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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 8d39b04101a8c48⋯.jpg (364.61 KB, 1200x1800, 2:3, Владыка_Корнилий_8620-1.jpg)

48e3f7 No.615102

Imagine your watch has been taken from you; You catch the thief, he is put before a court, proved guilty, and sentenced to a just imprisonment: Then what? Do you just walk away? Have you found justice? The thief may have had justice done him—but where is your watch?

Point is that a "just" result can't be found simply through punishment alone. No doubt punishment is a part of the picture. But, as any victim knows, "justice" isn't reducible to punishing the perpetrators. Crimes (and sin) create relational and psychological and metaphysical problems that punishment cannot heal.

So what is needed for justice to be done? Real justice involves the reconciliation of the victim and the perpetrator. Justice involves peacemaking and restitution. If God seeks ultimate justice for sins then what is required is actually ultimate reconciliation between Himself and his subjects.

So it would seem that critical to this process of atonement is the full engagement of the one who did the crime. God cannot bring justice without our participation and our healing. Punishment might be part of the process of justice but it is not the end and conclusion of it…

e3d635 No.615123

>>615102

The problem is that right here and right now people deny the reconciliation that is free for them. People are blinded by the god of this fallen world, entirely of their own wills. You can prove God from all angles, you can show them miracles, and you could call down angels to slap them, but they wouldn't believe.

So they have chosen their own conclusion, and their punishment fits the crime. It's especially sad because it didn't have to be this way, they did that on their own.


94ffa1 No.615134

>>615102

Wow dude, God is God… what he thinks of Justice is not a balance same as with love, God Justice is alien to our human minds, but basically, Sins are stuff God hates, and he hates in absolutes, there is no second glances or considerations nor excuses, he hates shit that may even seem random and if you like them, well to bad, God wants nothing to do with you, this is why Sin takes you further from God, you cant convince God to like things he does not, he is a jealous and vengeful God.


b6d9fd No.615145

You're conflating justice with vengeance. Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


13bce7 No.615151

>>615134

Calvinism was a mistake.


dd1418 No.615168

>>615102

I was listening to David Wood's debate with Shabir Ally. God bless David and, well God bless them both. But towards the end, David put forth a discrepancy between Islam and Christianity, seeing that Islam holds God to be imperfect in justice and Christianity holds God to be perfect in justice. David said that perfect justice is incompatible with perfect love until the cross because the cross is a juridical transferring of sins such that God will appease Himself by punishing Himself.

When I heard that, the same thought ran through my mind as is in your post. Perfect justice is not perfect punishment. Perfect justice is perfect reconciliation. Not only is it perfect redemption, but also a perfect removal of the scars of our stumblings. As it winds up, perfect justice turns out to be the same thing as perfect love. What absolute joy!


94ffa1 No.615174

>>615145

I don't understand why he needs to take vengeance to some kids playing Yugioh or whatever, like, what the hell did they did to him?


13bce7 No.615188

>>615168

>perfect justice is incompatible with perfect love until the cross because the cross is a juridical transferring of sins such that God will appease Himself by punishing Himself.

If God needs to exact perfect justice in order to have perfect love by pouring out his wrath on an innocent then he has neither perfect justice nor perfect love. The God of penal substitution is as psychopathic as the God of Islam.

Little wonder that Calvinists like Jame White find such an affinity with muslims.


265b20 No.615249

>>615188

Can you remind us of the alternative to penal substituion? As that's the one I always assume everyone works on the understanding of and am not familiar with any of the other theories


f907de No.615256

>>615249

In simplified form, Christ became incarnate to purify the flesh and He died to conquer death by death. In defeating death, he has saved us from its grip. Now, in dying, we enter the presence of the Lord, which is either truly heaven or truly hell, depending


5aa1e9 No.615271

Origen, go back to being biblical scholar, your eschatology suck.

On more serious note, eternal punishment is just not because it deals with temporal consequences. It's just because it deals with eternal consequences. For in sin, we kill our soul, for grace is life, and mortal sin, sin that kills, cannot exist alongside grace. For what in common does Christ have with Belial? What does Light with Darkness?

Etenral consequences of sin is that you are separated from God. And when you die, your will is absolutly free from time and places. But this means it's fixed. If you die while willingly seprating thyself from God, He, in his Justice and Mercy, will accept your free choice. He left all of Adam to our counsel after all.

But here is the deal that many seem not to see. God is Love. God is Light. God is Life. God is Truth. God is Goodness itself, perfect in every aspect of Good. And unrepented separte themselves from this Good. So it's logically fallow that they are separted from eternal Glory eternally.

