/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

"It is better to trust in the Lord than to trust in man"

Don't decide what the right denomination for you is based on what other people do or say. I know if people were to become Orthodox or not based on how righteous I am then nobody would be at Liturgy on Sunday :^). I would say try to focus on your own sins and your relationship with Christ first before judging others.

As far as which is the true Church: examine the doctrinal differences, then examine the arguments for and against, and with prayer and study come to your conclusion. Aesthetics can be a marker of the Truth, but what really matters is the "what is it you actually believe" part.

>>597815

>I, I, I, me, me, me

>>597815

What do you mean by “the orthodox church”. I didn’t know that was a place you could physically go. From my point of view, there are about 23 Catholic churches. 22 of them are sometimes called “Orthodox”. Which one are you speaking of?

>>597873

OCA (Russian)

>>597887

I get it. This is the difference between the capital “O in the lower case “o. I do not think that your association is one of the 23. But I am speaking of things far from my knowledge base. Are you, in fact, in league with Rome?

James 1:2-8

2 Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7, 8 For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord.

>>597897

>>597815

My point is, pray on it.

Lots.

>>597887

https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/church-history/seventh-century/relations-with-rome

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/putins-corrupted-orthodoxy/

I hunted around and found these. I’m still a little unclear as to the origins of your church. I do believe that it is the church the Putin revived in Russia, after the USSR crushed it. Is that the case?

>How do I know if Catholicism is for me?

<It is for you. But Orthodoxy is for the glory of God. 💯💯💯💯💯💯

Shitpousting aside, I'm sorry to hear about how politicized your fellow parishioners are. Lord have mercy. Have them in your prayers every morning. On one hand, it's an exciting time for orthodoxy, since it is resurging in the east and emerging in the west. I'm sure many see this as a time for apologia, and it is. In the west, Orthodoxy is young and vulnerable. Converts need to know where it is in history and where it is today. And even those born into the faith largely need to be recatechized. So there is a lot of talk about the politics between orthodoxy and rome. Don't let it distract you from faith, however. Have patience, have faith, try to be a good influence, and above all pray. God bless.

>>597928

I recognize that image from the Catholic art thread. Nice find.

>>597932

s/catholic/katholikos/

>>597933

Yeah I know. I posted that image to the Catholic Art thread. I’m just trying to draw attention to the fact of the moderators of bumped locked that thread. They’re trying to bury it. Or maybe it reached some type a limit. But I’ve been posting on that shit for weeks keeping it at the top of the board. Now it’s falling to the bottom even though people are still posting

>>597815

You should follow the truth.

I will say this: Orthodox theological tradition is quite different in tone to Catholic theology. You may want to read some more Orthodox writing and see if you still feel the same way after that. If you are inclined to rationalistic cataphatic style of Catholic theology/philosophy, you may be disappointed. But it sounds like (with your talk of art and the saints) that the Orthodox approach wouldn't be a problem to you. Honestly, though, and people can feel free to criticise me for this, but I think Catholicism's love of philosophy (and especially secular philosophical traditions) are one of the reasons for such liberalism in the church.

You can find counterpoints to everything you listed in the Orthodox church. The only thing lacking is the aesthetic. There is a beautiful tradition of art, the saints, varied music (listen to a Bulgarian chant then a Romanian chant and then a Greek chant to see how varied the styles are even when singing the same hymns), prayer ropes, etc. I suggest immersing yourself in Orthodox tradition and seeing.

In English-speaking "new world" countries, the ethnic thing is a real problem in Orthodox, I'll admit. Instead of founding national churches in these new countries, immigrants just brought their own national church here and they became a lot like social clubs. Even in their home countries, it's no surprise that during times of sectarian conflict, churches fill up with fairweather "Christians" for nothing other than patriotic reasons.

You have a couple options (not sure what type of church you attend now) if you choose to stay in the Orthodox faith:

1. depending on your country, there are often churches who worship entirely in the English language and cater to either children of immigrants who were born here or converts (closest to me is a Russian church);

2. look for your local Antiochan church. For some reason, they've always been pretty friendly to converts and often have a decent number of converts. Even when they don't, I find them to be less overtly patriotic/political about it.

If you choose to enter the Catholic church, but are worried about the mass, there are three options and depending on where you live, it shouldn't be too hard to find at least one of these:

1. traditional latin mass church. People raised there or who seek it out all tend to be much more conservative than perhaps you'd see in a lot of Catholic churches these days;

2. a personal ordinariate (Anglican use) church. It isn't the latin mass you'd expect, but they are also very traditional and it's much better than NO;

3. any of the other rite churches (pretty common if you seek them out), such as Maronite or Ukrainian Greek Catholic. Byzantine rite Catholics would be an easy transition for you, I'm assuming.

