/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I'm much one for believing in the trinity (I think that the Father is greater than the Son), but I can help with Jesus being the literal son of God. For a start, there aren't really any other people born of virgins, not counting shenanigans with IVF and artificial insemination. Luke 1:35 says "The Holy Spirit will come upon you [Mary], and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.", which clearly says that the Holy Spirit (which is the power of God) impregnated Mary, assuming that the Bible is true (it is)

>>617168

The Trinity is alluded to on the Old Testament when God speaks in the plural first-person. "Let US go down", "Let US create man in OUR own image", etc.

>>617168

"Son of God" does not refer to the birth being a miracle. It refers to the relationship between two persons of the Trinity.

Read Boris Bobrinskoy's "The Mystery of the Trinity." It's a good lesson on the Trinity as found in the Scriptures, in the Liturgy, and in the Fathers.

>Hi I’m an ex-Muslim learning about Christianity - big question: where is the trinity in the Torah?

For context "God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by his Son". So "subtle theology" such as relations within God, three persons with one esence, Trinity, was fully procalimed in times of Christ, by Christ, and his Church. But there are types and images of Triune God within Law and Prophets.

So in Torah we have:

>Gos nameing himself Elohim, "gods"

>God useing plural verbs and pronouns

>"One" in Shema (Hear o Israel etc.) is not unitary one.

>Three angels appering to Abraham to be image of God

>Jahwe sending fire from Jahwe on Sodom

>Angel of Lord saying that he is Jahve

But in rest of OT we find more of it.

>I don’t see it anywhere and there’s people talking about how there is reference to the Holy Ghost; well “Sophia” in Greek meaning wisdom is also talked about as a person so how can I say she is not the Holy Ghost or that there even is a trinity?

"Sophia" is Christ, who is Wisdom of Lord. And for Holy Ghost we find:

Come ye near unto me (God), and hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: from the time before it was done, I was there, and now the Lord God hath sent me, and his spirit.

And in NT:

Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep part of the price of the land? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God.

>I also don’t get how Christ is the LITERAL Son of God, I mean aren’t there other people born of virgins, would they also be a son of god?

Christ is Son of God not because he was born of Virgin (and believe me, there is no one else who was born is such manner i.e. Virgin had no pains accroding to word of Prophet Isaiah and baby passed through her like light through glass, so that she was virgin before, druing and after birth) but because he eternaly procedes from God.

"The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee."

"I called upon the Lord, the father of my Lord, that he would not leave me in the day of my trouble, and in the time of the proud without help."

"What is his name, and what is the name of his son, if thou knowest?"

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

>Can you show me convincing proof that Yahweh is a trinity?

Even the best proofs without faith will not avail. But I can say, that if God gave you a little faith then this one is best:

For God, who is infinitely perfect being, existence of others beings than Himself is not necessary, but simultaneously He possess Love in infinitely perfect degree and, if so, this Love cannot be egoism.

Conclusion of this is that God exist in at least Two Persons.

Each of those Persons is able to do infinitely perfect giving of Love to other Person with fullnes of Itself, and other person is fully able to recive this giving.

Because in result of full giving no Person cease to existst (becouse it would deny Love of giving-Person towards reciving-Person), it is necessary that Third Person existst, that is (because of nature of this act) subject of mutal giving of Two Other Persons.

Existence of more Persons is not necessary, and because God is infinitely perfect, there is nothing unnecessaty in him.

Moreover each of persons is eternal due the very nature of God. The First Person is principle of Second One, whom He generetes. Theafore First Person is Father to Second One, who is His only-begotten Son. Moreover, Third Person proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son. Thefore from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration Third Person is both Spirit of Father and Spirit of Son. His name then is rightly Holy Spirit.

>>617185

>I'm much one for believing in the trinity (I think that the Father is greater than the Son)

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

>>617193

Excellent post

>>617193

Yes but el is male o is female him is plural

why is the Holy Ghost not female then?

Elohim what does it mean to christians

>>617193

Part about why god must be three persons in one, it makes sense

>>617220

Why did I even find this funny?

Q1: Concerning the lack of portrayal of God as Triune in the Tanakh.

A1: Genesis 18 explicitly depicts YHWH as Triune, as Abraham refers to the three visitors by that name. Furthermore, the Messiah's name is YHWH in Jeremiah 23:6. Israel itself, in feminine, is foretold to be identified with the same title in Jeremiah 33:!6, which is consistent with the Christian understanding of the Church as the Body of Christ, but not consistent with the Jewish idea of the male personification of the people of Israel being distinct from the Messiah (as in the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah).

Q1a: Concerning the Three Men not being God.

