/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Salvation by faith in Christ without works is what separates Christianity from the false religions of the world. Every false religion says "Do", Jesus says "Done".

Now we work not to justify our record before God, but to please our Father and receive a glorious reward.

>>616494

>please our Father and receive a glorious reward.

That last sentence there puts salvation back into our hands. I think you believe in synergism and I'm that case you you believe in no different than what the world believe. You see, almost all religions in the world believe in God's grace. Christians believe in it. Eastern orthodox believe in it. Mormons believe in God's grace and freaking Muslims believe in God's grace that we must work with in order to receive salvation.

Now, this isn't a debate about the necessity of grace but the sufficiency of grace. And I hold that is it by God's grace "alone" that we are saved and none of our humans actions aid but only serve to give evidence of a lively faith.

>>616498

I was unclear. I don't mean that we work to gain entrance to Heaven but that our rewards will be met out to us depending on how we live as Christians on earth.

I base this on 1 Corinthians 3 where Paul says

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

>>616500

>our rewards will be met out to us depending on how we live as Christians on earth.

I disagree we can do anything to bring about our salvation or anything that will grant is any reward.

>>616502

I'll check the thread out later but one verse at a time please.

>>616490

Faith saves, but faith does not save apart from works. We are to work out our salvation.

>>616504

That goes against scripture

>For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 3:28states

We are saved apart from works.

Where does the bible say we are to work out our salvation?

>>616505

I made this thread to have a meaningful discussion on sola fide. If you are going to be attacking straws then it's better off I you leave.

>>616500

We are not the ones who do the building but it is the spirit. If you interpret it otherwise then you are making scripture contradict scripture.

>ctrl+f bible for "faith alone"

>1 result for "faith alone"

>e see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Really bringeth one to ponder…

>>616510

I've have to deal with James 2 so many times that I'm tempted to just past my previous responses here. And I probably will. Hold up:

Ok, great start. First of all you have to understand what faith alone means. There is a difference between "Sola" fide and "solo" fide. The difference is outstanding. First of all solo fide leads to antinomianism while Sola fide leads to good works. What do I mean? The meaning behind sola fide is that our faith the the ultimate authority in the sense that our faith, if it is true, leads us to do good works. This is what james means "faith without works is dead." He paul is talking about a "faith" that does not produce good fruits. Again the subject here is Faith and offspinf of this. He is telling us of two different types of faiths.

This point is better convayed by verse 14 where is says "Can that faith save him?" "That faith." The greek word used here is "ὁ πίστις" (Ho pistis). Tthe ho here is in the the definite article, which is used to refer to a particular member of a group or class. Here james is talking about a specific faith here not just anything.

And so a faith without works is not true saving faith whereas a faith with works is true. That is why paul can say what he does in philippians 1:6

Also, when I was about to finish writing this you told me to ignore your first paragraph and I already wrote too much so I carried on.

Here it is

>>616505

it separates faith from works, when in fact they are both one. to have faith is to be a certain way in the world, that way of being includes keeping commandments and doing good works and having beliefs and praying and hoping, etc.

>>616509

>I disagree we can do anything to bring about our salvation

Where are you coming from on this, if I may ask? Calvinism?

>Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Belief is not a work, but it's necessary for salvation.

>>616516

I'm a reformed Baptist which are basically Scottish Calvinists.

>Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Who said belief was a work? Faith is a unmerrited gift from God.

>For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Romans 9:15

>>616518

They are told to believe. You have to admit there's a synergist element there.

>>616518

But Christ says we are to seek, we are to knock, and when we seek we find, and when we knock he opens the door.

Without free-will, without some voluntary power on our end to connect with God, then there is no test and not moral responsibility. Ezra 1:6 and 7:13 imply man has freewill to make offerings to God. The NT calls us to repent, to hope and believe, if we had no freewill such suggestions would be comical.

It's true that God has a part in stirring faith in us, but we also have a duty to respond or reject

>>616504

Romans 4:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

>>616520

No, not once you understand tota scriptura and the difference between prescriptive and descriptive verses in the bible.

>>616522

>"Works of righteousness"

We can't do righteous works, but we can strive to do so. We are not saved because of our righteousness, which we lack, but because of our salvific faith, which effects works in us to that end.

>>616525

If it all depends on God, then its impossible for man to do so alone. God would not ask man to do the impossible, to work a miracle in himself, your reading of the bible doesn't make sense.

When John the Baptist went around telling people to repent and make way the path of the Lord he did so because people have freewill and the ability to choose to repent or to to sully the path.

The strict calvinist reading would be like John the Baptist going around telling people to turn water into wine or walk on water. The very fact that the bible asks us to seek, to repent to believe to hope and to love God implies we have a choice in the matter and a power to make such decisions already….

>>616518

Thought so, I grew up Free Presbyterian/Reformed Baptist so I know where you're coming from. Now I'm just a run of the mill Baptist.

We're saved by grace through faith in Christ. That much is abundantly clear. but take another look at Ephesians 2 which you've posted a few times already.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

>10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God ordained that we should walk in good works. It's worded so strongly, it says we're created in Jesus UNTO good works.

No, they're not necessary for salvation. A good deed done with a gun to your head has less merit than an alm done in secret, after all. But they're damn important to us as Christians. It's why we were made Christians.

What got me off the Calvinism kick was seeing how lazy I (chiefly) and my brethren were in doing those good works, and in bringing forth fruit after our kind.

>>616521

First off, free will is a foreign concept in the bible. Perhaps you can prove otherwise but as of now I'm currently reading the entire bible starting from genesis making my way up to revelations and don't see this.

But you're right. We are to seek we are to knock and Chris t will never deny us. But what does the scriptures say?:

>God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God. Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 53:2-3

It's not that God does not love us but that we do not love God. And so God takes it upon him self to circumcise our hearts:

>And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:6

And then put heart of stone to a heart of flesh:

>And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:26

>>616530

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Specific works do not justify apart from faith, but 1 Corinthians 13 is crystal clear that even the faithful are nothing without charity, without the love that is the fulfillment of the law. Paul's emphasis on faith apart from works needs to be read in this context. That being said, as many others have pointed out, James 2, although a divisive chapter, emphasizes that apostolic and protestant views of justification differ only in theory, not in practice.

