/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Independent Fundamental 🅱aptist

>>606826

>>606826

So true bro

>>606826

Countless examples could be cited from Church history, but let me cite perhaps the earliest example, which is found in the Martyrdom of Polycarp, St. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna, ans a disciple of the Apostle John. His martyrdom was written down soon after he was martyred, around the year 160 a.d.. At the end of his martyrdom we not only see an example of the veneration of relics, but also an explanation of the difference between the worship due to God alone, and the veneration we should give to the saints. We are told of how some sought to have the Roman magistrate keep the Christians from retrieving the body of the Holy Martyr

"'lest,' so it was said, 'they should abandon the crucified one and begin to worship this man'—this being done at the instigation and urgent entreaty of the Jews, who also watched when we were about to take it from the fire, not knowing that it will be impossible for us either to forsake at any time the Christ who suffered for the salvation of the whole world of those that are saved—suffered though faultless for sinners—nor to worship any other. For Him, being the Son of God, we adore, but the martyrs as disciples and imitators of the Lord we cherish as they deserve for their matchless affection towards their own King and Teacher…. The centurion therefore, seeing the opposition raised on the part of the Jews, set him in the midst and burnt him after their custom. And so we afterwards took up his bones which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place; where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy, and to celebrate the birth-day [i.e. the anniversary] of his martyrdom for the commemoration of those that have already fought in the contest, and for the training and preparation of those that shall do so hereafter" (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 17:2-3; 18:1-3).

Sounds "baptist" to you?

>>606838

Are you an idiot? Did the 🅱️ emoji not tip you off to the fact that he was memeing?

>”durr hburr im gonna sperg out and start screaming at someone for memeing”

Shut up

All liturgy in every church is more or less structured in a similar way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Liturgy#Structure

If you look closely at any Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, or Anglican liturgy the structure is very similar. This is not an accident.

>>606847

Oh, also, before Trent in the west, some variation was common in liturgy structure (order, omit a thing or two) but the overall two part structure was universal. The Coptic Church still has three possible liturgies. You could take a look at these - they are likely very old. http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/index.html

>>606853

>>606847

any books that deal with this era? i'd just like to know what the general culture was like

>>606838

Bro just admit it Jesus was a baptist give up

>>606838

Let me give an earlier example

>Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Does that sound “Catholic” to you?

>>606878

>>606876

I wasn't really asking about Baptist vs Apostolic, more about the history of the church from Nicea to the schism.

I'll take books about proto-IFB if you have some to suggest and aren't memeing.

>>606905

I have a book bro it’s called the BIBLE. *stephen Anderson dabs*

>>606906

Please don't shit up my thread.

>>606910

They hated him because he told them the truth…

>>606878

by that logic the Jews of biblical time are exactly the same as the Jews of today

>>606846

bro I hope you’re not actually mad. that would just be too funny

>>606838

Everyone knows John the Apostolic went astray after he made friends with Phillip the Presbyterian tbh

>>606906

have to give you a (you) for that

There was a lot more variation in the liturgical practices of Europe. Instead of there being just about only one Latin Rite, there were several, like the Celtic rites, Gallican rites, and several others now defunct or lost. The West probably looked just as varied as the East does today.

>>606846

>Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I am only joking!”

>>606798

Something like this I'd imagine.

>>615846

Nah. It would've been more like this for the Latins.

>>615843

Not quite true. It's just that we in the West know more about our variation of liturgical practices than we do about the variation of them in the East.

And, as mentioned above, the West took steps to standardize their practices before the East did.

The current somewhat monolithic appearance of the East is primarily due to the constriction under Ottoman mudslime rule.

For example, the East historically had:

>Liturgy of Saint James aka the Jacobite Liturgy - based on Jerusalem tradition, used in Antioch and Syria, sometimes also by the Maronites. It's assumed to be oldest and from the 4th century (300s, disputed); earliest manuscript is from 9th century (800s).

>Liturgy of St. Mark - Alexandria in Egypt - oldest copy is from the 4th century (300s)

>Liturgy of Saint Basil is attributed to Saint Basil (4th century, late 300s maybe 370s) and is probably a shortened version of Saint James'

>Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts was first documented by St. Gregory the Dialogist (AD 540-604) and possibly predates him.

>Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom is attributed to him and dates to the very late 4th century, not as old as Saint Basil

>>615893

we’ve actually had all of those services in our parish and more. pretty awesome tbh

>>616029

That IS awesome and a blessing.

We've been blessed to see Liturgy of St Basil once, and have experienced the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts over Lent many times, and have seen the Bishop serving a few times, which is pretty rare for the US.

Today we attend a Western Rite that regularly serves the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow. It derives from the Anglican 1892 and 1928 services in the Book of Common Prayer, restored to full Orthodoxy in the 70s. It's based on the Sarum Use of the Roman Rite, a mix of Gallican, Roman, Celtic, and British customs. Standardized in the 13th century (1200s), it was the source for the first Book of Common Prayer in 1549 and was used by Recusant Catholics. Ultimately it derives from the ancient use of the Cathedral of Salisbury prior to the Great Schism.

>>616048

very cool anon, I’ll have to research more about it

>>615893

>The current somewhat monolithic appearance of the East is primarily due to the constriction under Ottoman mudslime rule.

Eh, not really.

That's just ecumenical patriarchate influencing everyone loyal to them, and it happened way before islam ruled(the imperial chalcedonians took up the byz rite, while the old-school orientals kept the…well, the rites you can see today in their churches).

Add to that Nikon trying to align themselves(forcefully) with the greeks, intentional and unintentional pruning and standardization, and that's why everyone looks the same in the east, as in the west.

As a sidenote, i'm super sure they also had some cross-influence.

There's a plausible theory that the reason transilvanian orthodoxy looks different than wallachian and moldovan orthodoxy is due to it being built on top of a hispano-galic rite.

And even today, finnish lutherans and romanian roman-catholics sing "Christ has risen" like there's no tomorrow at Easter.