A1a: That would be extremely incongruent with the style of parataxis which practically defines Biblical prose. There is also the Angel of the Lord, which Christians take to be the Logos, hence God himself (Judges 13:18, Exodus 23:21, Exodus 3:2-4, Genesis 48:15-16–note in this last verse, "angel" and "God" are not separated by "and", indicating they are the same, since Biblical Hebrew certainly stresses the use of "and" where applicable).

source: https://pastebin.com/u/ConstantineTheSinner

The Orthodox have the best apologetics.

And another from Constantine's pastebin…

Q1: Concerning the Trinity as polytheism, as the doctrine of aspects, Sabellianism, is considered heretical.

A1: The Greek terms used here (οὐσία and ὑπόστασις) are generally translated as “being” and “person”, but can also be translated as “essence” and “existence”, so God is one essence with three distinct (though not separate) existences . According to Hebrews 1:3, the Son is not merely an εἰκών (generally translated as “image”) of God, as man is: He is a χαρακτήρ (which means perfect replication) of God’s ὑποστάσεως; so the Son, being a perfect replication of God’s existence, means HE IS (YHWH is archaic Hebrew for “HE IS”); so God the Father begets God the Son, but does not create him, because that would conflict with the Son being a perfect replica of God’s existence, as God’s existence doesn’t begin or end, and is uncreated; the Son also cannot be a distinct being from God, as God’s essence is predicated upon his existence (ὑπόστασις means the underlying support–I AM). So first of all, ask, “Could God furnish (not create, as God is uncreated) a perfect replica of himself?” Then ask what that would entail, and you get the Trinity. Now of course you might ask, “Why would God do that?” Well, even putting aside the divinity of Christ, the Trinity is fundamental to the Christian conception of God as love, and this explains why: http://www.antiochian.org/node/17594 So it's not a matter of God willing the Trinity by motive, it's a matter of God being Trinitarian in nature. This is all beyond really putting into words except in the vaguest of senses, but it makes more sense when factor out spatial and temporal conceptions, though it nonetheless remains a divine mystery.

>>617193

>>617193

>Gos nameing himself Elohim, "gods"

Why would this be used if the three persons are not separate Gods?

>>617193

>"One" in Shema (Hear o Israel etc.) is not unitary one.

Interesting, this is the first time I have heard of this, would you be able to expand on it or provide a sauce?

>Because in result of full giving no Person cease to existst (becouse it would deny Love of giving-Person towards reciving-Person), it is necessary that Third Person existst, that is (because of nature of this act) subject of mutal giving of Two Other Persons.

Would you be able to clarify what you mean in this part, as i don't understand it fully.

Thanks for the interesting post.

>>617201

>Yes but el is male o is female him is plural

No. El is singular for god. Elohim is plural for gods.

There is no "Elo". In fact, Elohim is written ELHYM. "O" here is vocalisation.

>why is the Holy Ghost not female then?

Spirit have no gender. Gender is bodily. God (and angels) use male pronouns because he is Active while Female is passive. If he was in any form female then Eve would be before Adam.

>Elohim what does it mean to christians

In respect to pure grammatical sense - gods as in "You shall not have other elohim before me".

In respect to God - name that denotes Trinity as well as his great, almighty power.

>>617308

>Why would this be used if the three persons are not separate Gods?

It's more about usage of plural noun than anything.

>Interesting, this is the first time I have heard of this, would you be able to expand on it or provide a sauce?

It's really easy when you see that "Man and Female will be made one (Echad) flesh". No one is stupid enough to think of it as unitary unless he have very strong anti-trinitarian biases.

>Would you be able to clarify what you mean in this part, as i don't understand it fully.

I'll try as best as I can.

It basically means that Father who is loving Son, and Son who is loved by Father, both wish that there exist someone who is so loved and who so love. So there is Third Person.

Also, since they give and receive themselves perfectly they do not cease to exist. Why could they in the first place? For what is greater gift and act of love than give God? What is greater than recive God? Thefre there exist Thrid person who is not only subject of love of both but is love between the two.

>>617308

>Why would this be used if the three persons are not separate Gods?

Sometimes in Hebrew plural pronouns are used as a form of exaltation. The closest thing in English is the royal "we".

>>617220

Don’t blaspheme God.

Reading about primordial Gnosticism, they said that the concept of the he trinity was only mentioned once, by a new testament follower to explain the belief of body, soul and spirit. Mudt be unimportant tbh

>>617790

You mean the trinity must be unimportant?

>>617801

The concept and thought of it. Understanding it's specifics may just be a waste of time compared to everything else there is to understand

>>617306

>God the Father begets God the Son, but does not create him,

Something I truely do not understand is the meaning of begets

>>617323

>both wish that there exist someone who is so loved and who so love.

Ah yes I see, thanks for the explanation.

>Also, since they give and receive themselves perfectly they do not cease to exist. Why could they in the first place?

I do not understand what you're trying to say here, but I'm not sure it matters

>>617168

>>617801

>where is the trinity in the Torah?

