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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: fd2cb8ae8afd7c9⋯.jpg (168.43 KB, 1440x1057, 1440:1057, bethlehem-3.jpg)

a6cf31 No.596058

Show me examples of Protestant (faith alone) Christianity before Luther. If Luther is right, then surely real "Christianity" existed since Christ, but all I see are apostolic churches with rituals.

b536f0 No.596061

there's a pic of quotes from either one or several church fathers expounding faith alone that gets posted on here from time to time, not that I have it saved unfortunately for you (and am sure cathodox have a response to it I guess, also)


b52d0e No.596067

>>596061

This, also there were other pre-protestant churches that broke off, but of course never got that big. Also you realize OP that people can destroy and create fake documents right? Especially that long ago.


cf1d04 No.596075

Doesn't the formula "faith alone" come directly from Augustine?


2a1e7b No.596082

Epistle to the Romans


b536f0 No.596089

>>596067

>also there were other pre-protestant churches that broke off

I just scrolled through the meme thread to find angel pastor Jim to post but he wasn't there alas


7d5164 No.596102

>>596067

>This, also there were other pre-protestant churches that broke off, but of course never got that big.

Because a lot of them also tried going after secular powers as well as ecclesiastical ones like the Dolcinists and Lollardist peasants in England (see John Ball).

>Also you realize OP that people can destroy and create fake documents right? Especially that long ago.

Unfalsifiable claims count as false witness, my friend.


ca7951 No.596105

Paul.


54ead1 No.596106


91b783 No.596116

File: 610d36ee76df07c⋯.png (2.51 MB, 1200x3828, 100:319, ifb never existed.png)

File: 4da349c50d638cb⋯.png (108.31 KB, 544x484, 136:121, the hole left by the catho….png)


a6cf31 No.596131

>>596067

>>596061

did someone destroy the infograph as well?


a6cf31 No.596132

>>596082

I'm asking for examples of "Christianity" between 400 and 1500.


a024bf No.596133

>>596105

>>596082

>ctrl-f book of Romans "faith alone"

>0 results found


8af8e4 No.596134

>>596102

>>Also you realize OP that people can destroy and create fake documents right? Especially that long ago.

>Unfalsifiable claims count as false witness, my friend.

he didn't claim it, he just stated it was a possibility.

altered/forged documents:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Isidorian_Decretals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

destroyed documents (and authors):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum


5969ab No.596135

>>596132

>I'm asking for examples of "Christianity" between 400 and 1500

So after Constantine had already took over and corrupted the church. That deck is stacked in your favor obviously.


2a1e7b No.596136

>>596132

Whoever compelled Justinian to pass this law

Codex Justinianus Book 1, Title 6 (A.D. 529)

>Emperors Honorius and Theodosius to Anthemius, praetorian Prefect.

>If any person shall be discovered to rebaptize anyone of the catholic faith, he, together with him who has permitted this infamous crime – provided the person persuaded to be rebaptized be of an age capable of a crime – shall be punished by death. Given at Constantinople March 21, 413, C.T. 16.6.6


a024bf No.596137

Read the Martyrdom of Polycarp and you'll find a faith totally alien to Protestantism. You'll get Prots quote mining Church fathers out of context in a vain attempt to try to garner Patristic support or show that there never was a Patristic consensus, but the reality is that Protestantism is a development of the political and philosophical milieu of the time in which it arose.


7799b3 No.596138

Can anyone post a PDF or something about the practices, liturgy, heirarchy, ANYTHING of 1st century churches?


8af8e4 No.596140

>>596132

Clement of Rome:

>"We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

Ignatius:

>"His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: "muniments" are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.

Polycarp:

>"I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Justin Martyr:

>"No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer…are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us…for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? …O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).

Ireneus:

>"Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation."

Cyprian:

>"If Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, then each one, who believes in God and lives by faith, is found to be a righteous person."

Athanasius:

>"Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."

Basil:

>"This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Ambrose:

>"Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."

Origen:

>"Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because…the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but…he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."

Jerome:

>"When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Chrysostom:

>"What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous… it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works…but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."

>"Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that hewho adhered to Faith alone, is blessed."

Augustine:

>"Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you…it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him…good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified…good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

>"Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,–in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."

Anselm:

>"Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and …put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.""

Bernard of Clairvaux:

>"Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore…let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls…whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."

you will find quotes by a lot of these same authors contradicting themselves, and people can lazily interpret some of these to support faith+works instead of faith alone. patristics suck


a6cf31 No.596142

>>596135

Start going to church on Saturday then.


a6cf31 No.596144

>>596138

The Didache.


a6cf31 No.596145

>>596140

Interesting, yet most of those whom you quote partook in the sacraments. Why?


