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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 9a9329842d2331d⋯.jpg (753.72 KB, 1000x1632, 125:204, 1504174751247.jpg)

File: ec0c1874eb403d4⋯.jpg (232.71 KB, 1080x1524, 90:127, lebanonmbmc.jpg)

File: da68f8851a53ea0⋯.jpg (20.26 KB, 276x426, 46:71, NUPLI125120291476.jpg)

e26cd9 No.597175

What is the Bible's stance on self defense? Some background information:

I am a Lebanese living in Lebanon. My parents and relatives, most notably my father and both uncles all fought in the civil war that ravaged the country for fifteen years. A simple Google search will tell you all about it. I understand the Bible teaches to turn the other cheek and other related verses, but when is it acceptable to actually stand and fight and kill? I know one of the most important commandments is not to kill another fellow human being, but does it change at all in the context of war, or rather actual self defence?

bf4275 No.597179

File: 0b6b6bc618d0890⋯.jpg (94.81 KB, 898x701, 898:701, unnamed.jpg)

File: 1dde53f4ed15174⋯.jpg (60.32 KB, 640x635, 128:127, IMG_20180108_001135.jpg)

Aquinas covers what just war and legitimate self defense is but as for specific Bible verses, I'm a bit dry :/


e26cd9 No.597182

File: 6a7a2fa5f3483dc⋯.jpg (26.77 KB, 480x540, 8:9, 1516984055093.jpg)

>>597179

Would you mind linking one his works? If you can't, could you tell me what the work is called if you remember so I can specifically search it up myself?


bf4275 No.597186


e26cd9 No.597192

>>597186

Thanks man.


e26cd9 No.597193

>>597186

I forgot to ask, are the soldiers in pic related Assyrians? I noticed the text on the badges are in Syriac.


89424a No.597195

>>597175

That Michael thing smells of New Age garbage.

>Energy

>Vibration

>"across the lines of time"


e26cd9 No.597196

>>597195

I honestly don't know what to think of it now that you mentioned it.


225012 No.597199

File: 2e1f451f4ba4a16⋯.jpg (1.41 MB, 2448x2448, 1:1, image.jpg)

Ahla w sahla, I thought I was the only Leb here. You're Maronite, right? I'm Greek Orthodox. My family fled during the war, but a family friend stayed behind and killed 98 Muslims in a single night, along with this kid that lost all his family to them and helped with the defense of the village. I also want to know when lethal self defense is right. The civil war was pretty much the end of Lebanon's glory days.

Also, do you support Hezbollah blindly, or are you cautious of their true Islamic intentions? We Christians in the Middle East are like the shish. We have the fire (Islam) facing us and our backs to the knife (Israel)


e26cd9 No.597204

File: dc88857205bba9b⋯.jpg (10.11 KB, 188x250, 94:125, 1505740680350.jpg)

>>597199

Ya hala.

>You're Maronite, right? I'm Greek Orthodox.

Yes I am.

> The civil war was pretty much the end of Lebanon's glory days.

No doubt about that.

>Also, do you support Hezbollah blindly, or are you cautious of their true Islamic intentions?

I support Hezbollah on their hatred of Zionism and how they help defend the country from them. Regarding their true Islamic intentions, I understand Hezbollah's core ideology is to bring Khomeinism into Lebanon and it wishes to turn the country into an Islamic Republic, similar to that of Iran. However, some anons have told me that Nasrallah has stated in one of his speeches that the group will disband this ideology and will focus on purely being a defence/resistance force. I'm not sure though. Do you have any more information on Hezbollah's true intentions?

>We Christians in the Middle East are like the shish. We have the fire (Islam) facing us and our backs to the knife (Israel)

Such is life here.


6ba242 No.597246

>>597175

1 and 2 Maccabees describe a legitimate war, so you can check them. If you want a quick description of the Church teachings, see this part of the Catechism:

>2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."

>2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.

>2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

>2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

>2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."


6ba242 No.597249


e26cd9 No.597253

>>597249

>>597246

Thanks fren


f18e39 No.597494

File: e20fdfb8b263ccd⋯.jpg (102.77 KB, 720x960, 3:4, IMG_20180105_130524.jpg)

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>>597193

Yes they are :) from the Syriac Military Council (MFS). Cofounders of the Syrian Democratic Forces, they're the single largest Christian (Orthodox, Eastern Catholic and Church of the East) milita in Syria and are defeating ISIS as we speak. They're /ourguys/ but are hardly spoken about


e26cd9 No.597553

>>597494

No wayyy. Do you have any more information about them?


f18e39 No.597683

File: eac74e97f7a4d11⋯.jpg (121.07 KB, 900x599, 900:599, IMG_20180108_162533.jpg)

