/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>598110

>To the catholodox, what do you think about the protestant work ethic?

I dont like its basis in calvinism, that sounds like a prosperity Gospel for me. But being industrious is appreciated.

>>598111

Yes, being industrious is a sign of both spiritual wellbeing, and general wellbeing.

I'd wager that it was born out of the autistic german work ethic

>how it shaped America to become an exceptional country, where people could own their own work and realize their dreams, without anyone holding them down.

Don't know if that's what shaped it, but it's not hard to achieve when you have endless miles of fertile land and no one to contest them

>>598110

Book here

https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/podzim2013/SOC571E/um/_Routledge_Classics_Max_Weber-The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_CapitalismRoutledge_Classics_-Routledge__2001_.pdf

I read it last year it's around a 90 page essay with a lot more in notes after. Pretty much attributes the rise of modern capitalism to Calvinist tenets.

Like one thing it say's is the old asceticism of monasticism and others was replaced by a worldly asceticism in which one devoted oneself more to one's worldly duties. How well one did in ones worldly duties became a means of examining one's state of grace. Weber claimed that previously the church tolerated commerce and profiteering as a necessary evil but mentioned that large sums of money would be donated to the church upon peoples deaths.

Others would differ in opinion and attribute the development of capitalism to mercantilism.

There's also this video lecture which mentions how with Protestantism and the abandonment of so many festivities and seasons that medieval Christians had previously took part in made people spend more time in their work.

https://youtu.be/Y_klCLA3-24

I guess what could be surmised from all of it is that the way to success in the capitalist world is frugality, diligence, and thrift which requires constant calculation. Weber describes capitalism as not a means to and end but the goal in making profit for the sake of making profit. Still nonetheless he says that capitalism has become emancipated from its religious roots.

white people were always industrious. I believe the cold climate and the 'culture of trust' has more to do with it than religion.

t. white european protestant

Hmm that link doesn't seem to work when copied to the address bar try this instead other wise just google protestant ethic pdf and it should be among the first few links.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi6iYLAgofZAhXMpFkKHZyoD_wQFggnMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fis.muni.cz%2Fel%2F1423%2Fpodzim2013%2FSOC571E%2Fum%2F_Routledge_Classics_Max_Weber-The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_CapitalismRoutledge_Classics_-Routledge__2001_.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2zaDimEoKiiuolS-CF48ya

>>598113

>I'd wager that it was born out of the autistic german work ethic

That is half-true. A lot of the so-called American values (it should be clear I'm not talking about anti-racism or egalitarianism) which Libertarians praise are nothing else than traditional German virtues.

>>598125

>I believe the cold climate and the 'culture of trust' has more to do with it than religion.

This has a basis to it.

Compared to sub-Saharan Africa where everything grows almost anytime of the year without much effort we had to plan for 3 months of scarcity going to 3 months of utter cold barrenness.

We had to work both hard and smart to survive here.

Heck even south-Europe couldn't just do whatever they want since winter can be a pain too.

The same can be seen in Asian cultures where extreme seasonal changes were common (Japan, China, Korea).

Read Max Weber. And if another person calls me a marxist for recommending this I am not going to be happy.

>>598139

>Farming

Europe was still in the stone age when farming first started, the earliest Indo-European invaders were pastoralist nomads like people in eastern Africa today. Arabs had a pretty sizeable caliphate in desert regions.

One of the fundamental innovations that subsaharan Africa lacked were the technological developments like metallurgy that arose in the middle east. They entered the Iron Age at about the same time Southeast Asia as well as Japan did.

Indigenous North Americans don't seem to have developed more advanced architecture compared to those living in the Yucatan.

Places without winters have a wet and a dry season instead.

Now if you reject all the archaeology and anthropology and go by the bible then you would have to assume that Ham and his descendants possessed roughly the same amount of knowledge that Noah's other sons did.