2a1e7b No.596150

>>596140

>you will find quotes by a lot of these same authors contradicting themselves, and people can lazily interpret some of these to support faith+works instead of faith alone. patristics suck

Yeah because it's the art of private interpretation. That's why we don't use them in place of Scripture. 2 Peter 1:20 only applies to the God-inspired word of God. The use they have is therefore seldom. Also hilarious anachronisms are typically assumed about historical people who knew of no such concepts as we argue about today. It's just no point in arguing this because men are fallible, there are many private interpretations of these things, the understanding then held can be corrupted, which is not to be a surprise these things being not relevant to acquiring knowledge of the doctrine of Christ.


a024bf No.596154

>>596150

>private interpretation

Yes, the Church Fathers weren't guided by the Holy Spirit but Pastor Steven Anderson in his rented strip mall space is.

Baptists are so silly it's impossible to hate them.


90029c No.596155

>>596135

So you're saying the gates of hell prevailed against the Church after Constantine failed to get the Church to accept Arianism?


54ead1 No.596156

>>596145

I don't know why Catholics think sacraments are somehow offensive to us, seeing as all of the reformers happily used the term


06e894 No.596159

>>596145

Because every apostolic church believes that faith without works is dead but that works on its own don't save you.

What really saves you is faith in Christ, what keeps you saved is keeping the commandments.

I can keep every commandment, yet go to hell if I don't believe, yet I can believe in Christ, but go to hell because I didn't even try to keep His commandments.

>>596156

Because your 'sacraments' are a travesty to us.

We believe in the Real Presence and confession, you guys don't.


a6cf31 No.596163

>>596159

> What really saves you is faith in Christ, what keeps you saved is keeping the commandments.

Completely agree and it's what I find very difficult about accepting Baptist theology. They teach that it's faith alone and once you're saved you're always saved but you still shouldn't continue to sin, why? Well, because sin is wrong, of course, and wrong to enjoy.

They realize they're compelled to do good works but force a really odd distinction between faith and works that I'm not sure functions as they intend it to.

I could be wrong, I'm trying to be generous here.


54ead1 No.596169

>>596159

Transubstantiation =/= real presence


b52d0e No.596171

>>596133

Romans

1:16-17

3:20/22/24-28/30

4:2-9/11/14-16/24

5:1/15-18

6:23

8:24

9:30-33

10:3-4/9-10/13

11:6


7d5164 No.596172

>>596169

>bread and wine taking the material form of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit

>nvm guise its not really Him lol


951692 No.596176

File: 9dd25fc55075109⋯.png (58.33 KB, 783x316, 783:316, Screen Shot 2018-01-29 at ….png)

>>596133

>>596171

Embarrassing…


b36bc7 No.596178

>>596155

No. The true church is just all of the elect. They were driven underground after the great falling away where the 'church' merged with the state under Constantine.


b36bc7 No.596179

File: 78b6ec2ab136792⋯.gif (25.64 KB, 458x235, 458:235, 0074_21.gif)

>>596172

>sarcastically mocking people who don't think pieces of bread regularly turn into literal pieces of a human being


8af8e4 No.596180

File: e0c6b4e5f173a3d⋯.jpg (311.68 KB, 903x716, 903:716, jerome.jpg)

>>596145

>Yes, the Church Fathers weren't guided by the Holy Spirit but Pastor Steven Anderson in his rented strip mall space is.

i unironically believe this about some of the "church fathers," some of them were [insert accurate yet charitable description my mind can't think of here].

also: his congregation not being wealthy enough to worship in a gilded catacomb is no reason to bash him.


a6cf31 No.596186

>>596178

>They were driven underground

Can I please have some evidence of this? I'm not arguing with you. I'd like some books or anything on this topic of where these Christians were, how we know they existed, how they resisted etc


7d5164 No.596191

File: 828896ebd9ee28c⋯.gif (1.19 MB, 480x270, 16:9, fa419d873aad2f7c4c0e0ece31….gif)

>>596179

>Chicktracts

>>596186

Source: His ass


7b84d2 No.596219

>>596116

>implying St. Peter wasn't the Bishop of Rome at the time of his death

>implying a network of churches under the authority of the successor to Peter is a bad idea

>implying that the Baptist Church existed before the 1600s

0/10


848cf8 No.596221

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

7b84d2 No.596223

>>596221

>trusting Nestorians


848cf8 No.596226

>>596223

Yep, that's what he did.