>>616507

>Where does the bible say we are to work out our salvation?

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure."

Fear and trembling being God and his judgements, lest we sin. And certainly a lack of charity is a sin worthy of damnation, although if one is a true christian one either has to be lazy or obstinately refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to cultivate charity in you.

>>616527

It's not so much my reading of scripture is wrong but that you have the wrong presuppositions. God prescribes us things to do while at the same time describing what a true believer will be like. God has a purpose in all of this. John does not know who the elect are. He is simply following what God is commanding him and that's preach the gospel. And God does the rest of the work.

>No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 6:44

>>616530

>First off, free will is a foreign concept in the bible.

I think its assumed simply by intuition and experience that we have freewill, hence prophets ask humans to choose wisely and seek God. There is no point to request things of beings that are predetermined automata with no freewill.

Ezra 1:4, 1:86, 7:13 use the language of freewill: "And let each survivor, in whatever place he sojourns, be assisted by the men of his place with silver and gold, with goods and with beasts, besides freewill offerings for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.”

…." when they came to the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem, made freewill offerings for the house of God"

Why would God ask Cain and Abel for offerings if they had no choice in the matter, why would he prefer Abel's over Cains if ultimately he was the decider?

>>616528

Are you assuming I'm some sort of anti-nomian? I do believe in the importance of good works. When we were saved by faith or wasn't so we should be idle but that we are to be used as instruments of God to carry out his will. I believe we are saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone. And like you rightly said;

>No, they're not necessary for salvation.

But they are evidence of a lively faith.

>What got me off the Calvinism kick was seeing how lazy I (chiefly) and my brethren were

Funny you say that. I had a couple realizations recently. I could perhaps help you with this and explain why this truth should in fact make you more zealous for good deeds.

>>616531

???

>>616536

That there be the free will of the fall, unless God willed that we eat of the tree of knowedge of good and evil and surely die.

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? -Ezekiel 18:23

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. -2 Peter 3:9

>>616532

>1 Corinthians 13 is crystal clear that even the faithful are nothing without charity, without the love that is the fulfillment of the law.

Im not an antinomian. A true believer will have his fruits sprout out and be shown throw love and charity. John Calvin even said, we are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.

>James 2, although a divisive chapter, emphasizes that apostolic and protestant views of justification differ only in theory, not in practice

I disagree. It's not an argument against is but for us.

I deliberately asked you for the verse because I wanted to quote:

> For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure."

Even our good works are not our own but the spiri working within us.

>>616536

Genesis 3 is an obvious demonstration of the principle of some type of freewill possessed by human actors.

Also, if actors have no independent action, then can they really be said to be independent actors? If they cannot, then their identity, and therefore their responsibility and moral weight, is dissolved. Even punishment would be meaningless.

Calvinism is an incomplete system, one revolving around suicide of identity rather than union with the divine.

>>616533

>>No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

>John 6:44

Yes but it's still a "coming" it's not a dragging. God calls us and we respond and come or struggle against him.

There's no love in being dragged, that's not real submission and faith. Real belief and love need some freewill, the voluntary bowing of the knee out of love and awe, not God pressing you down like a strongman.

Why would the prophets and the bible ask us to repent and have faith if it was literally impossible for us to influence these things at all? Why did God ask for offerings if people couldn't actually will any freely?

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

Strict predestination doesn't make sense and it undermines the whole message of Christ, the problem of the fall and man's responsibility to God.

>>616534

Do you know what free will offerings are? If you just paid attention to the context then you would know. Free will offerings are ju when you offer more than was needed! Thus it's a free will offering that wasn't demanded of you.

>Why would God ask Cain and Abel for offerings if they had no choice in the matter, why would he prefer Abel's over Cains if ultimately he was the decider?

Because God had a purpose in that. It had to happen and so by his sovereign decree he did so

>>616542

Judgemental predestination seems to be rooted in a misapplication of determinist thought.

>>616539

>Calvinism is an incomplete system, one revolving around suicide of identity rather than union with the divine.

When I was an atheist/agnostic I started reading Calvinist theories. I came to the conclusion that even if there was a God then he made me an atheist and was preventing me from having faith and being saved, so there was nothing I could do about it. When theists would argue with me I would just say "what if I'm predetermined to be atheist…what do you expect?"

It was just a weird way to think about things.

>>616538

You are ignoring his decree. God is sovereign over all things and nothing happens unless God wills it to happen. That includes the fall of man. But on the other hand we see that God can decree things which are contrary to his will but despite this we still know all things work out to the council of his will:

>In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Ephesians 1:11

I'm not really smart enough to understand but just do both anyway

>>616540

I don't believe in free will so I would say that humans have no independent actions but this does not free them from responsibility of their sins.

>>616542

>Yes but it's still a "coming" it's not a dragging

This is correct.

The way my late reformed pastor explained it was that a mother could wage war for 16 years to get her son to clean his room and comb his hair, and then in the blink of an eye he'd do both and more for that cute girl with the blue eyes down the road. So doth God's grace set us on the correct path.

>>616535

>I could perhaps help you with this and explain why this truth should in fact make you more zealous for good deeds.

Go for it, but I mean I lived the life of a sloth for years. Do you do soul-winning?

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=labour&begin=47&end=73

>>616547

it's an inheritance, we can accept or decline, not an injunction forced on us.

That isn't heaven or salvation.

A sinner who loves his sin and gets forced against his will to "have faith" and get "saved" will actually experience sort of hell.

>>616550

responsibility requires authentic choosing and doing. The ability to pick A over B.

Being made in the image of God comes with certain powers, the power to choose is among them.

