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File: 82ac771b6c64656⋯.jpg (48.52 KB, 500x738, 250:369, peterson holy.jpg)

8024ea No.598626

heh

thoughts on the filioque?

ef9a89 No.598641

it obviously proceeds from the Father and the Son


0945d2 No.598651

File: d0ed000e8be3740⋯.jpg (306.76 KB, 2048x1365, 2048:1365, Ortho no senpai.jpg)

We're right


b6da48 No.598654


8024ea No.598658

>>598654

good observation

kek


5ccc35 No.598665

>>598626

The Holy Spirit is referred to as the "Spirit of Christ" multiple times throughout the New Testament.


8024ea No.598672

>>598665

neat, cause the Son proceeds from the Father.


9ca82d No.598681

>>598672

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son because the Father has given the Son all things. This doesn't mean there are two spirations; there is a single spiration.

The procession of the Holy Spirit is therefore "sourced" in the Father alone, but because the Father has given the Son all things, the Holy Spirit goes through the Son. It's something the Son has received from the Father.


8024ea No.598684

>>598681

>the father has given the son all things

>putting the holy spirit in the category of "things" as if its a created thing that can be owned

This is just as absurd as saying the Father proceeds from the Son because the father gave the son "all things" and assuming the Father belongs to the category of "things"

please stop.


73aab4 No.598687

>>598684

How could the Father give the Son procession of himself when the Father proceeds from no one? You're a heretic for even suggesting the Father proceeds.

(And on a further note, the Father has given the Son all things BUT Fatherhood.)


ce923a No.598689

>>598687

You are a true incarnation of meme in OP


9378b7 No.598692

>>598626

Now make one where she says:

So you're saying from the Father alone?


9378b7 No.598693

>>598626

Jesus said I will send the Holy Spirit to the apostles, and Jesus doesn't lie. Filioque procedit


ef9a89 No.598694

>>598693

I mean, He breathed it. It literally went through the Son.


8024ea No.598704

>>598687

>(And on a further note, the Father has given the Son all things BUT Fatherhood.)

and he has not given him Holy Spirithood either.

God and his persons don't belong to the category of "things given".

God is.

You are the one implying the Holy Spirit is a mere "thing" that the Son can own.


bc1e75 No.598705

>>598651

You wish! I’m Catholic and I respect your Church, but I don’t care at all what you guys do. And most of us have my same opinion of you; the few who don’t usually convert and start insulting us Catholics (met a few of these converts, one was once a friend of mine).

To each is own; the Filioque makes sense to me as a dialogue between the Father and the Son, in which both interact ( this is but a figure of speaking, let me be clear before someone strawmans it).


0266f4 No.598710

The term "ekporeusthai" is understood by the Greek Fathers, and notably the Cappadocian Fathers (whose theology shaped the Second Ecumenical Council), to refer to the Spirit proceeding from the Father. "Proienai" is vaguely understood by them, but more strictly understood by Maximus the Confessor and Cyril of Alexandria, to refer to the Spirit's flowing forth, or progression, from the Father and the Son.

"Procedere" probably is a better translation of "proienai" than of "ekporeusthai," but the Latin defenders of the filioque have historically almost always included "ekporeusthai" and "proienai" both under "procedere," especially at the Council of Florence.

Now, with that in mind…

Christ Himself taught procession from the Father alone in John 15:26. He would have said "the Holy Spirit proceeding from us" otherwise.

Dionysius and Athanasius both call the Father "the one source of the pre-essential godhead . . . [and] the only source of the Divinity."

Gregory Nazianzus says that "everything the Father has belongs to the Son with the exception of causality."

The Third Ecumenical Council had approved portions of the Nestorian creed presented by the priest Charisius, including the statement that "the Holy Spirit is not the Son, neither does he take his existence through the Son."

Theodoret accused Cyril of Alexandria of stating that "the Spirit receives his existence from the Son or through the Son," but Cyril denied this, agreeing with Theodoret that this is a heretical thought.

The Latins at Florence used corrupted sources to prove that the Son is cause of the Holy Spirit. The Latin excerpts of Basil's Adversus Eunomium were co-mingled with parts of Eunomius's own work, and the Latins cited explicitly Macedonian parts of the text in defense of the filioque (for instance, that the Spirit is "third in order and dignity").

