/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

There's a time to love, and a time to hate

>>616175

I think we can hate people's weaknesses and sins, just like we should hate our own weaknesses and sins, but not hate ourselves or others as people.

>>616179

21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

at times, true love looks and acts like hate; still, even in that case, our wrath must be one to lead them to Him.

>>616183

That's akin to vengeance, vengeance is for God alone, not us.

He who loves Me, says the Lord, will keep My commandments (John 14:15, 23) ; and ' this is My commandment, that you love one another' (John 15:12) Thus he who does not love his neighbour (Mark 12:30-31) fails to keep the commandments, and so cannot love the Lord.

Blessed is he who can love all men equally, for everyone is a neighbor.

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>>616189

2 Chronicles 19:2

And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the Lord? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the Lord.

Love Thy enemy, don't love them that hate the Lord.

>>616183

this

>>616170

Because there are distinctions between people and we have limits for we are human.

>>616488

>but I like my hate and want to keep it!

then suffer accordingly and you will not be free.

>Love Thy enemy, don't love them that hate the Lord.

If they are your neighbors you are to love them.

Everyone is your neighbor.

>>616663

>we have limits for we are human

Jesus said you ought to be perfect like your heavenly father. Imperfection is for the unsaved. Get born again.

>>616189

>Blessed is he who can love all men equally, for everyone is a neighbor.

Things Jesus never said.

>>616673

>love your neighbor

>so you mean my literal neighbors right Jesus?

lol

go read the story of the good samaritan.

>>616704

some buddhist teachings are surprisingly useful, regardless of your religion

I never understand the hate toward extremist Muslims. These are people who have fallen down a dark path, much more than we can ever understand.

Much like Europe for hundreds of years was a place of war often in the name of religion, perhaps one day it will change, but the fact is many become fanatical out of legitimate concerns such as American imperialism, make no mistake, the West is guilty of things and creates the problems in the Middle East.

Young men are drawn to extreme ideologies in Islam out of a sense for identity, very similar to young men in the West putting their identity into Alt-right or Antifa.

I feel sorry for these people.

>>616734

I hate snakes. I understand the nature of snakes. They only do what they do to survive. And I hate them. My hatred isn't born of ignorance of snakes. I know their nature. The impact they have on my life however is such that, I hate them.

I'm Christian now so I must move beyond this hate but there's no way my sentiments are incomprehensible.

>>616715

You go read it, only the Good Samaritan was a neighbor to that man, not the priest or the levite. Everyone being his neighbor is a direct contradiction of the moral of the story

How do you pray for Stalin?

>>616848

For his soul if he's in purgatory for some reason.

>>616715

Just point me to the part where it says

a) to love everyone equally

b) that everyone is your neighbour

I am waiting. You can ask your leftypol friends for advice if you cannot find an answer, but coming here and thinking you can outtheology the centre of the right wing death squads is pretty cocky.

>>616734

>Much like Europe for hundreds of years was a place of war often in the name of religion

>>>/reddit/

> the West is guilty of things and creates the problems in the Middle East.

That's a peculiar way of spelling JEWS

>>616877

>That's a peculiar way of spelling JEWS

There's no Jews in charge of Western countries, name the leaders of the Western countries who are Jews.

>>616925

>He thinks presidents and primer-ministers have the power

The president of France for exemple is an ex-employed of the Rothschild bank, which of course is jewish, and we all know the power isn't in the hand of the chiefs of the administrative regions of Europe but of banks and of the owner of medias. The first ex-employed in Rotschield french president was Pompidou, who opened the logic of the debt. Because it's the subject, Sarkozy (former french president of jewish ancestry) made the war against libya under the councel of (((Bernard Henri levy))). But the most important is the facts the jews are in charge of quasi-all the medias, even some "christian" newspaper like "La croix" (it's the most known) owned by (((Patrick Drahi))) of israelian nationality also. All the french president always show their submission to jews and sionist, legislatively and symbolicaly. The power of the jews is their lobbies, in the finance, the media, in political party also.

>>616925

Kike.

>>616170

Loving your enemies doesn't mean you can't kill them. Sometimes killing them can be the merciful thing to do.

>>617014

Explain why, because you seem to be saying that we should kill people without giving them a chance to repent

>>617015

>kill people without giving them a chance to repent

Just like the thief on the cross, they have the chance to repent as we are killing them.

>>617016

>they have the chance to repent as we are killing them

If the sinner has repented, why are you killing him? Jesus told us to forgive. Matt 18:22. Jesus also told us not to condemn. Luke 6:37. Jesus said he who is without sin may cast the first stone. John 8:7.

A sinner killing other sinners–his neighbors–for their sins is inconsistent with everything Jesus taught.