>>616542

>Yes but it's still a "coming" it's not a dragging.

It is a dragging. God literally had to wrestle with us to bring us to him. If it was simply a choice then no one would come since no one loves God.

>God calls us and we respond and come or struggle against him.

I agree but he does not draw all people, only his elect.

>There's no love in being dragged,

You misunderstand. No one truly out of their own will loves God. We are all fallen and can't get back up. Because of this God by his gracious power takes it upon himself to bring is to him. Kind of like how a mother will give their child medicine that they don't know they like.

>>616550

There is no responsibility without identity: even in the event you must bear responsibility, i.e. punishment, it holds no weight.

>>616544

Explain

>>616545

Are you saying you have infallible knowledge of the future? Are you saying because God has a hidden decree you can do as you will and deny Christ and in the end just say "you did it?" He honest with yourself. You have been commanded to do something so do it.

>>616549

I like you

>>616555

Without will, identity, independent initiative, there is no real existence of the independent conscience. Even if the similitude of conscience were made to suffer, there would be no real weight to any of it.

>>616551

>Go for it, but I mean I lived the life of a sloth for years.

Well, my motivation is just wanting to get closer to God. Back in my youth I could sin without batting and eye and did it joyfully. I found peace and happiness in my sloth and because of this had a false sense of happiness. But after becoming a Christian I didn't find those things enjoyable anymore. It almost sickened me and the feeling of reverting back to my reprobate ways made me feel guilty. I'll continue later in depth.

>soul winning

Be serious. of course not.

>>616552

>it's an inheritance, we can accept or decline, not an injunction forced on us.

Do you have scripture to support that?

>A sinner who loves his sin and gets forced against his will to "have faith" and get "saved" will actually experience sort of hell.

You misunderstand. The believer, once he has been reborn by Christ, will seek God and find joy in him.

>responsibility requires authentic choosing and doing.

I disagree because scripture says otherwise. You can use all the convincing and worldly logic you want but my reason is under scripture. And if my reason isn't in line with that which is found in scripture then I know which one to drop.

>>616558

See what I wrote here>>616561

>>616562

Then prove to me biblically that the grass is responsible when I throw it to the wind.

>>616551

Just had a realization about growing in grace and living a holy life.

So, for the past couple months I've been trying to live a more Godly life and try to glorify God in all aspects of my life. I had so many ups and downs for the past few months that although at times it left me feeling defeated it ended up also enlightening me and have me new ways i could live a holy life.

The first thing I realised was that my views about living a holy life were quite skewered. My idea of a holy life was waiting futile the spirit came and repossessed you and made you feel like doing good works or praying and then you'll do it. And so if you were feeling down or not in the mood you wouldn't have too. This was my first mistake. We are not to wait for when we're in the mood or for when we have a "feeling" of the holy spirit. Was Christ in the mood to be crucified? Was Moses in the mood to talk to pharaoh when he had just woken up in the morning exodus 8:20 clearly, the true sign of the spirit is to do the work the Lord has commanded you even during times of hardship because when we do thing when they're hard they value of that act becomes much more appreciative. This is why we like rags to riches stories as opposed to the kid who's dad was the head of some law firm and the only reason why he even got to where he is was because of his dad.

The second was keeping a float. You see, after we have sinned greatly we tend to try and make amends. We pray and ask God for forgiveness so we can just move on to only later on fall back. The reason for this is because we have taken rest once the hard times have past and stopped trying to stay afloat. An analogy of this would be a swimmer who is drowning and is trying to get back up to the surface. He kicks and grabs whatever he can and if he finally does make it up to the surface that is when he relaxes he begins to sink again. So we as Christians are not to relax once we think we have become cool with God but now we are to stay afloat and live a Godly life.

And lastly is being a part of a community. This is by far the most crucial. You do not grown by being by yourself or being a hermit but rather by growing in a community and being a part of a group. This is why it is important to go to church because in there is the key to eternal life.

>>616563

When you throw it? You are not a sovereign God who decrees things. God is the porter of all of creation and you are his clay. If he decree that you sin then it is your fault.

>>616563

And I dare you to asked for scripture

>>616565

There is no community among prots. Or perhaps that's my own eternal isolation. (sorry for edge)

>>616569

Oh there is! There absolutely is! And our community isn't limited to a physical church either.

>>616566

Then prove to me with Scripture that if I, sitting her, am accused by God of a murder I did not commit, that I am totally responsible.

While I will not assume knowledge above myself, I don't think God operates like this.

>>616573

If you didn't do it then you are not punished! God doesn't arbitrarily punish you for things you didn't do.

>>616574

What's the difference between being falsely accused and being a mere clay pot hurled to the ground because it did not hold water- because water was never poured into it?

>>616577

Isn't that the same objection raised in romans 9:19?

>One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"

The answer comes in the next verses.

>>616539

>Im not an antinomian. A true believer will have his fruits sprout out and be shown throw love and charity. John Calvin even said, we are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.

Which is why, again, I say that in practice the two are in tandem, along with hope, the three virtues that the Council of Trent states are necessary for salvation. The real problem with sola fide is that is that it was used as a weapon to fracture the unity of Christians because people claimed that the confession (which is absolutely necessary for salvation) and indulgences (which when sold are abominable, but which are a joyous relief to those in purgatory otherwise) to the shedding of much blood and the loss of many souls.>>616556

>I disagree. It's not an argument against is but for us.

You yourself state that a faith without works cannot save but that a faith with works can.

>>616556

>>616545

See this here is the crux of the biscuit. Free will vs. determinism is possible argument in theory, but in practice when the solution to this specific anon's problem is "just choose," then the whole artifice falls apart. Absolute sovereignty does not mean that God cannot give us free will, in fact it means exactly the opposite. One cannot recieve a gift but from God, but one has to come to God to recieve the gift themselves.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither COMETH to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:19-21

>>616579

That's talking about determinsim, rather than a lack of freewill. Rather, it is parallel with the poem of Job. A pot with cracks will leak water even when water is poured into it.