The Fathers of the Second Ecumenical Council were led by the Holy Spirit to only state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, with nothing further added, and the Third Ecumenical Council forbade any additions to the Creed, which was understood by the later Greeks to mean any sort of addition, and to refer to the creed of Nicene-Constantinople - calling it the Nicene Creed to honor the Fathers of the first council, just as later ecumenical councils would.

Cyril of Alexandria, who presided over at Ephesus, said: "We prohibit any changes whatever in the Creed of Faith drawn up by the holy Nicene Fathers. We do not allow ourselves or any one else to change or ormit one word or syllabe in that Creed."

The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council said that the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed "is sufficient for the full knowledge of the truth, for it contains in itself the full doctrine of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Knowing all this, one can only say that the Holy Spirit proceeds (hypostatic origin) from the Father alone, and the Latin "proceeds from the Father and the Son" is not equivalent to the Greek "proceeds from the Father through the Son" but rather to the Greek "progresses/flows forth from the Father and the Son," denoting not hypostatic origin but the eternal sending forth of the Spirit by the common will of the Father and the Son.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father to rest upon the Son, rather than proceeding from the Father and the Son. Other expressions are that the Spirit is manifested through the Son, or shines forth from the Son, and one may say well that the Holy Spirit finds existence from the Father (proceeds from the Father) and continues existence through the Son by Whom He is sent (proceeds through the Son, or flows forth from the Son). To say that the Spirit finds existence from the Son is erroneous. To say the Holy Spirit proceeds (ekporeusthai) from the Father and the Son is to say that, at the Theophany, the Father did not simply anoint the Son - the Son anointed Himself as well, or worse, anointed the Father back.

But anyway. Let's recognize that procedere = proienai, that the creed wasn't well translated into Latin, that Latin sucks overall, and move on.


c2bd2f No.598725

>>598626

Oh, for crying out loud.

Both Florence and the North American Commision agree it's just semantics, and the greeks are right.

Stop inflaming spirits again.


258acc No.598731

>>598710

I want to believe these protestant-tier mental gymnastics and linguistic LARPing are copypasta. I really do.


8024ea No.598732

File: dc851adefe08809⋯.jpg (44.56 KB, 400x225, 16:9, Filioque_Boulbon_Altarpiec….jpg)

>>598725

>its not a b-big deal, its probably, maybe right…d-don't be argumentative…

nice heresy, modernism and weak attitude

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/10/why-is-filioque-heresy.html


258acc No.598733

>>598732

I don't think understand that you, or any other schismatics, have as much authority to declare parts of the Creed as heresy as Arius or Muhammed


8024ea No.598736

>>598733

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/epistle-to-pope-francis.pdf

A Letter to Pope Francis Concerning His Past, the Abysmal State of Papism, and a Plea to Return to Holy Orthodoxy

>We unceasingly pray that our Lord Jesus Christ gather together the deluded “Pope” and his followers, through repentance and the renunciation of your delusion and heresy, into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, Orthodox Church and to assume as an Orthodox Pope, according to seniority of honor of the Pentarchy and in agreement with the Divine and Holy Canons, the Chairmanship of honor of the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches as “primus inter pares.”


609729 No.598739

The Holy Spirit proceeds from neither. It is an aspect of god.


0adfd3 No.598747

>>598739

>It is

>god

>aspect

*He is

*God

*fully


8024ea No.598748

>>598747

this is right^

>>598739

never trust this flag^


0266f4 No.598749

>>598731

So what exactly are your arguments, besides insulting me (and insulting the fathers at Florence who were deeply concerned by "protestant-tier mental gymnastics and linguistcs" on both sides)?

>>598732

Jay's Analysis is a hack, please don't post more of his trash. Thank you.

>>598736

Do you belong to the Church of Greece?

>>598739

This is the heresy of Modalism.


5ccc35 No.598751

The eastern orthodogs are simple minded:

http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/filioque.html


0266f4 No.598753

>>598751

This says about the same thing I say above, but watch out, you're in the Protestant LARPer box now.


8024ea No.598754

>>598749

>Jay's Analysis is a hack, please don't post more of his trash. Thank you.

not an argument, just ad hominem, you have nothing.


0266f4 No.598757

>>598754

Oh, lol. I thought the link was to Jay's Analysis, sorry.


8024ea No.598758

>>598757

who the hell is Jay?

Jay Dyer?