File: 9875e599bdb8219⋯.jpg (212.1 KB, 1024x683, 1024:683, 857915996.jpg)

File: e28ac96901a88c1⋯.jpg (27.25 KB, 612x408, 3:2, 857916086.jpg)

>>597553

Of course! A quick Google search can give you more info and they're wiki page isn't a bad place to start. They're not the only Assyrian milita in the region but they're the largest and have members from all three major denominations (sorry prots). Also they have their own woman's brigade called the HSNB. They've been fighting ISIS and Al Nusra since they invaded around 2014 and have participated in the liberation of Raqqa. As of right now they still have soldiers fighting the last pocket of ISIS resistance. Definitely check them out.


e26cd9 No.597693

>>597683

Thanks! In all honesty, I don't know if I would call them Christians, with all due respect, since they wear tattoos and the Bible prohibits such things. I don't know, I could be wrong.


6ba242 No.597696

>>597693

The Catholic Church at least doesn't prohibit them. The Old Testament law in question is agreed to have been purely ceremonial, like prohibition against eating pork.


e26cd9 No.597721

>>597696

I see, thanks.


be423f No.600092

>>597175

>when is it acceptable to actually stand and fight and kill

Never. Unless you are defending yourself against a bear or something. There is absolutely no excuse for killing another human, not since the Old Testament.


e26cd9 No.600101

>>597721

>Never. Unless you are defending yourself against a bear or something. There is absolutely no excuse for killing another human, not since the Old Testament.

So if let's say Muslim hordes or whomever are going around killing everyone in my village, and they reach my door, I'm supposed to just let them in?


16c2f4 No.600128

As with all moral acts the use of force to obtain justice must comply with three conditions to be morally good. First, the act must be good in itself. The use of force to obtain justice is morally licit in itself. Second, it must be done with a good intention, which as noted earlier must be to correct vice, to restore justice or to restrain evil, and not to inflict evil for its own sake. Thirdly, it must be appropriate in the circumstances. An act which may otherwise be good and well motivated can be sinful by reason of imprudent judgment and execution.

In this regard Just War doctrine gives certain conditions for the legitimate exercise of force, all of which must be met:

"1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

3. there must be serious prospects of success;

4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" [CCC 2309].

The Church greatly respects those who have dedicated their lives to the defense of their nation. "If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace. [Cf. Gaudium et spes 79, 5]" However, she cautions combatants that not everything is licit in war. Actions which are forbidden, and which constitute morally unlawful orders that may not be followed, include:

- attacks against, and mistreatment of, non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners;

- genocide, whether of a people, nation or ethnic minorities;

- indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants


e26cd9 No.600138

>>600128

Thank you.


e26cd9 No.600139

>>600128

I forgot to ask you though, what does the Bible say in all this? I understand what you wrote to me is part of the Catechism, but I would really like to know if the Bible has anything to say in this.


015282 No.600140

>>600139

You have a lot of questions, about very serious things. Why don't you bring them to your priest? He'll give you the clearest answer possible and can redirect you to ressources on the subject.


371066 No.600142

>>597175

that guy on the second pic is an anti- isis fighter

the head was from an isis soldier


e26cd9 No.600143

>>600140

>You have a lot of questions, about very serious things. Why don't you bring them to your priest? He'll give you the clearest answer possible and can redirect you to resources on the subject.

Will do.

>>600142

Didn't know that.


015282 No.600150

>>600139

As to what we can and cannot do, I can try to give an Orthodox response, but I doubt a Maronite would care… Unless you're a Melkite.

We cannot kill to defend our person. I think the sermon on the mount is clear enough.

We can kill to defend others. John 15:13, and the many OT verses about the value of family and of the nation.

If we are given the authority to kill by the state, we must not abuse our position. Luke 3:14

We cannot kill with hate, and we should pray for those we have killed or we are ordred to fight with. Ezekiel 18:23, 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Several saints have said that by disarming Peter when he was trying to defend him, Christ disarmed all soldiers. Warfare can only be kept as an absolute last resort, and it remains a symptom of our diseased nature, not something pleasing to God.


e26cd9 No.600151

>>600150

>I can try to give an Orthodox response, but I doubt a Maronite would care… Unless you're a Melkite

Hey man don't worry about it, I like listening to all answers, regardless of denomination. Thank you.


aa0646 No.600182

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.


89424a No.600183

>>600101

No. Prevention of further loss of life, by the removal of a dangerous animal (evil people included), is justified. If an evil man breaks into a home and threatens the inhabitants with death or harm, God will not judge any of the inhabitants for exterminating him.


609fc5 No.600198

pacifism is evil if it means standing by while innocent folks, your family or your tribe are assaulted.


e26cd9 No.600201




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