>>598150

>>598139

meant for >>598136

post deletion isn't working for me

>>598110

From what I understand, you're supposed to glorify God through your industrious work. It's also more influential when you talk about God as a high-performer rather than deadweight.

T. Former prot

Protestant work ethic is a euphemism for capitalist usury.

Max Weber was a hack who misunderstood Calvinism, Lutheran, and Puritan theology and projected German work philosophies and modern Capitalistic thought on groups that were not concerned with such.

Oh, did you know the Puritan Pilgrims at first tried something akin to Communism? It failed of course, but they did not then shift to Capitalism, but a simple economic that could sustain the Pilgrims in a harsh environment.

Also, consider this: majority of northern America after the 1600's gained a huge influx of German immigrants, overriding the Calvinist Dutch and English.

>>598243

Why wouldn't a calvinist like you take the credit for shaping the current mightiest country in the world?

Also, didn't Lutherans have a similar work ethic?

>>598110

Protestant work ethic is what made the world today. If that didnt exist then the norm would the spaniard laziness

>>598286

>Why wouldn't a calvinist like you take the credit for shaping the current mightiest country in the world?

That the Puritans helped America be America I am in no way doubting. How they helped America be America, according to Weber, is what I'm contesting.

>this whole thread

1 timothy 6:5

>Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Stop assuming that they did it because of "protestantism". Who is this protestant? Is he Christ? I know him not, also see 1 corinthians 3:1-11. I think this poster >>598113 is correct, they did it of german tradition to survive cold weather, and not of faith romans 14:23.

>>598110

It was largely born out of necessity in the settlement of America.

Either you worked, or your whole family died in the winter. It just so happened that it was largely protestants who settled America, and they rediscovered what the Bible says about sloth when trying to motivate the lazy.

>>598110

>What do you protestants attribute this exceptional work ethic of yours, to?

Because most whites are protestants. I think it's more racial than religious tbh. Then again, the Irish are lazy sods while the English aren't so maybe it is a mix of religion and race.

It's a meme. If you want to see divinely inspired work ethic look at monastic orders

>>598734

this

>>598139

/leftypol/ hates Weber

>>598195

>ya don't work, ya don't eat

>lending money at interest instead of tilling the fields

Pick one, and only one.

>>598110

>What do you protestants attribute this exceptional work ethic of yours, to?

I honestly don't know much about the protestant work ethic as anything more than a history meme.

Luther has a famous misattributed quote that states

"The Christian shoemaker does his Christian duty not by putting little crosses on the shoes, but by making good shoes, because God is interested in good craftsmanship."

It's not luther for real (the idea that god likes craftsmanship doesn't fit), but it does fit with his ideas about vocation somewhat, with good work in actual luther being a service to the neighbour, and thus a good christian work as well.

Personally, though, I learned most of my life-lessons from my stepfather, who had more rustic advice from a life being a blue collar american black man (pentecostal extraction, but unchurched for the most part as an adult) than from protestantism. His words echo biblical truth in many cases (for example, his advice for arguments in a relationship was "don't go to sleep until you resolve things", which echos ephesians 4:26), but that isn't the point.

His teachings about work ethic are mostly old carpenter/construction worker memes; "pay attention to detail", "work smarter not harder", "don't half-ass the job", "do it right the first time, or don't do it at all", but the core of it, where the biblical truth is found and the summary of all work for him is in "you gotta do whatever it takes to make money to support that wife and family of yours", which echos 1 timothy 5:8.

So while I can see some protestants who said this or that and make post-hoc formulations on how that influenced my work ethic, really I didn't get my work ethic from luther or calvin…I got it from my dad.

>>602493

My parents always drilled one thing:

"whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

True, it's kind of out of context, but I've built a lot of my working life around the idea that every "shoe" I make should be as adequate for the King of Kings as I can make it.

wtf is this meme, any christian who loves the lord and reads their bible will work hard for god

>>598136

there's also the notion of time preference, high time preference probably developed by having to plan and negotiate food stores over harsh winters requiring a lot of forethought and delayed gratification thinking