0266f4 No.598760

>>598758

Yes. He wrote an awful article of so-called theology called "Filioquism Is Arian Subordinationism Applied to the Holy Spirit" and I saw some Orthodox person posting it several times on here a few weeks ago.


ce923a No.598761

>>598751

>orthodogs

and then they will whine and weep when they are called cucktholics


8024ea No.598766

>>598760

Oh.

I like a lot of Jay's stuff, but I haven't read that article.

Filioque is still a heresy. John Romanides is a legit historian/theologian/orthodox authority imo.


0ae3a2 No.598767

>>598626

the definition of Son is someone who comes from the Father and who is like him. It was that way since "the beginning" (the eternity).

On the other hand Jesus said that the Father will send the Spirit of Truth. I fail to see any contradiction but maybe is because my autism is not strong enough. Because both of them are God and one of the characteristics of God is eternal existence (outside time and space). The Son and the Spirit come from the Father but all of them are God.


6f07c8 No.598768

>>598626

It's very easy. This is not a matter of the laity. Obviously the Filioque is obligatory, but that doesn't change that you discussing it is futile and a waste of time. Of you're ortho, fine - don't object about it as it doesn't concern you anyway. If you're Catholic, fine as well - it is not your task to convince people on a theological level, we have an incredible number of theologians and Church law people caring about this exact thing in relation to the orthos.

And I'd like to ask everyone to stop the mindless banter, baits and insults all the time. I know you love to do that, because you're internet people. but matter of fact is Matthew 12:36

>36 I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter;

This is not the first time this has been brought up and it will not be the last time, but nontheless can we take this opportunity to humble ourselves with regards to each other, take back your personal feelings and your infinite hubris and finally shut the f' up.


a99601 No.598773

File: 9cd5482999f2888⋯.jpg (470.12 KB, 2048x1364, 512:341, turk 2.jpg)

File: f50c1cd8e38c98a⋯.png (480.83 KB, 620x465, 4:3, turk.png)

File: 7420536e3b3b283⋯.jpg (127.38 KB, 680x798, 340:399, turk2.jpg)

>The expression "from the Father through the Son" is accepted by many Eastern Orthodox. This, in fact, led to a reunion of the Eastern Orthodox with the Catholic Church in 1439 at the Council of Florence: "The Greek prelates believed that every saint, precisely as a saint, was inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore could not err in faith. If they expressed themselves differently, their meanings must substantially agree. . . . Once the Greeks accepted that the Latin Fathers had really written Filioque (they could not understand Latin), the issue was settled (May 29). The Greek Fathers necessarily meant the same; the faiths of the two churches were identical; union was not only possible but obligatory (June 3); and on June 8 the Latin cedula [statements of belief] on the procession [of the Spirit] was accepted by the Greek synod" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 5:972–3).

>Unfortunately, the union did not last. In the 1450s (just decades before the Protestant Reformation), the Eastern Orthodox left the Church again under pressure from the Muslims, who had just conquered them and who insisted they renounce their union with the Western Church (lest Western Christians come to their aid militarily).

Post last edited at

bc1e75 No.598775

>>598773

New Catholic Encyclopaedia

Both sides of course are biased, in such a case…


ce923a No.598776

>>598773

>Post last edited

huh, great mod, especially with posting trash like those pics


ffb811 No.598778

>>598775

I don't like the pictures for a discussion, but that's what is fact. It's straight up history - and one can't just deny it, because it comes from the Catholic Encyclopaedia. There is evidence for it. The problem here is more the banter than anything, and the fact that orthos love to rewrite history to fit their agenda, as sad as that is.


0adfd3 No.598781

>>598773

>In the 1450s (just decades before the Protestant Reformation)

Glory to God for protecting the True Faith not only against the latin heresy but also against the protestant one.

(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST)

ef6cbf No.598793

File: d0ecb6544721ec2⋯.png (136.38 KB, 459x499, 459:499, Iamstartingtofeeltierdofyo….png)

>>598626

Article 2. Whether the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son?

Objection 1. It would seem that the Holy Ghost does not proceed from the Son. For as Dionysius says (Div. Nom. i): "We must not dare to say anything concerning the substantial Divinity except what has been divinely expressed to us by the sacred oracles." But in the Sacred Scripture we are not told that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son; but only that He proceeds from the Father, as appears from John 15:26: "The Spirit of truth, Who proceeds from the Father." Therefore the Holy Ghost does not proceed from the Son.

