/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Go Orthodox

And I’m Catholic :^)

>Pauline scripture

Not by works of the law but by faith that working through charity

>Johannine scripture

If you love me, keep my comandments

Protestants still BTFO.

False dichotomy. We are saved by faith, which is an active thing that must give good works. Faith without good works is dead… We are saved by faith working through love… And so on.

Mere intellectual assent that Jesus was a cool guy does not bring you salvation, because we must put on Christ and continue His works.

Works that do not proceed from faith are useless, for if we were saved by works, our salvation wouldn't be a graceful offer but a debt to pay.

The real point of difference from which everything else proceeds is whether God is "monolithically" sovereign, or whether men are "co-workers" with God. Monergism or synergism? If synergism, which is what Orthodox and Catholics believe, the good works we produce (which come from faith) are a sacrifice of good fragrance to God, who gives us more faith. Grace -> faith -> works -> faith -> works…

If monergism, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone. Works proceeding from faith cannot ever be said to save, since we are not in a tango with God so while a saving faith normally produces good works, He will continue to save us even if we do not produce these works as long as we have saving faith. Grace -> faith -> all products of faith (works, charity, repentance, etc), the end.

>>612099

Those only contradict free grace OSAS salvation. Those don’t contradict salvation through faith alone, and the Paul verse is actually used to prove salvation through faith

>>612099

Ephesians 2:8-9

Also he didn't say you need to give charity to be saved, and he even gives the difentiln of what faith means

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

papiss BTFO

>>612104

>are saved by faith, which is an active thing that must give good works. Faith without good works is dead… We are saved by faith working through love… And so on.

bad goy

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, BUT believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>>612097

So go Catholic

>>612123

We need to fix our Church

>>612121

"Faith working through love" is said by Paul, I don't know what your point is…

Besides, he is talking about works of the Torah in Romans.

>>612127

>"Faith working through love

What verse is that?

Also I'm pretty sure he doesn't say there that, that saves and Ephesians 2:9 says not of works

>Besides, he is talking about works of the Torah in Romans.

Where does he say that? He was just saying how Abraham and David were justified without doing works

Also Titus 3:5

>>612130

Galatians 5:6

I'm not arguing further. I thought we could at least agree on this very basic thing, but I guess not.

>>612131

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

So hiw does that have to do with saying you need to be a good boi? He's saying that if you think you need to follow some of the law to be saved you then have to do all of it

>>612091

>Reading the Johannine or Pauline scripture

<C*tholics BTFO! Salvation is by faith alone!

We are saved by grace through faith and works. Our actions can condemn or save us. We can hear the gospel and still ignore it. Without any sort of activity to show our faith then our faith is dead, like the body is dead without a heart that beats.

>>612137

see >>612094

>>612116

>Those only contradict free grace

Because Church teaches that grace is Free

>OSAS salvation.

They do, because OSAS depends on Faith alone.Faith working though charity is not faith alone. "if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing".Moreover, OSAS says that there is no salvific percepts. But as seen charity is salvific and charity is dependent on keeping commandments thus making them salvific.

>Those don’t contradict salvation through faith alone, and the Paul verse is actually used to prove salvation through faith

Paul verse is actually used to prove salvation through faith. But not faith ALONE. But faith that works though Charity.

>>612118

>Ephesians 2:8-9

What about it? Do you seriously think that Catholics are Pelegains? Or that we do not say that without faith anyone can be saved?

This epitsle affirms the necessity of perseverance in obedience, works of love, continual repentance, and maintenance of holiness for salvation/to enter heaven (1:4, 13-15; 2:1-12; 4:17-19, 22-24; 5:5-6; 6:11)

>Also he didn't say you need to give charity to be saved, and he even gives the difentiln of what faith means

He says that salvific faith is faith working though charity. Or as James puts it "NOT faith ALONE"

>11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And this very chapter proves that it's working faith that saves not faith alone.

>>612132

Bear ye one another's burdens; and so you shall fulfill the law of Christ.

>>612130

>Abraham were justified without doing works

By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed. By faith he abode. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered Isaac.

That was working Faith.

>David were justified without doing works

Have you read Psalm that Paul quotes?

I have acknowledged my sin to thee, and my injustice I have not concealed. I said I will confess against myself my injustice to the Lord: and thou hast forgiven the wickedness of my sin.

Faith working in repentance.

>>612147

It's because it says getting saved is a free gift and not of works

So where does that say you have to to be saved?

James 2 us Abraham justified to man. That would otherwise contradict Romans 4

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

>David got saved by being a good boi

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

>without works really means with works

>>612091

Matthew 5:20

>[20] For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Thus, faith alone is not enough. For you who say faith inherently results in good works, it still doesn't mean that works have no role since obviously they do. Because faith alone would imply works have no role, hence the word alone.