>>597956

>You should follow the truth.

This.

C.S. Lewis:

“The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may be) is, I think, preferable. It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light; and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house.

>And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and panelling.

In plain language, the question should never be: 'Do I like that kind of service?' but 'Are these doctrines true: is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?'

When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if there are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house.”

― C.S. Lewis

>>597978

I really get fed up of this tiresome mentality. I honestly think this is causing of many of the problems that have festered for too long in post-1960's Christian thought. The judgement of God is clearly laid out in the word. I'm not here to sell you anything. And it's not all about doing you more good in the long run either, it is about filling the purpose, the role set for you, which is to glorify God only in the way God wants.

>common to the whole house.

It has to be to the whole house? And how big has this house grown to now in the late 2010s? Will it ever stop? Why should anyone ever treat the truth as a democracy or accept that as reasonable from anyone else, much less encourage it? Maybe if you didn't have a zeal for the truth, you'd think that. But I do not truly consider that advice kind. Even if you mix in true statements, you haven't convinced me of this point.

What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

[15] And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

[16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

[18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

>>597815

Bruh, you don't get ready for christmation if you're not sure you want to stay

>>597956

thank you for your excellent post anon. I'll give it time and immerse myself in the orthodox tradition.

>>597815

>How do I know if Catholicism is for me?

Catholicism is for everyone in the sense that it is the one true Church established by God who wills that all be joined to him in communion with his Church.

Your gut instinct is correct. Reading your post, I completely see where you are coming from. Your spiritual insights will guide you to a true faith. I will pray for you to discover the truth of the Catholic faith.

(btw yes I have also been realizing lately that Orthodox are plagued by derisive polemics and competition. Their churches are organized based on ethnicity and nationality more often than not, and in discussions I find that they are infatuated with denying the authority of the papacy.)

>>598010

I'm not OP, but how does one know if he is ready for christmation?

>>598009

>It has to be to the whole house?

>…What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?

This quote is from Mere Christianity and the context is discerning the truth *within* Christianity. This can sometimes take a lifetime for people even with the best intentions. Lewis, the author of this quote, didn't even convert from Anglicanism to Catholicism until he was on his deathbed, but he got there eventually from following that philosophy.

>>598032

>This quote is from Mere Christianity

So its above question?

>and the context is discerning the truth *within* Christianity.

But not really. Because people promoting sodomy and filth aren't really in the same "house" at all but his modern, liberal, outlook tells you to take all "points of view" in equal consideration. So if not all "churches" are against sodomy or adultery, that means you don't have to worry about it yet according to Lewis. It's all relative; those aren't the "accepted" rules of the whole house anymore. And a person can be excused for not following them. And we should never rebuke anyone, that's a big no-no.

>>598032

>ecumenism leads to popery

Really makes you think

My mother wasn't very religious, she somewhat raised me Catholic, but she eventually stopped attending. My father was raised a baptist, and himself didn't attend church. Because of this, I went in my edgy atheist phase, throwing away a kid's bible (which I regret) and openly talked about how stupid religion was.

Eventually, I backed off, and just slowly became an apatheist, then a deist. Throughout this, I slowly became more and more degenerate and begun to get bizarre fetishes. Eventually, in late November of last year, I tried to go back, it was a Novus Ordo mass and…I felt nothing.

Then, I attended a traditional latin mass, and it felt so much more different, so special, and that the presence of Christ is really there. If that was the kind of mass I went to as a child, I would probably want to go more.

>>598066

I'm not saying it's above question, I was trying to explain the context. You're rightfully concerned about churches that say it's okay to sin mortally, but extracting that Lewis said it's okay to be in any church that gives you good feels is actually the total opposite of the point he was trying to address.

For some people what's comfortable may be a church with doctrine that plays to their political bias, for others it may be the aesthetically pleasing traditional liturgy. He's saying to seek the straight and narrow even if it's not comfortable, which later led to his deathbed conversion after a lifetime of anti-Catholic bias and before that a life of atheism and dabbling in paganism. That quote is actually totally aligned with everything you're trying to get at, I think perhaps you just misunderstood without the context.

>>598074

And also, the rule common to all "houses" in this metaphor is the golden rule: love your neighbor as yourself. He's not talking about buttsecks or never rebuking anyone when speaking of what rules are common to the whole house, just that we are called to love everyone.

>>598074

>but extracting that Lewis said it's okay to be in any church that gives you good feels is actually the total opposite of the point he was trying to address.