Objection 2. Further, in the creed of the council of Constantinople (Can. vii) we read: "We believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Life-giver, who proceeds from the Father; with the Father and the Son to be adored and glorified." Therefore it should not be added in our Creed that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son; and those who added such a thing appear to be worthy of anathema.

Objection 3. Further, Damascene says (De Fide Orth. i): "We say that the Holy Ghost is from the Father, and we name Him the spirit of the Father; but we do not say that the Holy Ghost is from the Son, yet we name Him the Spirit of the Son." Therefore the Holy Ghost does not proceed from the Son.

Objection 4. Further, nothing proceeds from that wherein it rests. But the Holy Ghost rests in the Son; for it is said in the legend of St. Andrew: "Peace be to you and to all who believe in the one God the Father, and in His only Son our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the one Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father, and abiding in the Son." Therefore the Holy Ghost does not proceed from the Son.

Objection 5. Further, the Son proceeds as the Word. But our breath [spiritus] does not seem to proceed in ourselves from our word. Therefore the Holy Ghost does not proceed from the Son.

Objection 6. Further, the Holy Ghost proceeds perfectly from the Father. Therefore it is superfluous to say that He proceeds from the Son.

Objection 7. Further "the actual and the possible do not differ in things perpetual" (Phys. iii, text 32), and much less so in God. But it is possible for the Holy Ghost to be distinguished from the Son, even if He did not proceed from Him. For Anselm says (De Process. Spir. Sancti, ii): "The Son and the Holy Ghost have their Being from the Father; but each in a different way; one by Birth, the other by Procession, so that they are thus distinct from one another." And further on he says: "For even if for no other reason were the Son and the Holy Ghost distinct, this alone would suffice." Therefore the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Son, without proceeding from Him.


ef6cbf No.598795

File: 12ba98efdc80328⋯.gif (99.37 KB, 479x356, 479:356, Capturecouncil of florence.GIF)

>>598793

On the contrary, Athanasius says: "The Holy Ghost is from the Father and the Son; not made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding."

I answer that, It must be said that the Holy Ghost is from the Son. For if He were not from Him, He could in no wise be personally distinguished from Him; as appears from what has been said above (I:28:3; I:30:2). For it cannot be said that the divine Persons are distinguished from each other in any absolute sense; for it would follow that there would not be one essence of the three persons: since everything that is spoken of God in an absolute sense, belongs to the unity of essence. Therefore it must be said that the divine persons are distinguished from each other only by the relations. Now the relations cannot distinguish the persons except forasmuch as they are opposite relations; which appears from the fact that the Father has two relations, by one of which He is related to the Son, and by the other to the Holy Ghost; but these are not opposite relations, and therefore they do not make two persons, but belong only to the one person of the Father. If therefore in the Son and the Holy Ghost there were two relations only, whereby each of them were related to the Father, these relations would not be opposite to each other, as neither would be the two relations whereby the Father is related to them. Hence, as the person of the Father is one, it would follow that the person of the Son and of the Holy Ghost would be one, having two relations opposed to the two relations of the Father. But this is heretical since it destroys the Faith in the Trinity. Therefore the Son and the Holy Ghost must be related to each other by opposite relations. Now there cannot be in God any relations opposed to each other, except relations of origin, as proved above (I:28:44). And opposite relations of origin are to be understood as of a "principle," and of what is "from the principle." Therefore we must conclude that it is necessary to say that either the Son is from the Holy Ghost; which no one says; or that the Holy Ghost is from the Son, as we confess.

Furthermore, the order of the procession of each one agrees with this conclusion. For it was said above (I:27:4; I:28:4), that the Son proceeds by the way of the intellect as Word, and the Holy Ghost by way of the will as Love. Now love must proceed from a word. For we do not love anything unless we apprehend it by a mental conception. Hence also in this way it is manifest that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son.

We derive a knowledge of the same truth from the very order of nature itself. For we nowhere find that several things proceed from one without order except in those which differ only by their matter; as for instance one smith produces many knives distinct from each other materially, with no order to each other; whereas in things in which there is not only a material distinction we always find that some order exists in the multitude produced. Hence also in the order of creatures produced, the beauty of the divine wisdom is displayed. So if from the one Person of the Father, two persons proceed, the Son and the Holy Ghost, there must be some order between them. Nor can any other be assigned except the order of their nature, whereby one is from the other. Therefore it cannot be said that the Son and the Holy Ghost proceed from the Father in such a way as that neither of them proceeds from the other, unless we admit in them a material distinction; which is impossible.