Literally the first two verses of the entire Bible/Torah.

< In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Let me expound on this further:

In the New Testament, Jesus The Son of God takes the title "The Beginning" several times.

<So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning?

John 8.25

<"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Revelation 22.13

So if we applied the title given in these verses to The Son into Genesis, it reads like this:

<In the beginning (The Son), God (The Father) created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God (The Holy Spirit) was moving over the surface of the waters.

It is a beautiful thing to understand The Father creating in His Son to produce the heavens and the earth, and to see the Holy Spirit moving over the face of the waters. All three together as One.

>>617855

>I do not understand what you're trying to say here, but I'm not sure it matters

<Why could they in the first place? For what is greater gift and act of love than give God? What is greater than recive God?

What am I saying is that there have to be thrid person so that Father can give and Son can recive greatest of possible acts of love - God himself, who is Love. They couldn't give and recive themselves for they would cease to be but that would deny nature of love itself.

>>617921

7 And the men of Azotus seeing this kind of plague, said: The ark of the God of Israel shall not stay with us: for his hand is heavy upon us, and upon Dagon our god.

Now repent faggot

>>617921

>trinitarians cannot provide a single scripture where 'elohim' has ever been translated as "gods" for the one true God

we're trinitarians not polytheists

>>617890

That doesn’t explain it man. The spirit is his presence, this is not a distinct person, but a figurative tool to express the nature of God. But to equal it WITH God, and also his Son? The only way to come to that conclusion is by following what tertullian said: taking ideas from pagans instead of the Bible. Trinity is nowhere mentioned in the Bible man.

This website talks in detail about the trinity, have not read it yet.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html

>>618102

Look friend. You admited you were a muslim. That places you in the theologically retarded bracket who falls for the highest nonsense. Don't try to lecture about the Trinity after 2000 years of theology. There are three persons in the trinity. All of them are God, and share the same essence. And this is stated by the very people who compiled the Bible, so you can't take one and ignore the other.

>>617921

Get this in your thick skulls:

THERE IS NO MAJESTIC PLURAL IN HEBREW!

>>618217

That’s a huge accusation. Also another huge mistake. Trinity 1700 years of theology, not 2000. Why should God be a number? It’s from a mystical experience of Hellenes, that’s where this personification of the Holy Ghost comes from

God is not a number

>>618268

By the way, here is why I am not a Muslim, I debunked Islam theologically. Muhammad was not a retard; he was inspired by Satan. There is a story about Alexander the Great in it, which is taken from the Alexander romances. Not only that, there’s more to it. The story features Alexander, here portrayed as a virtuous monotheist. He goes until he finds a place where the sun sets at a lake. (symbolic for the union of female and male, sun male, lake female, and t has a deeper meaning I haven’t found yet)

Now the people there are being terrorized: there is a people called Gog and Magog, who are evil. These attack the poor villagers constantly and pillage. What then happens is crucial: Alexander builds an iron wall, to keep them out, between two hills (likely symbolic for the female breasts, Muhammad was very focused on women)

In Ovid, we read that iron was closely associated with Rome. He lived around the time before Christ. So? This means Rome is the wall, separating the good people, Christians of Europe, from the pillaging, evil barbarians on the other side. Rome has been prophecized to be conquered by Muhammad.

Islam is the arch enemy of civilization.

>>618273

I further assume the antichrist could be Islam, or something related, but I have not researched the book of revelation enough yet, to conclude this.

>>617921

>Trying this hard

>>618273

Oops I meant of course to say, Muhammad, but in reality Satan, foreshadowed what Islam will become. The arch nemesis of Peace.

>>618280

Oh wait

I just read Iron is also associated with heaven.. Islam could also be associated with the iron from heaven (Egyptian daggers were made from meteorite iron)

Okay the real reason I’m not a Muslim is because Satan is the father of lies and the Quran says God is the best deceiver, he BTFO himself lol

>>618268

> Why should God be a number?

I don't even know what this means. I guess your mind has to be twisted enough to accept islam to understand these retarded things. It's fun how you mention "Trinity is 1700 years of theology", but ignore the fact that the Bible is younger. The Trinity doesn't come from anywhere. The Trinity is one of the things that defines Christianity. Nobody can be christian without accepting the Tritnity, just like you can't be christian while being an atheist.

Stop coming up with your retarded "theories about how "the Trintiy was create by this person!". There are thousands of years of councils, fathers of the Church and theology. The very people who created a Bible for you. So if one isn't authoritative, the other, too, isn't.

I have not said that Muhammed was a retard, only that muslims are. They know nothing about theology, or about religion. They are eager to randomly accept things as authoritative without understanding their origin or history (in your case, the Bible). They mindlessly latch on something and then try to school others with their fanfictions. That is why you are just a modern day Arian. Expect the same treatment.

>Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of heaven, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that moves on the earth.” OSB

>Us

>>618286

No man the Jews would have a Trinity as their God too if this was the case but they just don’t have one.

>>618296

The jews are talmudists whose very existence is based on the rejection of Christianity. The religion you call "judaism" was born after Christianity. The Old Testament books you mention are christian books, not jewish ones.

Imagine someone tries to take the first 2 books of the old testament and creates a new religion out of them to oppose Christianity. That religion is just trying to appropiate scriptures.

>>618297

You know I reject all modern versions of the religion of Abraham, they just argue over how God is and life is not about describing the indescribable it just doesn’t make sense and I now feel stupid to have made this thread, real stupid

“I and the Father are one. Oh and the Holy Spirit, add that 300 years after my resurrection please.”

>>618299

The religion of Abraham is Christianity. Your fanfic is a modern version of the religion of Abraham.

You were already told that the mystery of the Trinity can't be explained. YOU don't make any sense.

>>618305

The source that teaches you about the Trinity is the same source that teaches you about Jesus.

>>618299

And by the way, here you have other fanfictions about Abraham: judaism, islam, mormons, JWs, arians, etc.

>>618299

By the way, this seems to be what every single muslim says when facing something that goes beyond "ooga booga God": "it just doesn't make any sense". EVERY SINGLE TIME, AND THESE RETARDS THINK THAT THEY ARE IN A POSITION TO ARGUE ABOUT THEOLOGY

>>618308

You can’t take pagan ideas and at the same time say paganism is from Satan okay

Jews at the time before the Gospels were written (that don’t contain the trinity but for the sake of argument let’s say they did) did not have any trinity, ever.

>>618320

>hmm what kinda reaction pic should I choose

>oh yeah a literal demon

>I’m the real Christian here

>>618311

Keep fantasizing about Mohammedans while I am busy following Jesus good one bro

>>618326

>>618325

>>618327

I recognize your writing style from the pagan thread. Please keep your rambling to one post at a time.

>>618325

You are in no position to talk about pagan ideas. You don't even know what those are. It seems that all heretics do the same: they try to say that all the rightful authority that opposes their fanfic is "pagan" somehow. Jews at the time before the gospels were written did not deny any Trinity, ever.

Your """Christianity""" is as much Christianity as islam or mormonism. You don't follow Jesus. You spit on Jesus, his teachings, his divinity, his Church and pretty much on everyone who taught you about Jesus in the first place. You only follow yourself.

>>618001

Quran Contradictions: Are Christians Polytheists?

>>618330

Lmao do you think you are a goddamn oracle? I didn’t post any pagan thread nor participated in one.

>>618339

Stop arguing about muzzy arguments, please. Even thinking about Mojo and his false religion should be a crime.

>>618342

>mojo

Damn it now all I can think about is Mojo Jojo starting Islam as some evil ploy.

>>618102

>That doesn’t explain it man.

The question you asked wasn't to explain the trinity, only to show where it was in the Torah/Old Testament.

>Trinity is nowhere mentioned in the Bible man.

Sure it is. It's not explained in the Torah/Old Testament because that was not God's full revelation.

However in the New Testament there are many verses supporting a Triunity.

<Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

Revelation 1.4-5

<For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

1 John 5.7-8

<For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father,from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him

1 Corinthians 8.6

Does it not say in scripture

<No one can serve two masters

And many more examples.

>>617168

He wont listen. It's a little bit like the Paul conspiracy. They hate Paul because he closed the door to any new-ageist interpretation of the life and works of Jesus Christ. Here he blames Tertulian for corrupting real Christianity.

>>618518

>let’s defeat myself so that you can’t do it

Nice job there

>>618518

Update I just read scripture and believe the trinity is real, God bless

>>617915

>What am I saying is that there have to be thrid person so that Father can give and Son can recive greatest of possible acts of love - God himself, who is Love. They couldn't give and recive themselves for they would cease to be but that would deny nature of love itself.

This is still not making sense to me and, no offence, but I think it's because of you're limited English skills. Please feel free to try again, and no worries if not and I appreciate your previous responses anyway

>>623922

Subtle theology is headache and when you have so little information about particular idea it's even worse.

1.We concluded that there is Father and the Son. We concluded that Father is loving and Son is beloved. We als know that God is love.

2.Now it would fallow that Loving would want to give to Beloved, who would want to recive, all of his Love. But God is Love. So he would want to give all of himself to him.

3.But Father is Father becouse of him being 1)unbegotten himself 2)begotting the Son. So he cannot give to the Son himself.

4. Likewise, he cannot give the Son to the Son.

5. So it is neccesarry that there is Thrid Divine Person who procedes from the Father in difrent way than the Son (by spiritation) so that Father can give it to the Son. And Son can recive this Spirt (who is Spirt because he procedes) fully.

6. More person wuld not make it any mre perfect.