He's saying you have "your truth" (i.e. your door as he himself put it) and others may have their truth, and we are all really on the same page however, all things being equal and reciprocal, because the intentionally unstated implication is that God is leading each of us to different doors. It's really just typical liberal values couched in partial truths.

And he does say "you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house" meaning that if a precept like no fornication is only deemed acceptable by some but not all, then it's not held in common, then you are therefore excused from following it while still being considered on a valid "path." Don't you see the trap? Only what every world church agrees on is supposedly the most important. What goes beyond that is "for you" but not for all. While he plays games at saying "you shouldn't delay in finding the truth," the things he's saying implies the opposite simultaneously. And also, it is implied that "light" and "truth" is somehow different for each person, or else, Lewis himself would be able to tell you what the truth is objectively. But he doesn't do that. And this is the primary giveaway. I don't care what kind of escape clauses he planted elsewhere in his book, that's what this right here is. He'd be able to tell you what it is if he believed in objective truth. He wouldn't be comparing the one and only truth and many falsehoods as a bunch of similar-appearing doors that appeal differently to each personality if he thought only one correct choice existed. So therefore the reader is inevitably going to conclude that the choice is subjective, albeit paired with considerate warnings not to use shallow-seeming reasons for making said subjective choice. This is pure poison.

This is the exact kind of thinking that has gotten us to this corrupt time. It's liberal.

>He's not talking about buttsecks or never rebuking anyone

I've read the books. He is quite consistent in casting negative light on any form of rebuke whatsoever, and cautioning against it, probably due to the fact that he does constantly imply what's right for some is wrong for others and matters of personal choice are "real for you."

>>598319

Don't the Orthodox have that holy fire thing that occurs once a year? I personally don't think you should rely on the frequency of miracles to determine which branch has the best dogma, but you should look into that.

>>598325

I've just checked this on the website dedicated to the miracle. It looks shady as fuck tbh. Cannot be filmed, only ever happen if the specific patriarch that knows the specific prayer enter the tomb alone. Cannot be seen by non-orthodox. Meanwhile the eucharistic miracles are thoroughly checked by scientific examination that confirms the nature of the heart tissues. I don't know… are they all pretty much bullshit? Should I ignore these?

>>598343

Also, in every video you can just see the guy inside lighting the torches…

>>598343

http://orthochristian.com/30198.html

look into our weeping icons, many have been cured of illnesses and other miracles

>>598319

>image

Fatima is real. Read a book about it. You will be amazed.

Catholic church is the only universal church. Where is the orthodox church in Sri Lanka and Vietnam and Haiti and Senegal. Yup the catholic church is everywhere. believe me friend. The catholic church is the one true church. Don't judge the church based on the current state right now on some parishes. See the fervour of some of the churches especially in the developing world.

also majority of orthodox westener (american) converts are just orthodox cause they realized protestanism is totally a joke (true) and but still hold loads of anti catholic bias that they've been breastfeed since they were kids and so can't bare to become catholic so they larp as orthodogs. MEOW TO YOU KYRIE ELEISON become a catholic it's the truth.

my mama loves st francis of assisi and he was such a G talking to wolves and birds and orthodox say prelest (spiritual delusion) they even say st john of the cross was nuts etc. just an example of their disunity there are certain churches which orthos cant decide if they are ortho or not. it's honestly nonsense. cause they are bitter fools who have been cucked their whole history utter jokes. the cats saved their tales at least a little bit with the crusades. hagia sophia is literally cucked to this day. orthos are frankly speaking worthless. anyways a few of em joined back and the rest will or become protty heretics like the rest of them.

>>597944

>Brazil has the same problem with Catholic majority but nobody talks about it

>Image still gets posted

When will you admit that you're a full on hypocrite?

>>597815

Go to traditional Latin mass. You're right about what Catholics talk about: we don't talk about or bash protestants and schismatics. Be wary of the sin of schism: seeking disunity between the Western and Eastern Churches is a mortal sin.

I would carry on getting chrismated if I were you and then visit some traditional Latin masses or reverently sung novus ordo traditional masses in cathedrals. Talk to the priest and receive the Eucharist there (you're allowed to)

>>598409

I would love to believe weeping Icons but this can easily be explained by oils that are solid at room temperature and melt at a slightly higher temperature. Constantly anointing the icon with oil tops it up.

>>598726

i can take pics of the ones in our parish. also the icons are never anointed with oil

ask God for a difficult faith. this is how the truth faith was revealed to me when i was in the same situation

http://therosemarytree.blogspot.com/2009/01/rule-of-theotokos-byzantine-rosary.html