/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>599540

I know. I thought the 9gag filename would tip you off, but I was just trying to add to OPs shitpost of a thread.

>>599544

suffering.

When you realize that no one will help you, except God.

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

Agnostic here, In my opinion, the existence of a god, or lack thereof, makes absolutely no difference on what seems to me as the final existential question, that being "why is there something instead of nothing". I can see why someone, when confronted with that question, would draw the conclusion that God isn't real.

>>599573

>"why is there something instead of nothing".

>I can see why someone, when confronted with that question, would draw the conclusion that God isn't real.

how?

>>599597

Because god would fall under this question.

If you accept any causal relationship other than the world exists because god exists and he created it, that doesn't answer anything.

If you accept that god exists and he created the world, the question becomes "then why does god exist when he could just as well not, and why does he exist as he does"

I myself am not satisfied with simply rejecting the existence of a deity, but to a lot of people, the existence of god is, through occam's razor, not worth considering.

Because, more often than not, they have a poor experience with a single Christian or group of Christians, and are soured on the faith because of human hypocrisy. The arbitrary reasoning about God's supposed non-existence is usually a way of rationalizing their distaste.

>>599537

Most that I knew including myself for a time did it due to a combination of 'fuck you mom and dad', 'muh crusades/pedos/witch burning/SCIENCES/pagan golden age' and the malaise and nihilism that accompanied modernity after we abandoned God.

>>599618

i see.

>why does god exist when he could just as well not

what're your thoughts on this word game as an agnostic?

>Premise 1: It is possible that God exists.

>Premise 2: If it is possible that God exists, then God exists in some possible worlds.

>Premise 3: If God exists in some possible worlds, then God exists in all possible worlds.

>Premise 4: If God exists in all possible worlds, then God exists in the actual world.

>Premise 5: If God exists in the actual world, God exists.

>>599637

Premise 1 is sound,

Assuming one believes that all possible worlds exist, 2 is also sound.

As for 3, I think that a god being omnipotent and omniscient in a certain world doesn't implicate that he can cross over to other worlds, or be aware that other worlds exist. I would also argue that if there was something connecting this set of infinite worlds, in this case God, then there's multiple possible sets of infinite worlds, and that could go on infinitely, but even if it is that way, why is it that way and not any other way?

>>599674

>As for 3, I think that a god being omnipotent and omniscient in a certain world doesn't implicate that he can cross over to other worlds

This is an oxymoron

Either God is truly Omnipotent and Omnipresent, or otherwise, He actually is doesnt have those attributes.

>>599683

Why not? What is it about the ability to be anywhere within a world that implicates that he can cross to other worlds, and the ability to do anything in the world he is part of allow him to affect other worlds if they have no connection, and if they do have a connection, how are they not one world?

>>599674

>I think that a god being omnipotent and omniscient in a certain world doesn't implicate that he can cross over to other world

it depends on how we're defining God.

maybe having omnipotence and omniscence alone wouldn't allow for this entity to exist in all possible worlds,

but another attribute of God (Maximally Great Being) is necessity.

there are 3 ways entities are said to exist in modal logic:

>Impossible - An entity that exists in no possible worlds. (square circle, married bachelor.)

>Contingent - An entity that exists in some possible worlds. (like a unicorn.)

>Necessary - An entity that exists in all possible worlds. (numbers, absolute truths, shape definitions)

A necessary entity cannot be false or fail to exist in any possible world.

A maximally great being is a being that possesses all qualities that are better to have, (such as necessity) defined as "great making properties".

Great making properties:

>Love (absolute benevolence)

>Wisdom (Omniscience)

>Power (Omnipotence)

so if this is what we're looking at:

>Premise 1: It is possible that God (maximally great being) exists.

>Premise 2: If it is possible that God (mgb) exists, then God (mgb) exists in some possible worlds.

>Premise 3: If God (MGB) exists in some possible worlds, then God (MGB) exists in all possible worlds.

>Premise 4: If God (MGB) exists in all possible worlds, then God (MGB) exists in the actual world.

>Premise 5: If God (MGB) exists in the actual world, then God (MGB) exists.

the only assailable premise would be the first one, in modal logic, the other premises must be true.

this is just a game though, it's not going to convince you of anything.

from here, in order to deny the conclusion (God exists.) you will be forced to say some silly things.

>>599692

Well, the problem here is that since necessities are the same across all possible worlds, it doesn't matter that there are multiple worlds. God simply may or may not exist.

>>599551

>Mormons

What does that have to do with Christianity though?

>>599712

>God simply may or may not exist.

if it is possible that He does, then He does (that's the argument.)

if it is not possible, then He does not.

that's why i was curious about an agnostic's take on it.

if the argument is sound, it forces you off the fence.

<how the hell would i know if it's impossible or possible though?

is there any evidence or reasoning you could provide to show that it is impossible?

this is another fun part of the game, it shifts the burden of proof to the skeptic, since they would have to claim and provide reasoning for why it would be impossible in order to attack the argument's only weakness, the first premise

if not, then there's no reason to think it's not possible, and good reason to believe God exists.

also: the possible worlds thing doesn't necessarily mean there are parallel dimensions or whatever, they're usually more like hypotheticals

some of them think it makes them look cool and "enlightened" or somehow independent, they use their resentment of God to try to fill the hole in their lives but it only makes them more frustrated

>>599539

yes or no question damnit

>>599595

UNDERRATED

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I think anon that both theists and atheists profess a bit of ignorance in their message to the world.

Christianity has a lot of content to it, for sure, and all of the power-civilizations of Earth seem to profess Christendom….especially if they are deeply concerned with power over others.

I think there is strong evidence that God is trolling humanity, even given the reality of Christendom.

I.e….

>The Bible says don't be arrogant.

>Christianity forces people to be arrogant.

>Where do we go from here?

>Power structures that perpetuate the mind games upon otherwise innocent and unknowing people.

>>599537

Because they come up with basic questions about religion and then decide the question have no answer.