>>616581

>Which is why, again, I say that in practice the two are in tandem, along with hope, the three virtues that the Council of Trent states are necessary for salvation.

The council of Trent clearly denied salvation by faith alone! what a lot of Catholics you and I see you doing it right now is obfuscate the differences and pass them off as mere detail! But in fact these differences have huge implications. Whereas the Catholics and eastern orthodox "claim"to believe we are saved by faith alone they in fact mean we must do the sacraments and can increase our justification and the way they achieve justification is by holding on. This is synergism and I hold that the good works we do are a by product of our true faith and do not save us but show that we have true faith.

>Absolute sovereignty does not mean that God cannot give us free will,

I never understood this argument. The bible clearly states that there is no free will and in this context the sovereignty even encompasses our agency.

There's a lot of people who want to continue in their sin, and therefore reject the importance of works, even when it is stressed that they are not necessary for salvation. Ironically, this puts many anti-works fundamentalist baptists-types in league with active homosexuals who profess a belief in Jesus Christ.

>>616585

Determinism is the lack of free will. Here God is clearly talking about God's part in salvation and that it is by no means on the part of man but those who God has predestined since eternity. Also, this is from jeremiah 18 and your alleged parallel from job doesn't make any sense.

>>616588

And are you going to blame the scriptures for that or the sinful fallen hearts of men? A lot of these issue rise up from neglecting parts of scripture as opposed to them simply rejecting works.

>>616590

Determinism isn't the lack of freewill. Rather, it is the determinability of the historical process. That is independent of freewill.

>>616594

That doesn't make any sense since Romans 9:20-22 is talking about individuals salvation and how he is the determiner of it. This isn't about historical events but God's active part in bringin people to him.

>>616587

>Whereas the Catholics and eastern orthodox "claim" to believe we are saved by faith alone

Nope we condemned that as anathema, as per 1 Corinthians 13

>they in fact mean we must do the sacraments and can increase our justification and the way they achieve justification is by holding on.

Who ever said that justification is in the realm of quantity? It's a quality imparted by the Holy Spirit, merited by the passion. And unless you are an antinomian then I'm sure you would agree that that justification can be lost through sin and need to be regained, which is why Christ instituted the sacrament of confession.

>The bible clearly states that there is no free will

Not according to John 3 19-21, unless God guides sinners into hell that is.

>>616596

>historical events

That's not what the historical process is. God being the ultimate determiner does not violate freewill.

>>616490

>I'm open to criticism and the fact that I could be wrong

Galatians 2:5

>>616498

>That last sentence there puts salvation back into our hands

Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 16 "Of Good Works" article 6

<Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreproveable in God's sight; but that He, looking upon them in His Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.

>>616504

>Faith saves, but faith does not save apart from works. We are to work out our salvation.

This reduces faith to a work. If faith is a thing we do and we control which is necessary to merit the favor of God and acquire eternal life, faith is no different from any other meritorious work and in reality justification is by works alone. According to the bible, faith is a work of God in the heart of a person, and they are not considered righteous for faith's sake, but because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ which they have acquired by faith alone.

>>616527

>If it all depends on God, then its impossible for man to do so alone

There is a word for those who believe it is possible for man to do so alone: Pelagians.

>God would not ask man to do the impossible, to work a miracle in himself, your reading of the bible doesn't make sense.

God does not "ask" men to believe, He commands them to. Their incapability to perform deeds of righteousness does not alter God's righteous character which demands righteousness from them. If man in his nature were incapable of goodness, would God be wicked to demand goodness from them? Must God permit wickedness?

>>616532

>That being said, as many others have pointed out, James 2, although a divisive chapter, emphasizes that apostolic and protestant views of justification differ only in theory, not in practice

I dissent. Certainly, the theoretical difference is more significant, being a matter of eternal signifigance, but this difference begets a practical difference in the field of assurance. Because of the lack of the distinction of law and gospel, an honest Roman Catholic has no hope that he will be saved. He knows his heart, and he knows his works, he knows he cannot keep with the standard of God and keep himself from mortal sin. The more deluded Roman Catholic believes he will have quite a stay in purgatory. But because we know that we have been forgiven freely because of the merits and death of Jesus Christ, we may be certain of our future blessedness.

>>616545

>I came to the conclusion that even if there was a God then he made me an atheist and was preventing me from having faith and being saved, so there was nothing I could do about it

And you know my assessment of your time as an atheist is? That this is not an honest objection but an excuse to continue in unrighteousness. You told yourself this so you could excuse yourself from the truth. You suppressed the truth of God for a lie, it was simply proof of the truth of that statement, that if God did not place faith in you, you would remain in your sins.

>>616597

>Nope we condemned that as anathema, as per 1 Corinthians 13

Typo. I was I was meant to just write faith!

>And unless you are an antinomian then I'm sure you would agree that that justification can be lost through sin

Lol, you don't need to be an antinomian to believe that we have external security.a true believer can fall at times and even backside but God will always guide him in the end! They sacraments prove that you believer you are saved by works.

>John 3 19-21

I believe that. But how are they brought to the light? Read all of John to understand:

>No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 6:44

>>616599

Then what would violate free will?

>>616600

>Galatians 2:5

?

>Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 16 "Of Good Works" article 6

??

>>616602

The denial of freewill would violate it. Freewill is a quality necessarily possessed by responsible actors.

Also, I don't understand the apparent conflict between determinism and freewill. They're completely compatible.

*I'm guessing you limit God in your understanding.*

>>616601

>eternal security

'Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."

If the disciples of St. John needed to watch out for their salvation then I'm pretty sure that eternal security is unbiblical. And they sacraments were instituted by Christ so don't ye go slandering em (not holding a grudge, but still).

>No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

That isn't a self evident proof against free will, and the emphasis on choice in John 3:19-21 shows that God's will and man's will work in tandem.