>>612164

>It's because it says getting saved is a free gift and not of works

Which does not exclude fact that salvation needs ongoing faith and works later. Faith itself is work John 6:29

>So where does that say you have to to be saved?

Nowhere it says that you have to be saved. You may be if you cooperate with grace, since God desire all to be saved and make salvation available for all but you don't have to be saved. You can loose it anytime you want even.

>James 2 us Abraham justified to man.

That interpretation is clear case of ad hoc and here it's why

>14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

James ask you, the reader if faith alone can be of any profit. And profit here is salvation. His question, “Can faith save him?” sets the tone for the whole discussion. The subject at hand is one’s relationship with God, not one’s reputation among men.

>15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

>16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

Again profit, which is salvation and again the subject is actual, substantive profit–having one’s needs taken care of–rather than a non-substantive profit of a justification before men. Plus it is clear allusion to Matthew 25 which makes it context even more slavific.

>17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

Here the term “dead” is introduced as an antonym for “profit.” James thus says that faith without works is dead, the ultimate form of impotence, the ultimate lack of power with respect to the “profit” he has discussed in the preceding three verses. He says faith without works “is dead,” not “dead before men.”

>18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

>19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

Demons have the faith James is talking about — intellectual assent to the truths of God — but it does not stop them from shuddering at the prospect of God’s wrath. This is what James has in mind. He is not saying that demons shudder at the prospect of not having a good reputation among men or that because they have faith alone they lack justification before men. His focus is on the impotence of the demon’s faith to help them before God.

>20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Here the term “dead” is taken again as the antonym to “profit” as in the preceding verses, meaning that this introductory statement to the arguments which follow shows that the arguments to come are to be interpreted in the light of what has come before, which had definitely not been dealing with “justification before men.”

>>612091

>show me your faith and I'll show you my faith through my works

Read James, my friend. God bless you.

>>612214

>21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

This absolutely cannot be read as some kind of justification before men since Abraham and Isaac were the only ones up there on the mount and their drama was played for God’s benefit. He was the witness, not Abraham’s contemporaries.

>22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

>23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

Who in that Scripture did the reputing? Was it men or God? It was not men, but God. Thus justification before God.

Who called Abraham God’s friend? God himself did: “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend.” Thus justification before God.

>24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

>25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

>26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

gain, James does not say that the body appears dead before men but that the body is dead without the spirit.

The whole “justification before men” argument rests on a linguistic slight of hand trick where one phrase is used to mean something completely different. By speaking of “justification before men” and “justification before God,” the argument creates the illusion that the same kind of justification is being spoken of in both cases, simply the audience is different, being men in one case and God in the other.

However, in actuality, in the phrase “justification before men” the term “justification” is taken to mean “justification before God.” This is why advocates of this interpretation speak of one’s good works showing before others that one is justified before God. The concept of justification before God is stuffed into the concept of justification before men. The concept is actually “justification before God before men.” While it would be possible to imagine the single Greek term “justified” representing “justified before men,” there is no way that the single Greek term “justified” can represent the enormous, complex phrase “justification before God before men.” This is a case of raw lexical word-stuffage, where a single Greek word is being used to represent a long and complex string of words and in which this usage is not paralleled anywhere else in New Testament, classical, koine, or patristic Greek anywhere. In other words, it is a blatant attempt to cobble together a theory to explain the term “justified” over against the obvious sense the term has in the Greek text.

But that you bring James and focus on him while discussion was on Paul is indication that you don't know what you are talking about and instead you just move to "comfort zone" full of memes.

> That would otherwise contradict Romans 4

No, that would be in perfect harmony with Romans 4 but would destroy satanic lie of sola fide.

>2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Again, no one says that one can "start" justification by works. We say in perfect harmony with Paul that justification is by faith working through charity.

>9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

>10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

And what does works of the law have to do with faith working through charity I fail to see since I told you already that we are not pelegians nor judaisers.

>David got saved by being a good boi

David got saved by faith working through charity. Fact that you ignored scripture tells me enough.

>without works really means with works

Grace is free. But there is not grace with faith alone. For grace is Life and faith alone is Dead.

You know this:

1. The Apostles, Paul included, testified of what they were witness to.

2. The Apostles, Paul included, were in harmony with in each other theologically

3. The Bible makes the claim to scripture, therefore it is not contradictory, otherwise it is not scripture.

Therefore, you have to logically go through the scripture and find what they were trying to say. Paul says in Ephesians 2:8: by grace you have been saved by through faith. And thus is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

He reiterates this again in Romans 11:6: but if it is by grace, it is no longer the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

If you read Romans, the general message is "we have all fallen short of the perfect standard for God and are already sentenced. This is why God in the flesh offered Himself up as a ransom so that through Him we might be saved."