Come to Jesus, friend.

>>617015

If God let them die, it's because it's the moment for them to die (you kill them for a good reason right), and in order to them to repent you give them a priest, time, a possibility to have a confession before executing them.

>>617025

It's not a murder to make justice, like the hebrews made under the mosaic law.

>>617060

justice, politics, to make an example, don't let crime unpunished, to preserve social order, because even if he repent he can still be attracted by the same sins, because you can't really know if they regret and are not faking… The spiritual moral of God is not the political moral, stop confusing.

>>617062

>The spiritual moral of God is not the political moral

You are not God. You are a sinner in no position to condemn others for their sins.

>>616925

>There's no Jews in charge of Western countries, name the leaders of the Western countries who are Jews.

The true leaders of our society are not in government positions, they are the people those 'governing' are dependent upon. If you are an US American your media is dominated by jews, your 'justice' system is dominated by jews, and your 'politicians' are either Israeli dual citizens (which a lot of US americans do not even realize) or in the bag of the powerful jewish lobby.

>>617009

Yes my kike friend, Israel is an ethnically jewish state and it strives to stay like this. In this sense it is special, because Israel is the only state in the world that is allowed to strive for ethnic homogenity. Something strictly forbidden to the goyim nations. But quod licet iovis non licet bovis, and we are just cattle, am I right?

>Who would be considered not a neighbour?

People that are not in proximity to me. A neighbour is someone that is close to you, that you are (or rather were in prematerialistic times) dutybound to care for. For example if I own an apartment, and one of my family members is in dire need of one lest he became homeless, yet I give away the apartment to some random Mehmet for the good goy points, then I did not fulfill the commandment and am even worse than jews like you.

>>617060

Death penalty is necessary for justice. If you do not think so yet call yourself christian then you are in for a tough awakening after the story I'm gonna tell you…

>>617064

We are perfectly able of reason and therefore should make sound judgement. You failed, jew.

>>617097

It’s a different kind of “love” than the one of this rotten world; not an easy one, but a love which one must learn to understand and put in use.

I was raped a few years ago by my roommate, and he kept making fun of me for that…it took me months, but I learnt to forgive him, to (in a way) love him again, even if I felt often a surge of disgust and fear when he came back into my mind as just memories.

>>617060

>>617097

You guys are misled if you think that loving someone means being nice to them or letting them do whatever they want. Sometimes the best way to love someone is to stop them doing evil. Also keep in mind God's love for us. Just as God loves us and is willing to forgive us, he does not refrain from punishing us. Forgiveness and punishment are not mutually exclusive, either for God or for humanity.

>>617101

First of all there are no women on the internet. Secondly, how exactly did your roommate repent and pay back the damage done to you? Did he face the law and confess all his crimes? If not then why would you be a fool and enable him to continue being a criminal?

>>617104

I never said I’m a woman; he did not repent, and while I left the room and never saw him again, I forgave him. I don’t know how you feel, but I can empathise and give you my advice: learn to forgive and to love…not the sappy “love” of the world, but the same true love which comes from God in Hos teachings and His sacrifice. Surely we must be like He told us: shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves; which means we can fight back, but at the right time and in the right way, never for retaliation but always out of a desire of love (even when it looks like we are hurting others: Jesus flipped tables and whipped out people too).

>>617105

> he did not repent

>I forgave him

I know what I need to know.

> but the same true love which comes from God

The love and forgiveness of God, which requires repentence? I think we are onto something here …

>>617106

Are you suggesting that we only need to forgive people if they repent of their sin? If so, that seems pretty unorthodox. Is there any evidence from scripture or tradition for that?

Love in this sense is different from emotional love right?

I dont think it's possible to love everyone is it?

>>617109

>Are you suggesting that we only need to forgive people if they repent of their sin?

Yes?

> Is there any evidence from scripture or tradition for that?

I could look something up, but in general: God forgives humans but requires repentance (confessing your sins and at least the sacrifice on the cross in your stead). The same applies when you go and confess your sins to a priest, he will order you to commit certain acts to repent. Which for example may include for a rapist to confess his crimes before the police. You will not be able to go to a priest, mention your crimes that you are not sorry for nor willing to right, and then receive legitimate absolution. Since all of the before mentioned is true, what leads you to believe that this should be different between average people?

> that seems pretty unorthodox

Orthodoxy is the most unorthodox of things in the church of nice after all.

>>617112

English is a weird language that does not differentiate between different types of love. The love we are talking about is called caritas (charity) in Latin and completely different from let's say amor or eros. If you are willing the good of another without consideration for your personal gain you can make a good case for love.

>>617112

Love in the Christian sense is willing the good of the other, it carries some sentimental attachment but that's secondary.