Hence also the Greeks themselves recognize that the procession of the Holy Ghost has some order to the Son. For they grant that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit "of the Son"; and that He is from the Father "through the Son." Some of them are said also to concede that "He is from the Son"; or that "He flows from the Son," but not that He proceeds; which seems to come from ignorance or obstinacy. For a just consideration of the truth will convince anyone that the word procession is the one most commonly applied to all that denotes origin of any kind. For we use the term to describe any kind of origin; as when we say that a line proceeds from a point, a ray from the sun, a stream from a source, and likewise in everything else. Hence, granted that the Holy Ghost originates in any way from the Son, we can conclude that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son.


ef6cbf No.598796

File: 80f717db9a244d8⋯.png (184.65 KB, 583x1581, 583:1581, filioqueballs.PNG)

>>598795

Reply to Objection 1. We ought not to say about God anything which is not found in Holy Scripture either explicitly or implicitly. But although we do not find it verbally expressed in Holy Scripture that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son, still we do find it in the sense of Scripture, especially where the Son says, speaking of the Holy Ghost, "He will glorify Me, because He shall receive of Mine" (John 16:14). It is also a rule of Holy Scripture that whatever is said of the Father, applies to the Son, although there be added an exclusive term; except only as regards what belongs to the opposite relations, whereby the Father and the Son are distinguished from each other. For when the Lord says, "No one knoweth the Son, but the Father," the idea of the Son knowing Himself is not excluded. So therefore when we say that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father, even though it be added that He proceeds from the Father alone, the Son would not thereby be at all excluded; because as regards being the principle of the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son are not opposed to each other, but only as regards the fact that one is the Father, and the other is the Son.

Reply to Objection 2. In every council of the Church a symbol of faith has been drawn up to meet some prevalent error condemned in the council at that time. Hence subsequent councils are not to be described as making a new symbol of faith; but what was implicitly contained in the first symbol was explained by some addition directed against rising heresies. Hence in the decision of the council of Chalcedon it is declared that those who were congregated together in the council of Constantinople, handed down the doctrine about the Holy Ghost, not implying that there was anything wanting in the doctrine of their predecessors who had gathered together at Nicaea, but explaining what those fathers had understood of the matter. Therefore, because at the time of the ancient councils the error of those who said that the Holy Ghost did not proceed from the Son had not arisen, it was not necessary to make any explicit declaration on that point; whereas, later on, when certain errors rose up, another council [Council of Rome, under Pope Damasus] assembled in the west, the matter was explicitly defined by the authority of the Roman Pontiff, by whose authority also the ancient councils were summoned and confirmed. Nevertheless the truth was contained implicitly in the belief that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father.

Reply to Objection 3. The Nestorians were the first to introduce the error that the Holy Ghost did not proceed from the Son, as appears in a Nestorian creed condemned in the council of Ephesus. This error was embraced by Theodoric the Nestorian, and several others after him, among whom was also Damascene. Hence, in that point his opinion is not to be held. Although, too, it has been asserted by some that while Damascene did not confess that the Holy Ghost was from the Son, neither do those words of his express a denial thereof.

Reply to Objection 4. When the Holy Ghost is said to rest or abide in the Son, it does not mean that He does not proceed from Him; for the Son also is said to abide in the Father, although He proceeds from the Father. Also the Holy Ghost is said to rest in the Son as the love of the lover abides in the beloved; or in reference to the human nature of Christ, by reason of what is written: "On whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, He it is who baptizes" (John 1:33).

Reply to Objection 5. The Word in God is not taken after the similitude of the vocal word, whence the breath [spiritus] does not proceed; for it would then be only metaphorical; but after the similitude of the mental word, whence proceeds love.

Reply to Objection 6. For the reason that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father perfectly, not only is it not superfluous to say He proceeds from the Son, but rather it is absolutely necessary. Forasmuch as one power belongs to the Father and the Son; and because whatever is from the Father, must be from the Son unless it be opposed to the property of filiation; for the Son is not from Himself, although He is from the Father.

Reply to Objection 7. The Holy Ghost is distinguished from the Son, inasmuch as the origin of one is distinguished from the origin of the other; but the difference itself of origin comes from the fact that the Son is only from the Father, whereas the Holy Ghost is from the Father and the Son; for otherwise the processions would not be distinguished from each other, as explained above, and in I:27.