"It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him COMES to Me—

>>616604

Before anyone freaks out that's called occasionalism, although afaik no denominations actually profess it. At least that's what I hope you're getting at.

>>616604

Free will is never once mentioned in the bible. It's a foreign concept that only comes from a false presuppositions that you impose on the scriptures.

But how would you explain this:

>for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Acts 4:27-28

How am I limiting God? I'm just reading the scriptures. You are so blind that you can't even see how Romans 9:20-22 refutes any idea that we have the free will to come to God.

>>616603

I have three pieces of advice for you anon, 1. lurk moar 2. read moar 3. be less autistic

>>616600

>honest Roman Catholic has no hope that he will be saved.

An honest Roman Catholic has the assurance of a continuous stream of saints, marian apparitions, miracles, and general works of God to keep them from doubting their salvation. I highly doubt a protestant can say the same. I don't say that to condemn you, not to patronize, and God forbid I come off with either sentiment. But I do hope pray that some day you will come to the true faith that can produce the kind of men that can appear after death to cure a dude in my hometown of cancer. God Bless!

https://www.messengerofpadrepio.com/testimony

>>616606

>occasionalism

no

>>616611

>no

Good, although in that case you still need to explain.

>>616605

We should read the scriptures as a whole truly understand it. I hold the belief that although we can never lose our salvation, we can never known until we are on our death beds and have a full trust in Christ then! But the good works we do are also a good indication but are no infallible.

The sacraments don't take away your sins or save you as rome claims.

>That isn't a self evident proof against free will, and the emphasis on choice in John 3:19-21 shows that God's will and man's will work in tandem.

You have just neglected John 6:44 and then made scripture contradict itself. John 3:19-21 isn't even talking about what to think it is. The only reason why you think it is, is because you impose your presuppositions on to the text.

>>616610

>An honest Roman Catholic has the assurance of a continuous stream of saints, marian apparitions, miracles, and general works of God to keep them from doubting their salvation.

Doesn't make any sense. Those things don't save you unless you do the sacraments and go mass and do the whole lot. Ultimately, you have to live everyday in fear because your salvation isn't certain. Those saints won't help you a bit unless y live a sinless life. And let's just say you go through life with no mortal sins, all those venial sins will make you spend X amount of years in the flame of purgatory.

>>616610

>I highly doubt a protestant can say the same.

Our trust is in the finished work on the cross. Can you say the same?

>>616614

What do you mean by God determines all things? If we have free will and doesn't determine that then he doesn't determine all things and so you need to change what you just said.

>>616617

Determine does not mean dictate.

>>616618

What's the difference?

>>616618

>In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Ephesians 1:11

>>616613

>You have just neglected John 6:44 and then made scripture contradict itself.

How is two people working in tandem contradictory? The Bible does not refute the idea that man can come to God, it states it explicitly in John 6:45, which explains the operation of the previous line, and in John 3:19:21

You need to explain how two people's will's working in tandem is a contradiction then

>The only reason why you think it is, is because you impose your presuppositions on to the text.

Most of us have been trying to show us that that is in fact what you are doing.

>>616616

With the extraordinary power that the Holy Spirit worked through St. Padre Pio not five minutes from my old parish how could I not? God is alive with his Church, and I truly feel bad that you guys don't get to rejoce in that aspect of the faith. They don't have saints that can converse and recieve prayers directly from Christ like Marie of St. Peter, or who can give sight to a woman and with no pupils like Padre Pio, or read the sins of penitents in the confessional like the Cure of Ars, or be granted foretastes of heaven like St. Teresa of Avila, or get directly commended by Jesus like St. Thomas Aquinas, or cause the sun to dance like Our Lady of Fatima. The Catholic faith is the new home of the Holy Spirit, like Israel was the old. Protestants have tried to regain that through the charismatic movement but they'll never have the signs of that God grant's the Church, nor the comfort the bring.

Purgatory is true and eternal security is false, and if you want to learn why then Padre Pio, the man who bore the wounds of Christ, can tell you. I don't see how any Bible believing Christian can deny that he is a man of God given the countless miracles attributed to him, and he SAW the power of the sacraments firsthand.

>>616617

> If we have free will

We dont

>>616622

>Padre Pio

>St. Teresa of Avila

>St. Thomas Aquinas

>Our Lady of Fatima

Dare you compare yourself with saints (if they be saints)? Does their example not rather expose your wretched sinfulness?

>I don't see how any Bible believing Christian can deny that he is a man of God given the countless miracles attributed to him

They are lying wonders, all of them.

>>616490

Matthew 5:20

>"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

And you see, this is exactly why sola scriptura is bad. The Bible itself is obviously contradictory on this. Hence, the only answer is to hold what Christians have always held and still do - salvation =faith + works. So, to argue this from a purely textual basis is absolutely pointless.

That's the purpose of tradition, the Bible is not a Shakespearian text up for analysis in a literature class. I read something Copts say and I really like it - 'Christ did not write a book, he sent His Apostles to preach. Christianity is a faith of tradition and oral teaching'. And we can obviously see that in the Bible, how many times did the Apostles say they prefer to solve matters in person rather than in letter?

So no, I'm sorry, I'm not rolling the dice on salvation because some of a German monk 1500 years after Christ said so.

>>616624

>Does their example not rather expose your wretched sinfulness?

Do I not mourn my wretched sinfulness every day. Indeed I do, and God come to my aid if I do not.

>They are lying wonders, all of them.

So why can Gemma Di Giorgio see without pupils?

>>616626

>Do I not mourn my wretched sinfulness every day. Indeed I do, and God come to my aid if I do not.

Do you fear the wrath of God?

>So why can Gemma Di Giorgio see without pupils?

I said, lying wonders.

>>616490

Girl is stunning

>>616631

Indeed! Didn't read a single word of OP's post (sorry!), could only stare at her…she's so exotic and has a sort of captivating aura.

Must be my Mediterranean blood, but I'd like a woman like this as my wife.