>He opposed Adoptionism as a milder form of the Nestorian heresy


048033 No.596227

>>596219

I cannot understate how much I hate how dry and humorless you people are. It's only on this board too, you guys can be pretty funny, but C*tholics on this board are the most dry and humorless people I've ever encountered online


848cf8 No.596229

>>596227

Don't be harsh on them. Francis is their current example of Jesus on earth.


951692 No.596230

>>596227

Argument/10


048033 No.596232

>>596229

I mean, I want to be clear, I have nothing against Catholics, but you can post the most obvious joke on this board and they won't get it. Then they make memes and it's always the most unimaginative /leftypol/-tier garbage. It's just a weird phenomenon I've only seen on this board


848cf8 No.596233

>>596232

Maybe there was sour grapes mixed in with their Eucharists?

From my experience, Catholics, like leftist extremists, have a superiority & inferiority complex. They present themselves as royalty among peasants, but scream "I'm being persecuted" when someone disagree with them. Of course, responding with memes (while it's funny) doesn't help matters much.


feac3b No.596238

File: 6dacde790211dc0⋯.jpg (74.49 KB, 1000x559, 1000:559, Luther1.jpg)

File: f91c7e923dd735a⋯.jpg (81.34 KB, 1000x559, 1000:559, Luther2.jpg)

File: 387fe046b57b1db⋯.jpg (76.82 KB, 1000x559, 1000:559, Luther3.jpg)

File: 4806eb63eb5f464⋯.jpg (90.68 KB, 640x640, 1:1, Thou-art-Luther.jpg)

>>596116

>first image

I was actually feeling you until

>martin luther

>king james

>anderson

If that's who you're getting your le based theology from, then it's no wonder that you are so lost

>second image

now you're just making crap up

<mfw the surge in lost souls is due to protestantism his ugly brother modernism


0f2024 No.596239

File: d66ce4d0f65ab62⋯.jpg (380.62 KB, 1000x720, 25:18, d66ce4d0f65ab6204e4254cbc4….jpg)

>>596227

A baptist could have said this seriously, I'm not sure they all take these >>596116 as jokes.

You never know with them.


7b84d2 No.596242

>>596227

>t. triggered prod

the second joke was good (if you remove soul winning efforts it's perfect) but the first joke was trash (you need to overexaggerate on the papist expressions)


7b84d2 No.596244

>>596226

lmao it looked like he was supporting non nicene old Ethiopian churches and I assumed that he was talking about Nestorianism or some other heresy


848cf8 No.596245

>>596244

Oh.

Nestorius escaped to Asia, not Africa, forming a group called the Assyrians of the East.


048033 No.596246

>>596239

They are literally memes. Those pictures are nothing more than memes. At no point have those pictures been posted seriously.


0f2024 No.596247

>>596246

>They are literally memes. Those pictures are nothing more than memes. At no point have those pictures been posted seriously.

>Implying it's not the same with baptist themself


5a0048 No.596251

>>596238

>>596219

>>596239

> thinking those meme images were intended as anything other than jokes

The part of your brain which detects irony isn't working properly. I bet when you see one of those expanding brain images, you think that the most expanded brain is legitimately the smartest opinion.


048033 No.596252

File: 3f453d71d521a30⋯.png (238.92 KB, 400x763, 400:763, whomst baptist.png)

>>596251

>I bet when you see one of those expanding brain images, you think that the most expanded brain is legitimately the smartest opinion.

Actually, sometimes it is


5969ab No.596253

>>596246

I've noticed this with atheists too. They literally are autistic and unable to appreciate irony or sarcasm. For example Roger Ebert made a sarcastic article about creationism to make fun of creationists and the atheists took it literally and called him an idiot even though he was on their side. Or some Christians made a video making fun of Dawkins and they were unable to tell which side the video was on. Then atheists made up 'Poe's law' saying it's impossible to parody Christians as a cover for their own lack of a sense of humor. The Catholics on this board are similar to atheists in this respect.


feac3b No.596258

>>596252

>>596251

Now THAT is irony


11f84c No.596375

>>596178

Driven underground? Do you mean when Arianism was first driven underground immediately follow the council of Niceia? Do you mean when the catholic Church was driven underground after the death of Constantine as Arianism took hold of the political power of the roman empire? Or do you mean following that when Jovian reinstated Catholicism as the state religion and Arianism was driven underground? What is the name of the group you are talking about?


044109 No.597825

>>596176

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Embarrassing…


2a1e7b No.597839

File: f8c10a4b73cb3c7⋯.jpg (520.79 KB, 862x2808, 431:1404, d09fd4473.JPG)




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