We know the following based on the Pauline epistles:

>salvation is entirely by grace

>salvation is given through faith

>salvation is not attained by works

If we read, for example, James, we hear what seems to be the opposite message. He says that faith alone does not save - "faith without works is dead."

So now we know:

>salvation is by grace

>through faith

>but faith without works is dead

Knowing that the two persons were in theological harmony and were preaching the same gospel, then we need to think through this critically. Salvation was given to us by Christ - by grace - at the cross. It is through faith that we receive salvation, not because of faith - otherwise, this would constitute a work, which we know does not earn salvation, because if we could work our ways to salvation, then Christ died in vein.

The logical conclusion, then, is that James, much like Paul does in sections of his epistles, is combating the notion that faith alone brings salvation. Not a true faith wherein you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Christ is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead. Rather, an empty faith - someone who says "I believe in God and His standards," but yet breaks these without hesitation. In that regard, faith without works is dead. If you claim to believe in X but your actions are in contradiction to X, then truly you do not believe in X, and your faith is in vein.

The Christian message is this: while we were yet sinners, Christ died for our sins. By His grace, we are saved, through real, concrete faith, and not as a result of our own deeds.

>>612091

>Not looking at the whole of scripture as one harmony

Even the early Christians did this.

>>612180

>Thus, faith alone is not enough

Romans 4:5 "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness"

>For you who say faith inherently results in good works, it still doesn't mean that works have no role since obviously they do

If faith automatically results in works, then it is impossible for one to believe without being a worker. Therefore, it is impossible for faith to be invalidated by want of works, since no one has faith without also doing works.

Furthermore, neither faith nor works play any part in justification. All our righteousness is filthy rags, and as God looks at us as us we are certainly doomed. The solution is that we are imputed the righteousness of Jesus Christ, God ceases to view us as us, but as Christ. Since Christ was perfect in holiness, we are acquitted from all our sins. This righteousness is apprehended by faith alone, irrespective of any works, and is maintained by faith alone despite any sin whatsoever.

>>612234

>Romans 4:5 "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness"

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.

>If faith automatically results in works, then it is impossible for one to believe without being a worker. Therefore, it is impossible for faith to be invalidated by want of works, since no one has faith without also doing works.

But faith does not automatically results in works for it is written " if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

>Furthermore, neither faith nor works play any part in justification.

On contrary we are justificated by grace through faith working by charity.

> All our righteousness is filthy rags

Isaiah 64

4 From the beginning of the world they have not heard, nor perceived with the ears: the eye hath not seen, O God, besides thee, what things thou hast prepared for them that wait for thee.

5 Thou hast met him that rejoiceth, and doth justice: in thy ways they shall remember thee: behold thou art angry, and we have sinned: in them we have been always, and we shall be saved.

6 And we are all become as one unclean, and all our justices as the rag of a menstruous woman: and we have all fallen as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Those justices arethe works by which we pretended to make ourselves just. This is spoken particularly of the sacrifices, sacraments, and ceremonies of the Jews, after the death of Christ, and the promulgation of the new law. The justice which is under the law is stated uncleanness, when compared with evangelical purity, Philippians 3:8. The good works which are done by grace, and not by man alone, cannot be said to be of this description. They constitute the internal glory of man, and God will one day crown these his gifts. Of ourselves indeed we can do nothing, and the works of the Mosaic law will not avail, as St. Paul inculcates; but those works, point out the saint, which are preformed by charity with faith in Christ. This justice is not imputed only, but real; and shews where true faith exists, according to St. James. Thus the apostles explain each other.

>the solution is that we are imputed the righteousness of Jesus Christ, God ceases to view us as us, but as Christ.

But that makes void statement of Revelation 21:27 that say that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. For in this system of "imputed righteousness alone" all in heaven are unclean and merely against truth and justice counted as clean. Nay, in justification we are imputed righteous because we are made righteous Romans 5:19 for we are new creature 2 Cor 5:17.

>Since Christ was perfect in holiness, we are acquitted from all our sins.

And this perfect Christ washes our sins in water of re-generation

> This righteousness is apprehended by faith alone, irrespective of any works,

Galatians 5:6 In Christ Jesus faith that worketh by charity availeth not faith alone.

>and is maintained by faith alone despite any sin whatsoever.

9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,

10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

>>612104

So if I convert to Protestantism I can just do whatever I want and I'll still be saved as I long as I believe in Jesus? Sign me up then, I was thinking that living the Christian life was a little difficult. I'd rather be able to pirate all the things I want rather than buying them, I'd like to be able to get drunk and take drugs and I can't really be bothered helping others. The only reason I did was because I was under the misapprehension that I had to follow the teachings of Jesus to be saved.

>>613460

>you’re not good enough to get to heaven through your own works

>”THEN I’M JUST GONNA RAPE AND STEAL AND KILL AND”

Rethink your life