Lastly, let me use Aquinas words:

Sin incurs a debt of punishment through disturbing an order. But the effect remains so long as the cause remains. Wherefore so long as the disturbance of the order remains the debt of punishment must needs remain also. Now disturbance of an order is sometimes reparable, sometimes irreparable: because a defect which destroys the principle is irreparable, whereas if the principle be saved, defects can be repaired by virtue of that principle. For instance, if the principle of sight be destroyed, sight cannot be restored except by Divine power; whereas, if the principle of sight be preserved, while there arise certain impediments to the use of sight, these can be remedied by nature or by art. Now in every order there is a principle whereby one takes part in that order. Consequently if a sin destroys the principle of the order whereby man's will is subject to God, the disorder will be such as to be considered in itself, irreparable, although it is possible to repair it by the power of God. Now the principle of this order is the last end, to which man adheres by charity. Therefore whatever sins turn man away from God, so as to destroy charity, considered in themselves, incur a debt of eternal punishment.

Punishment is proportionate to sin. Now sin comprises two things. First, there is the turning away from the immutable good, which is infinite, wherefore, in this respect, sin is infinite. Secondly, there is the inordinate turning to mutable good. In this respect sin is finite, both because the mutable good itself is finite, and because the movement of turning towards it is finite, since the acts of a creature cannot be infinite. Accordingly, in so far as sin consists in turning away from something, its corresponding punishment is the "pain of loss," which also is infinite, because it is the loss of the infinite good, i.e. God. But in so far as sin turns inordinately to something, its corresponding punishment is the "pain of sense," which is also finite.


5aa1e9 No.615273

>>615168

>David said that perfect justice is incompatible with perfect love until the cross because the cross is a juridical transferring of sins such that God will appease Himself by punishing Himself.

Christ as God delivered Himself up to death by the same will and action as that by which the Father delivered Him up; but as man He gave Himself up by a will inspired of the Father. Consequently there is no contrariety in the Father delivering Him up and in Christ delivering Himself up

God the Father did not pour out His wrath on His Son; rather, according to His plan He delivered Christ over to the Jews and Romans (i.e. permitted Christ to be arrested and flogged and crucified), and they freely poured out their wrath on Christ. There was no contrariety between the Father and the Son during the Passion, no loss of love from the Father to the Son or the Son to the Father. The Father wholly and entirely loved His Son during the entire Passion. By one and the same divine will and action, the Father allowed the Son to be crucified and the Son allowed Himself to be crucified.

Otherwise, if the Father had wrath for men while the Son had love for men, this either (1) conflicts with the doctrine of the Trinity, in making the Father and the Son be at odds with each other [i.e. “drives a wedge”]; if Christ loves men, then so does the Father, or if the Father has wrath for men, then so does Christ, which doesn’t fit with “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do,” or (2) it conflicts with the doctrine of the incarnation, in making the Son’s divine will to be that of divine wrath directed toward His own human nature, and either (2a) the Son’s human will contradicting His divine will, by loving His human nature while the divine will hates His human nature, or (2b) the Son’s human will being in perfect conformity with the divine will, and in His enraged human will pouring out wrath on His own human nature and wanting to punish it and kill it, like Phinehas in Numbers 25:7, but toward His own flesh.

Crucifixion was not Christ-takes-the-divine-wrath atonement. It was substitutionary and satisfactory atonement.


9bb5f4 No.615364

Why stop there OP. Explain how god is under the modern world's obligation to forgive and bring Satan back into heaven, how all of the fall was a miss understanding, and god is obligated to redeem to acceptance all.

This is heresy, god directs and defines what love, justice, and redemption are. The world does not. You should learn the lord's definition of this concepts, as your argument will make no logical sense once you define the terms.

Jesus taught of eternal punishment and darkness. To be christian is to accept and learn from Christ. You have some study and soul searching OP.


fefc4f No.615420

This is probably true. Gods justice is his mercy. He's always just and merciful, they aren't in opposition. Which is why hell is said to be a hospital for souls….once they are reconciled they move on but the process is painful.


265b20 No.615452

>>615168

>because the cross is a juridical transferring of sins

That doesn't sound like an alternative to penal substitution to me, rather it sounds like a generic statement that can go alongside any of the atonement theories?


265b20 No.615776

>>615452

I just realised I quoted and responded to the wrong post, meant for >>615256 and ignore my greentext


ebb5db No.615866

>>615102

I don't think God cares about your watch. God wants you to forgive those who trespass against you. God said nothing about getting your watch back.


ab4eaf No.615887

>>615420

>Which is why hell is said to be a hospital for souls….once they are reconciled they move on

W-what




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