When Jesus says to love your neighbor and love your enemy it means to will what is good for them, to do what is good for them, to pray positively for them.

Ill will is a toxin, a venom that hurts you. This advice is actually for our own good, to purify our hearts.

Sure there are different levels of sinners, some actually hate God and hate his people, but ideally we should love them as well, we should will what is good for them. This doesn't mean being complacent and letting them run amuck…

Not sure why there is so much hostility in this thread against "loving everyone"…God wants all men to be saved and to come to the truth and Jesus died for sinners, not for saints.

>>617102

> keep in mind God's love for us. Just as God loves us and is willing to forgive us, he does not refrain from punishing us.

You are not God. You don't have the right to punish another sinner.

>>617100

>Death penalty is necessary for justice.

I disagree. When did Jesus advocate for killing anyone? Jesus told us to forgive Matt 18:22. Jesus commanded us not to condemn. Luke 6:37. Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. Matt 5:38-42. Jesus actively stopped sinners from killing the adulterous woman. John 8.

We even see most countries in the world today still functioning after abolishing the death penalty.

>>617100

>We are perfectly able of reason and therefore should make sound judgement.

We should make sound judgement, and yet, we don't. >>617062 even tried to argue killing is acceptable because "you can't really know if they regret and are not faking". Clearly there are limits to our reasoning and judgments.

>>617097

>So I should love the man who kidnapped my sister?

Yes. Jesus told us to love your enemies, so we should love your enemies.

>I should love my sister for being a fool and falling for him?

No. You should love your sister despite that. Jesus loves us despite us being fools, and you should do the same.

>How am I supposed to love my sister

With difficulty. Following Jesus isn't easy. After all, anyone can love someone who loves them back, but if you love those who hate you back, then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High

>I should love that man's family?

Love your enemies, and do good to those who hate you. It's not complicated. Difficult, yes. It's been said that it is the hardest commandment of Jesus. But it's the second most important part of Christianity, after loving God.

>Are you for real?

I'm struggling to understand how you managed to find your way to this board while missing the absolute core of the Christian faith - love. It'd be like someone on /islam/ saying that we should be polytheists or someone on /buddhism/ saying that we should try to obtain as much wealth as possible.

> I should welcome him with open arms and make him food?

If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

You won't convince anyone about the love of Jesus by hating them.

>I should cater to his every need?

If you can, why not? If you physically cannot, or could be more productive helping others, that's fair. But if something won't stop you from helping others, there is no (godly) reason not to, unless you are directly helping them do evil.

>Sometimes you have to be angry

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

>Jesus got mad

But did he harbour hate?

>how am I supposed to love someone who did something so horrible to family?

The same way that Jesus loves you despite your sins.

>you should love everyone despite their transgressions against you

I'm not sure about how much you know about Christianity, but surely you've heard of the Lords Prayer, which says "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us".

Get a bible, and read the four gospels. Reading them in order that they are printed works. Get out a physical pen and paper, and write down any commandments of Jesus as you see them, with no exceptions. Some of them will seem absurd. That's to be expected, as many (perhaps most) teachings of Jesus have been forgotten by the mainstream church. Sometimes they might even be contradictory. Mark them and come back to them later so that you can figure out a way that reconcile them. Ignore any miracles and the like, unless they are done to explain a teaching, because you either already believe in them and there's no point to being distracted, or you don't believe them and there's no point to being distracted by them. Once you're done with the four gospels, move on to the rest of the new testament, and do the same.

>>617148

>We should make sound judgement, and yet, we don't. >>617062 (You) even tried to argue killing is acceptable because "you can't really know if they regret and are not faking". Clearly there are limits to our reasoning and judgments.

you judge on objective moral and rules, the one who don't respect these (maybe a rapist) have to be punished, but he can still regret and be forgiven by God. That's why you pray for your ennemi before he get killed.

>When did Jesus advocate for killing anyone? Jesus told us to forgive Matt 18:22. Jesus commanded us not to condemn. Luke 6:37. Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. Matt 5:38-42. Jesus actively stopped sinners from killing the adulterous woman. John 8.

Saints, like Thomas aquinas advocated death penalty, some, in a position of autority even used it (like saint louis), sure it must be used for a good reason and the sinner should always have time to repent. But Jesus told us to let to caesar what belongs to caesar, he clearly made a difference between politics and spiritual, between the justice of man and the justice of God. By killing someone you just kill his body, not his soul (you give him the possibility to repent).

>>617210

He endorsed death penalty for heretics, not merely any kind of criminals. Aquinas lived in the medieval ages. Back then, the best solution for stopping someone from spreading his idea to the masses was killing them. In the IT and globalism era nowadays I don't think that's still appropriate because ideas can't die easily.