>>616490

begom cadolig pepe

you've been found out

>>616622

>The Bible does not refute the idea that man can come to God

Then what does it mean by no one "can" come to me, unless the father draws him?

>John 6:45

You read John 6:45 with the previous verse in mind. This isn't some by their own free will but by the gracious gift of the father.

>John 3:19:21

This doesn't go against me at all. In fact it proves my point that even he good works we do are because of God working in us and not of our free will. John 3:19 states:

>And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Now, with the old testament in mind we discover that all people are called evil and wicked:

>God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God. Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 53:2-3

All people are corrupted and are not seeking God and this helps us understand John 3:21

>But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Notice how God carries out this act in man. Now you have to prove where human agency fits in without imposing it on the text because of your presuppositions.

>You need to explain how two people's will's working in tandem is a contradiction then

My point is that it's not biblical. We are saved by Grace alone and humans are simply the unworthy receivers of this gift. There is no place for man to add in his works.

>With the extraordinary power that the Holy Spirit worked through St. Padre Pio

Padre pio's miracles are probably false. But even if they are true have Deuteronomy 13:1-3 in mind:

>"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

>God is alive with his Church, and I truly feel bad that you guys don't get to rejoce in that aspect of the faith

We do believe that God is alive in the church. The True Church. I do not care one but about your false traditions and practices you have invented so you can worship God in your own way. All your icons and statues, your Gregorian chant and asceticism.

>These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23

>>616623

That's right

>>616625

>Matthew 5:20

You are ignorant of this text. You think it's saying that we need to be more righteous than the Pharisees then no one could enter heaven. The Pharisees and scribes were by far the most strict law abiding Jews there were. what Christ is saying here is that despite their "zeal" it was not enough to save them. Despite their hard work and ritualistic observance of the law they still could not be saved. And so our solution is the Christ. A person who lived that perfect life and gave it up on the cross so it would be as though we loved that perfect life.

>The Bible itself is obviously contradictory on this.

Ok, so you're not a Christian.

> the Bible is not a Shakespearian text up for analysis in a literature class.

Look at what rome has done to you. You have lost faith in the bible and rather follow tradition. You see, I follow tradition too but yours is a false man made tradition. You no longer believe in the self sufficiency of the scriptures and that the scriptures can interpret themselves. You rely on a man and have been corrupted by it.

>So no, I'm sorry, I'm not rolling the dice on salvation because some of a German monk 1500 years after Christ said so.

False, look at what Clement writes in chapter 32 in his letter to the church in Corinth:

>They were all glorified and magnified, not through themselves or their own works or the good deeds which they did, but through His will. And we also, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or by our own wisdom or understanding or piety or the works we have done in holiness of heart, but through the faith, by which the Almighty God has justified all men from the beginning;

>>616656

Kek, no fam!

>>616804

>Then what does it mean by no one "can" come to me, unless the father draws him?

That when the father draws them, then they can come. And it is through the teachings of the prophets, old and new, that the Father draws them. The later verse clarifies this point, the mechanism by which God draws, i.e. his word and his prophets.

>Now you have to prove where human agency fits in without imposing it on the text because of your presuppositions.

Again, the fact that it is God's will and works that we do does not exclude the agency of the believer.

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" -Deuteronomy 30:19-20

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." -Joshua 24:15

>Padre pio's miracles are probably false. But even if they are true have Deuteronomy 13:1-3 in mind

Women without pupils do not start miracuously seeing falsely, that's a stretch at best. And either way asserting that Padre Pio worshipped false gods is a tall order, especially given that he appeared after death proclaiming himself as a Servant of God and through the Holy Spirit cured people of cancer (https://www.messengerofpadrepio.com/testimony) so you're gonna need to back it up.

>We do believe that God is alive in the church. The True Church.

And how has God shown himself to The True Church and his servants but through countless miracles?

this whole thread is bait

probably by military fags

>>616839

Dude, I'm op and literally by myself against the whole of 8ch. What makes you think it's bait?

>>616839

and, out of curiosity

>military fags

???????

>>616850

>The text you use are prescriptive and do not actually prove that we have free will.

If you are describing these texts as prescriptions, as something one is supposed to DO in order to salvation, then you are already undermining your own position. Would you suppose that John 7:17, where Jesus says "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." is also denying choice? The Father draws through the prophets and the Holy Spirit and the believer responds.

>He does not preach the gospel.

He does not preach the false gospel of Calvin. You see how easy it is to dismiss someone with such an argument? I cannot dismiss you and you cannot dismiss me. Yet Calvin did not bear the wounds of Christ and kept them for years without healing or rotting, not did he give sight of a woman without pupils, nor did he come back dead, proclaiming to be a servant of God, and, through the power of the Holy Spirit, cure a dude from my hometown of cancer. These kinds of miracles are Acts of the Apostles tier and they are exclusive to apostolics.

>You won't have faith unless you see a sign? I don't think miracles are an infallible sign that someone is from God.

So said the Pharisees, when they claimed Christ had an evil spirit for his healing. Their sin was the only one Christ warned would not be forgiven. And either way there's a distinct lapse in the Paraclete's power if one breaks continuity with the Church. Miracles are recorded by the faithful straight from Moses to Francis. Afaik protestants cannot say the same.

>>616514

You've got a flaw in your logic.

>The meaning behind sola fide is that our faith the the ultimate authority in the sense that our faith, if it is true, leads us to do good works

You've missed the word "justification."

If the faith justifies AND spawns works, then he wouldn't have stated that by works a man is justified.

Whether or not faith leads to works is irrelevant as the works AND the faith are both required for justification.

>>616853

>is John 7:17 also denying choice?

In light of the entire scriptures, yes. I mean if you presuppose free will then yeah you will read this in that way. But we must have the entire scriptures in mind. And that's the fact that we are depraved incapable of doing any good.

>He does not preach the false gospel of Calvin. You see how easy it is to dismiss someone with such an argument?

