: Muhammad spoke about the Holy Spirit as Rooh al Qudus. Don’t trust modern Muslim scholars when they say it is really Gabriel, that’s nonsense. He clearly said Rooh al qudus and not Jibreel in the place talking about Jesus birth.

>>622784

Rooh - Spirit

Qudus - Holy

OP here

I have read many sayings of Muhammad and his companions

The religion of Islam was clearly made up some hundred years after his death, only the Quran and a book called nahjul balagha are sources of his life and his cousins life, his successor

>>622818

Oh sorry even nahj albalagha was hundreds of years after Muhammad

>>621113

>Muslims can no more be painted with a broad brush than we.

nice taqiyya Ahmed. Instrumental music is haram in islam, period.

>>622818

so you some kind of shi'ite revisionist?

>>623175

>Instrumental music is haram in islam

No it isn't. It varies from scholar to scholar. Salafists claim it is across the board haram, but Salafism is a tiny branch of Islam. Most other branches permit singing/percussion while some permit all music.

It ain't "taqiyya", kid. Look it up.