/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>613079

what is a baby accountable for? give examples.

>>613084

Maybe I shouldn't have said baby I'm thinking more of toddlers. They lie, steal and sometimes intentionally hurt other children.

>>613088

>Maybe I shouldn't have said baby I'm thinking more of toddlers.

why? what's the difference? morally they are both retarded and don't understand the context of their actions and the consequences.

>>613091

I know but if children are saved because they don't know right and wrong than doesn't that also mean that all of north and south america were saved before European colonization?

>>613093

Paul wrote about this in his letter to the Romans. Humans have a natural law written in their hearts and are judged by it if they have no revelation. But they have to be fully rational and mature enough, and not retarded or babies.

>>613079

Conceived in sin.

If there was no risk of them going to hell then abortion would be a blessing as you would be sending kids to heaven.

>>613114

That's exactly what I was thinking when talking to my parents. Sure they won't be able to serve God on earth but they get a free pass to heaven. As a parent killing your kid would be a guarantee that your child goes to heaven.

The best bible verse i could find that supports children going to heaven is the story in Samuel that talked about David's son

>>613079

I think all are accountable for their sins from inception. How they are judged is a realm for God and not I for I cannot fathom that perception anymore.

Yet, I believe that all humans are judged, and each level of humanity- regardless of retardation or youth, has chosen or not chosen Christ on a fundamental level.

I knew stuff I did when I was a kid was wrong and I did it anyway and felt guilty. Yet, overall, I loved all people and wanted to see them happy. I think if I'd had died as a kid, I'd have been judged on that.

If I'd died as a teen, before my conversion, I would most certainly be in hell.

It's a tough call but I think we can all find Christ without necessarily knowing the name or to the depth of knowledge the ordinary adult possesses. Anyway, that's my non-expert opinion

If they are not baptized, we can hope God will show mercy on them…

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. Genesis 3.

Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called [Cf Col 1:12–14].

Therefore, all humans are damned if unbaptized. (cf. 1 Peter 3:21)

However, baptized children who have not yet reached the age of reason, that is, the age of moral discernment, are not responsible for their sins. This, as a rule, happens at the age of seven, or thereabouts, through the use of reason.

>>613114

Using your logic, it must not be a sin to kill people if you know they’re saved and going to heaven. Which is simply not true. Murder is a sin regardless of what happens to the person after they die. In a similar sense, Christ’s death resulted in our salvation, but the people who participated in his killing commited the most disgusting of sins. So we cannot judge wherher an act is moral or not simply on its consequences. A morally good act can have evil consequences, and a morally evil act can have good consequences.

>>613130

> wherher

*whether

>>613079

Baptised children do have the grace of innocence until they gain enough reason to start making moral decisions in which case they are encouraged to do confessing n and receive the Eucharist.

Unbaptized children may go to heaven if they have a baptism of desire.

>kids are innocent.

Any kid that knows right from wrong has the ability to commit sin. Your parents need to think back to when they were in elementary and primary school. The people I was around (including myself) were not saints. Children are not innocent when they knowingly commit something sinful, which occurs after a certain age.

We shouldn't be so legalistic about things like these. Whether children who die go to heaven or not I don't know, but I do know that God always passes perfect judgment. Wherever these souls might end up, it is perfectly just because God never makes mistakes.

All the Catholics tell me that original sin doesn't mean inherited guilt, and then a thread like this one shows up and half of the replies proclaim inherited guilt.

I really hope we're just being invaded by Calvinists or something.

>>613079 (OP)

This comes from "The Orthodox Study Bible" page 1269 Matthew 2:16-18.

>16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

>17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,

>18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

"These slaughtered children are regarded as saints and martyrs in the Church and are known as the Holy Innocents."

These children, some of whom were old enough to have done at least a few bad things (although probably not sinful things, as I doubt any of them freely chose to rebel against the loving purpose of God), weren't baptised and hadn't professed their belief in Christ, but they are still regarded by the Orthodox Church to be in Heaven.

>>613114

Abortion is sin, because its murder and doesn't indicate that babies go to hell. This """argument""" is purely retarded.

>>613236

Yes they are, that why it is permissible for them to take communion without confession prior until they are 7 (usually, age varies, but this is a traditional age)

>>613836

>weren't baptised and hadn't professed their belief in Christ, but they are still regarded by the Orthodox Church to be in Heaven

Our Lord had not yet instituted baptism. Their martyrdom is not analogous to children born since Christ's death and resurrection.

>>613079

Children do not have free will and cannot sin the way adults do. Free Will comes gradually with age and some people have more free will than others.

>>613269

I understand that but im curious. Whatever that right answer is I trust that God allowed it to happen and that its for the best

>>613079

Hopefully the embedded vid answers your question. Also in all of the research I've done on this topic, there aren't any babies or toddlers in Hell if that answers your question. There is such a thing as an age of accountability, which I don't know the precise answer but I have heard testimonies of high-school aged people in Hell.

>>613758

It's memetic infection sadly. Especially our burger brethren - as a culture they're so dominated by not just Protestant heresies but the Puritan heresies (that the old world Protestants rejected). So like a fish not seeing the water they swim in even the Orthodox pick up the same ideas. Look at how they're talking in absolutes, just Heaven vs Hell. It's actually gotten better IMO - which is a bit depressing really.

The very definition of sin is to willfully and knowingly defy the commands of God. The mind of a child is too underdeveloped to understand the will of God and therefore incapable of committing sin.

So many theories and formulae.

So little acceptance of original sin.

So little deference to the Grace of God.