I gave evidence. What did you give?

>Yet Calvin did not bear the wounds of Christ and kept them for years without healing or rotting,

They were probably false and self inflicted. You should also note that no one in the first 1200 years of Christian history ever had these marks.

>So said the Pharisees, when they claimed Christ had an evil spirit for his healing.

I don't care what you say he can do. We use scripture to determine what is and isn't true.

>Miracles are recorded by the faithful straight from Moses to Francis. Afaik protestants cannot say the same.

Don't wanna get into this debate but we have miracles too.

>>616855

>works AND the faith are both required for justification.

JUSTIFICATION=FAITH+HOPE+CHARITY AS PER TRENT

I'm sorry to yell but having this fight on protestant grounds is a good way to get scripture twisted around you and. 1 Corinthians 13 and 2 James are all you need to prove that and THE CATECHISM'S SECTION ON JUSTIFICATION should be read just so you don't preach something you shouldn't.

>>616855

>You've missed the word "justification."

Sola fide means we are justified by faith "alone."

>If the faith justifies AND spawns works, then he wouldn't have stated that by works a man is justified.

Ah, but you ignore the fact that the word used for justifed is dikaioó and this video goes in depth about the word: https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=12s&v=yQmPLJqJcGE

>Whether or not faith leads to works is irrelevant as the works AND the faith are both required for justification.

Wrong.

>>616859

>James 2

See what I wrote here:>>616514

As for 1 Corinthians 13. We believe that a true believer will show all those fruits.

The council of Trent was a mistake.

>>616859

For James 2 See what I wrote here:

>>616514

>>616858

>And that's the fact that we are depraved incapable of doing any good.

On our own, not through the power of the Holy Spirit, that is unless the apostles did no good at all. It is a misreading of scripture to assume that the inability of man to do good ALONE is. Isaiah speaks of sin and how it pollutes out righteous deeds, yet the blood sacrifice of Jesus, God's Son, washes away every sin and makes us clean. The Bible clearly states that man cannot do good on his own and it is through grace that he is saved. The Bible also explicitly states, in Deuteronomy and in John 7 as I have shown, that choice is necessary for accepting this grace and that it will not be imposed on us without our consent. You mentioned before prescriptive vs descriptive verses, and I feel like a comprehensive explanation of how the verses about free will and God's will are necessary here. Otherwise scripture just does not support Calvin's reading.

>I gave evidence. What did you give?

The power of God working through a Catholic saint to restore sight to the blind, health to the sick, and to conquer death. Padre Pio's stigmata, again, stayed open for 50 years without rotting and healing. Even if we concede that there may be unknown ways for him to have facilitated that himself, the rest of his life is a testament to his sanctity and God's power.

>I don't care what you say he can do. We use scripture to determine what is and isn't true.

And what scripture determines is that those who denied miracles only did so to protect their own interpretations, even at the expense of denying the miracle workers. Sola scriptura is a dead tradition, the Church is living. The Samaritans could argue that Jerusalem wasn't the holy city all they like based on their interpretation of the Torah, and Jesus certainly saved them anyways, but they did not have the prophets.

>>616864.

>As for 1 Corinthians 13. We believe that a true believer will show all those fruits

>And so a faith without works is not true saving faith whereas a faith with works is true.

Sounds about right to me, as long as those works derive from charity and not selfishness. But again, if faith without works is not faith, then faith and the works of charity work in tandem for salvation, and sola fide is bunk.

>>616490

that girl is beautiful

>>616927

I was just thinking that.

>>616522

>KJV

Well there's your problem!

>>616927

I think the really dark skin and really pale skin is really beautiful to me personally.

>>616811

"pss hey kids, wanna argue sola fide"

>>616959

Right? Too bad really dark skin is looked down upon to this degree. African american memes are sadly at fault here.

>>616869

>On our own, not through the power of the Holy Spirit

So the Spirit has to force evil men to do good for the good purpose of the Lord?

>It is a misreading of scripture

Prove it, don't just say it.

>that the inability of man to do good ALONE is

Is what?

>is unless the apostles did no good at all.

What is this? What does the apostles have to do with the argument? They were redeemed and indwelt with the Spirit by the time they were called apostles, so whatever point you were making is moot.

>Isaiah speaks of sin and how it pollutes out righteous deeds

Give us the verse. Here's what Isaiah says of the deeds of those who are not God's:

"We have all become like one who is unclean,

and all [כָּל־ or kāl- means every all. Not one excluded.] our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment [the Hebrew word means menstrual cloths]." (Isaiah 64:6)

There's more:

"Justice is turned back,

and righteousness stands far away;

for truth has stumbled in the public squares,

and uprightness cannot enter.

Truth is lacking,

and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.

The Lord saw it, and it displeased Him

that there was no justice.

He saw that there was no man,

and wondered that there was no one to intercede; " (Isaiah 59:14-16)

Paul says this: "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God…." (Romans 8:8) and "…for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." (Ro. 14:23b)

We are not arguing that unregenerate man cannot do good alone, we are arguing that he cannot do good at all. What we consider "good" acts are merely acts of God's mercy preventing the unregenerate from being as evil as they could be. And God shows mercy for His own glory and for the purpose for His own, see Genesis 50:20 and Romans 8:28.

>>617378

>>616869

>yet the blood sacrifice of Jesus, God's Son, washes away every sin and makes us clean.

The blood of Christ does nothing to the unregenerate, those who will not repent and receive true faith in Christ.

>and it is through grace that he is saved.

What a way to almost say the truth but ruin it by leaving two simple yet key words! It's by God's grace alone that man is saved.

>in Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy is a large book of laws. Give us the particular passage.

>John 7[:17]

You mean the John 7 where Jesus says "Yet none of you keeps the law" in verse 19?

>That choice is necessary for accepting this grace

It shows nothing of the kind. What it and other verse show that you need God's grace to chose to accept, not the other way around.

> it will not be imposed on us without our consent.