39d187 No.598803

The Trinity is a mystery that cannot be comprehended by human reason, but only though faith.

All this filoque/not filoque stuff is going to lead to some ancient heresy sooner or later. On top of that, being right about the nature of God won't get you into heaven, but doing His will will.


7e9618 No.598804

File: 8aa2d806d5056d3⋯.png (Spoiler Image, 305.42 KB, 640x480, 4:3, 1458696874227-0.png)

>>598803

Comprehend THIS


6cc887 No.598868

>>598773

Please learn some history besides the (((Catholic Encyclopdia))).

The delegates requested that synods be held back home to finalize the union, and indeed, Latin delegates returned with the Greeks to oversee this.

But only Constantinople would hold such a synod, in 1453, five months before the fall of the city. Gennadius Scholarius became Ecumenical Patriarch after the city's fall and repudiated the union, and not because of "pressure from the Muslims" but because 1) he was already the leader of the anti-unionists and 2) he blamed the acceptance of the union for the fall of the city.

So of the 4 ancient Eastern patriarchates, only 1 actually went through with the union, and it only lasted five months.

>>598778

>the fact that orthos love to rewrite history to fit their agenda

Coming from somebody who uses the Catholic Encyclopedia as a reliable source for history between Eastern and Western churches. Charming.

Daily reminder that it is a century-old source and that much scholarship was done since then that debunks its nonsense (the most aggravating case being probably the Photian Schism).

>>598796

I gave the Orthodox position here: >>598710

Why are you acting as if you were unable to word your church's position yourself? Do you not understand it?


ef6cbf No.598891

>>598868

>I gave the Orthodox position here: >>598710

>Lingustic

Adressed. Also, consider that theological terms not always are strictly biblical. See usage of presbyter and bishop, and dulia and latria.

>John 15:26

Adressed.

>Gregory Nazianzus

Pro-filioque

>Third Ecumenical Council

Adressed

>Theodoret

<the Spirit receives his existence from the Son= through the Son

This is just bad theology considering that Orthodoxies use second expression

>Florence

Second Council of Lyon

>Second Council

Addressed

>Cyril

There is no mention of ANY procession of Spirit in NICENE creed.

>Fourth Council

Addressed

Knowing all this, one can only say that the Holy Spirit proceeds (hypostatic origin) from the Father and the Son, and the Latin "proceeds from the Father and the Son" is equivalent to the Greek "proceeds from the Father through the Son" denoting hypostatic origin and the eternal sending forth of the Spirit by the common will of the Father and the Son which itself is proccesion of Holy Spirt by way of the will as Love

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son to rest upon the Son, as Son who proceding from Father rest in him. Other expressions are that the Spirit is manifested through the Son, or shines forth from the Son, and one may say well that the Holy Spirit finds existence from the Father (proceeds from the Father) and continues existence through the Son by Whom He is sent (proceeds through the Son, or flows forth from the Son) but they are all meaniglles unleess one say that Holy Spirt proccedes from the Father and theSon. To say that the Spirit finds existence from the Son alone is erroneous. To say the Holy Spirit proceeds (ekporeusthai) from the Father and the Son is to say that is scriptualy (but not in Greek thological languge) correct. To say otherwise is to say that at Theophny Father did not simply anoint the Son - the Son was anointed by himself for there is no opposing relation between Son and the Spirt.

But anyway. Let's recognize that procedere = proienai as well as ekporeusthai, that the creed was well translated into Latin, that Latin is supperoir to Greek overall, and move on.

>Why are you acting as if you were unable to word your church's position yourself? Do you not understand it?

Am I protestant who foolishly throws away what Doctor of the Church handed to me? Why would I do it for your comfort?


57f4f0 No.598911

>>598654

πνευμα is Neuter


b6da48 No.599031

>>598911

Well this is English boi, and in English the third person neuter singular pronoun has a connotation of impersonality


106b31 No.599523

>>598705

Not who you replied to but I'm orthodox and hence don't believe in the filioque. But I do agree that to each his own, if you believe in the Filioque or not is not essential and I think we will find out at the end of days.

What I don't like is how people on both sides have this dogmatic attitude to the whole affair, I do think filioque could be in the creed, but in brackets and completely optional.




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