>>617214

<I'm going to completely reject the bible but at least I'm not a cuck

But for real, what on earth do you mean when you say that advocating punishment is love for the person?

And you can't just do halfheartedly handwave bible verses away because you don't agree with them. If you forgive people (like the bible explicitly says you need to do), there is no reason to use the death penalty. Jesus may not have said that it was wrong to kill the woman, but he forgave her and let her free. Actions speak louder than words. If killing her was the right thing to do, Jesus would've said that the lover needs killing rather than not killing anyone.

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath.

>>617222

>>>/leftypol/

>>617237

You know what else destroys Christianity? Watering it down with whatever non-Christian beliefs you have, turning it into something that the only Christian part left is saying 'lord lord'. It's not just you, it's all of us really. And what is with your obsession with calling everything you don't like Jewish? There's real Jews out there you can call Jewish you know.

And you're not handwaving a single bible verse, true. You're handwaving many of them.

And if killing her was the right thing to do, Jesus would've killed her. Jesus did not kill her. Jesus was without sin. Therefore killing her was not the right thing to do.

And the bible does not say that we (in our time) should murder people (in fact it says that we shouldn't even harbour hate for another person or we will face punishment in the hell of fire) for their own good.

>>617237

All you need to do is prove that every person is Lawgiver and Judge, and is able to save and destroy. And prove that we are to judge our neighbor.

>>617215

False. He advocated the principe of the death penalty in order to defend common good.

In the summa contra gentiles he say :

"The fact finally that as long as they live the villains can make amends doesn't impeach that they can be put justly to death, because the risk their life give is bigger and more certain than the good waited from this amend". the translation is from me, sorry for the bad english

Also Saint Louis, was a friend of saint thomas aquinas, and he killed a good bunch of people as a french king.

In fact, people against the principle of the death penalty are making like atheist, viewing the eartly life as the final good of man, but it's not.

The effective efficiency of the death penalty is another political debate depending on circumstances, country,…

>>617249

It's also been a long time since I read the Summa so I've forgotten the correct translation. But what I understand from that verse is, death penalty is just when waiting for the criminals' amends is risky. It sounds like justifiable homicide more than death row.

>>617252

No, the point is to distinguish the amends and the punishment, the punishment have value of expiation for thomas aquinas. A condamned can confess (And we hope he does) before confession, but and it doesn't empeach the fact he is still a risk for the society.

>The purpose of the punishment(effort) is the expiation and the preservation of the social order IaIIae,qu.102

Exodus 21, 12-17 :

>12 He that striketh a man with a will to kill him, shall be put to death.

>13 But he that did not lie in wait for him, but God delivered him into his hands: I will appoint thee a place to which he must flee.

>14 If a man kill his neighbour on set purpose and by lying in wait for him: thou shalt take him away from my altar, that he may die.

>15 He that striketh his father or mother, shall be put to death.

>16 He that shall steal a man, and sell him, being convicted of guilt, shall be put to death.

>17 He that curseth his father, or mother, shall die the death.

You shills aren't even able to look one chapter after the "you shall not kill"

>>617263

I've browsed new advent.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article2

No, he said that it is good to kill a man when he is harmful like a beast. And what is harmful about a safely locked up criminal?

>You shills aren't even able to look one chapter after the "you shall not kill"

But Jesus directly referenced Exodus 21 in the mount sermon, and turn the other cheek He said. There's a good commentary on this.

>[21:22–25] This law of talion is applied here in the specific case of a pregnant woman who, as an innocent bystander, is injured by two fighting men. The law of talion is not held up as a general principle to be applied throughout the book of the covenant. (But see note on Lv 24:19–20.) Here this principle of rigorous accountability aimed to prevent injury to a woman about to give birth by apparently requiring the assailant to have his own wife injured as she was about to bring new life into his family. However, it is debatable whether talion was ever understood or applied literally in Israel. In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus challenges his audience to find a deeper form of justice than the supposed equilibrium offered by talion (Mt 5:38–40).

>>617243

Do you watch CNN a lot? Are you gonna hand out open society leaflets next? The goyim are just becoming wise to the tricks, there is nothing to be done about it.

>Therefore killing her was not the right thing to do.

The right thing to do was to execute both of them as laid out in the law.

>>617246

Corinthians 1 6,2 and following

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Do not say that you are the temple of the Lord, writes Jeremiah (cf. Jer. 7:4); nor should you say that faith alone in our Lord Jesus Christ can save you, for this is impossible unless you also acquire love for Him through your works.

As for faith by itself, the devils also believe, and tremble (Jas. 2:19).

Four Hundred Texts on Love