You will wait till hell freezes over before an unregenerate soul gives God consent. God shows mercy so that those whose hearts are healed will do and will want to do nothing but run to Him. Thanks be to God alone, see Romans 6:17.

>You mentioned before prescriptive vs descriptive verses, and I feel like a comprehensive explanation

Whatever interpretive paradigm the other guy, with all due respect to that Calvinist anon, gave you, it does not override the need to read in context, which you are not doing. I have against that paradigm. The burden of proof is on you and any other apostolic to show from Scripture positive (not negative) proof that we must aid or maintain our salvation with our works.

>The power of God working through a Catholic saint

And yet:

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God sis testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matthews 24:24)

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8-9)

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15a)

No, these supposed miracles, even those that are real, are not enough to prove your false gospel. You must prove from Scripture alone, because that contains all that God, through the godly prophets and apostles, intended to say.

>And what scripture determines is that those who denied miracles only did so to protect their own interpretations,

And as above, it says that those who quickly affirm miracles int he name of Christ do so because they are easily misled by false saints and false apostles.

>Sola scriptura is a dead tradition

Yet here we are.

>the Church is living.

The Post-Vatican II (Not Trent Rome or Vatican I Rome) Roman Church is in danger by your Pope, in ways more than this example:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-pope-francis-selling-out-the-chinese-underground-church-to-its-government

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/chinese-cardinal-theres-growing-concern-that-rome-will-sell-out-the-faithfu

Get ready for Rome: Post-Francis Edition with Knuckles!

>>616869

>>617386

>Sounds about right to me

Give us the sequence, because clearly you don't agree that what >>616864 said means what we mean.

>if faith without works is not faith, then faith and the works of charity work in tandem for salvation

According to Scripture:

A (true faith) by itself causes B (salvation) and C (works)

After that, B also causes C

A and B together cause C

Does that mean A and C together can cause B? No that's a post-hoc fallacy. You must establish A and C together directly causes B, separate from the other causes.

And from Scripture we know that by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone we are justified unto salvation from the just wrath of God. According to Scripture A and C together never will cause B, a one time event anyway, directly.

>>617394

And to show you that my logic is sound:

Exposure to freezing temperatures by itself causes exposure to ice and hypothermia.

After that, exposure to ice also cause hypothermia.

Exposure to both freezing temperatures and ice causes hypothermia.

But freezing temperatures and hypothermia together do not cause exposure to ice, nor together do they necessarily imply that you were exposed to ice (being in an ultra-dry freezer or exposure to space if you could survive everything else that will kill you).

>>617378

>>617386

>>617394

There's quite a bit to digest here, and while I understand the reason's for this post you should at first understand that you are quoting a 1v1 catholic v calvinist debate and therefore the references to books w/o specific verses are referencing OP's references. To address your points though:

>We are not arguing that unregenerate man cannot do good alone, we are arguing that he cannot do good at all.

Which is of course biblically sound. As the Catechism of the Church [with scriptural references if you wish to debate them] states :

>With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

The Council of Trent teaches that faith, hope, and charity (not works, as protestants claim) are all necessary for salvation. With true faith, as we both agree, the other two flow naturally, as to deny the Holy Spirit's inspiration towards good works is uncharitable and sinful. As you can see as well, what your third post thinks is the Catholic interpretation is not in fact what we teach. It's not about working towards through your own efforts but not denying the Holy Spirit working within you, lest the fate of Ananias and Sapphira, along with all other sinners, be yours. Against a Calvinist, the main goal of my argument was to defend free will and the necessity of cooperation in order to do good through, with, and from God. As such I'm sorry to say that I really don't understand why you made this first post at all as none of it conflicts with Catholicism, but either way it isn't the meat of your argument so whatever.

>What a way to almost say the truth but ruin it by leaving two simple yet key words! It's by God's grace alone that man is saved.

To which the Church says, continuing:

>Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."

Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.''' Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

>It shows nothing of the kind. What it and other verse show that you need God's grace to chose to accept, not the other way around.

Why do you think I said otherwise? Again, I'm refuting a Calvinist here and quite frankly it's pretty clear you are out to twist my words on this subject. But either way the Church's position is laid out here as clearly as possible, so I will wait to see what your response is.

>You will wait till hell freezes over before an unregenerate soul gives God consent

Were not all souls unregenerate until they were moved by God's mercy through the Holy Spirit? Once again, this seems like a point without a point.

>And as above, it says that those who quickly affirm miracles int he name of Christ do so because they are easily misled by false saints and false apostles.

Schismatics can cry false miracles all they like, but again, they don't have saints coming back from the dead to heal the sick. Certainly fear of false spirits is of utmost importance, through Muhammed and Jospeh Smith they have damned millions, yet you should know that at Padre Pio on multiple occasions dispelled the Devil's, disguised as his superior and a penitent respectively, by speaking the names of Jesus and Mary. The kingdom of the devil is not divided against itself, and in fact, according to his writings, it came out in full force to physically beat the crap out of Padre Pio on a regular basis.

Lastly, as for the claims that your gospel, that of OSAS, is the truth, I will simply ask whether or not Paul, who exhorted the faithful to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling," did not live in fear of God's judgment.

And to link the Catechism itself because I'm and idiot who doesn't know that greentexts don't have footnotes with scriptural references:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

>>616490

I think the debate comes from confusing work and faith. Because to have faith is to be a good Christian and do the right THING (which is often work).

The whole argument is stupid, if you think you can have faith but not help dying people on the side of the road that would be no issue to help them, or to keep sinning, or to talk bad about God then you do not have the works to have the faith.

Furthermore western christianity (baptists, catholics, etc.) View sinning as crimes with God being a judge and the trial being your death. Because they incorrectly view sinning as breaking law rather than being detached from God they believe lawfully that works are meaningless or are to prove the faith which is like your personal jury.

In short. To have faith means to have works. Lent is not really work but a way to discipline yourself for God to honor Jesus' Ressurection.