/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I'm not sure what you mean here - is this credo or speculation? Also, I think it's kind of dangerous to ascribe exactly how eschatological events occur, more than in scripture. The consistent faith is death, then judgement, with an end of the world at some point. A lot of this is prophesy, and like all prophesy, you'll know when you know.

If they think that when you die you join Jesus then are snatched up to a higher plane with the rapture, I mean, yeah, that's not something I think would be widely held. The only analogous thing I can think of is a plane of purification, often referred to as purgatory, but again, I think that's discussed very differently. Did I get this right at all?

>>592297

When I said plane I literally just meant Heaven, God's place of being, the spiritual realm etc. They preach that you go there when you die (if you're saved) and then that's it, that's the whole point of Jesus and God and creation is to escape into a spiritual place called Heaven, leaving all of God's creation behind to rot and/or be devoured by Satan. So essentially sin invaded the world, God chose Israel to try and fix it, they messed up so he sent Jesus as the last resort to snatch peoples' spirits away into his realm lest they go down in sin with the rest of the universe. So basically sin stole the universe from God and won. He wants us to leave it behind and go to where he is forever instead.

I don't believe this. I believe in the resurrection from the dead and the meeting of Heaven and earth into a new creation where sin and death are no more. I don't believe God just gave up on the universe and wants to snatch us away.

>>592295

>Why would God resurrect their dead bodies and take them to Heaven if "they" are already in Heaven to begin with? It makes no sense and I think it's a lot of garbage. Why hope for a resurrection if you believe you've already been fully redeemed when you die and your spirit goes away with God?

>So essentially sin invaded the world, God chose Israel to try and fix it, they messed up so he sent Jesus as the last resort to snatch peoples' spirits away into his realm lest they go down in sin with the rest of the universe

We invited sin into the world, it didn't invade. And God intended Christ to save us from the beginning

>So basically sin stole the universe from God and won.

Christ is the victor, He defeated sin.

>He wants us to leave it behind and go to where he is forever instead.

This is incorrect. God is going to restore creation, and Resurrection will occur because we are going to live in a restored physical world. Our Resurrection will be like Christ's in that our spirit will be reunited with our body and then glorified.

>Not open to joining Orthodox or Catholic churches, already researched them fully and disagree with many things.

care to explain or list your issues?

>>592295

I'm not sure how much detail you've gone into with eschatology with them but any type of church with "United" in the title is gonna be extremely liberal and probably make a lot of symbolization out of things whenever their feelings interfere. I wouldn't put any confidence in them. The Biblical truth from the word of God is that the resurrection of the saved is bodily, as 1 Thessalonians 4:17 already implies and as 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 spells out.

>Why would God resurrect their dead bodies and take them to Heaven if "they" are already in Heaven to begin with?

For the purpose of glorification. It's the time when all of us are brought together and take part in the first resurrection and be on earth during the millenial reign of Christ. That way we can reign on the earth, as it says:

Revelation 5:9-10

Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

2 Corinthians 4:13-14

We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Titus 2:13

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

>I linked him this video

That video is exactly the liberalism I was talking about. The man in this video counts on his audience being unaware of the Bible and all the prophetic statements about the rapture when he says 1 Thessalonians is the only one. It is not, that is an outright lie. He's hoping you don't know about any of these; Consider:

Mark 13:23-27

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Luke 17:22-30

And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

>>592306

>We invited sin

Hard to say whether I agree with this or not, as it's not a simple concept to understand exactly.

>Christ is the victor

I agree

>God will restore creation

I agree

I don't like the visual idolatry of Catholic and Orthodox. I've read all the arguments between Cath/Ortho and protestants regarding reverence of saints and Mary and the like and I believe revering images is idolatry. And it's not just the icons and statues; it's the robes, the incense, the whole liturgical ritual. I don't like it. I think they are overly caught up in and obsessed with aesthetics. Also I don't believe in the real presence.

tldr; too much pomp and ritual

>>592309

Thank you and God bless you, seems like just the book for me.

>>592308

I don't think Tom Wright is arguing against a second coming and a final judgment, just the idea that when Jesus does return and gather his elected unto himself, that they will then fly away into a spiritual plane to exist forever there, leaving the earth to be utterly destroyed.

He is saying when Christ returns to raise the dead from their graves, he and they will live and reign forever on earth, not in some spiritual realm.

>>592316

>He is saying when Christ returns to raise the dead from their graves, he and they will live and reign forever on earth, not in some spiritual realm.

Well I'm glad you seem to be close to where we are on this. And I really hope that's all he was saying, but it really sounded more like he was spiritualizing these matters and trying to explain that they are allegories that aren't literal, as well as saying that only 1 Thessalonians 4 talks about it.

Maybe he has issues with the "caught up together in the clouds" part? Because that's scriptural. The wrath of God, the two witnesses and the fall of Babylon all take place on earth after this, but before Jesus begins to reign with a rod of iron. Meanwhile we are with Him awaiting these things to unfold on earth before he will begin to reign, as it says, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Perhaps research the Lutheran view? I believe that they hold a more orthodox view of the end times (though from my experience they're kind of hands-off and don't teach on it much). Unless baptismal regeneration disqualifies them in your opinion.

>>592295

>It makes no sense

You shouldn't care if it makes sense to you, you should find it sufficient that it is the revelation of God's word.

>NT Wright

Wright's work on Pauline theology is seriously spiritually damaging. I strongly recommend against listening to Wright.

>>592331

Why would I believe a doctrine that I don't believe is true? And personally I think Wright is the greatest theologian alive.

>>592412

>Why would I believe a doctrine that I don't believe is true?

Because the bible teaches it? I believe the technical term for changing beliefs to be in conformity with scripture is "reformation"

>And personally I think Wright is the greatest theologian alive

Wow, that is so wrong for so many reasons

>>592413

>The bible teaches that we will be snatched away to Heaven forever upon Jesus' return, leaving the universe behind

Show me

>That is wrong

What don't you like about his theology?

>>592415

>Show me

I can't because the bible doesn't teach that. However, it does teach we enter into God's presence (heaven) upon death.

>What don't you like about his theology?

Well, other than everything I know about it, there's the downgrading of soteriology to some non-thing and the idea that the "life lived" will factor into the last judgement in particular.

>>592417

I agree we enter his presence upon death. What I don't believe is that that is the ultimate goal and that is redemption in itself. I don't believe the resurrection is about taking our bodies away into the spiritual realm. Christ and the resurrected righteous will reign on earth (as in Heaven, so it goes) forever. God isn't going to just leave the entire universe to be swallowed up by sin. See posts above where I discussed this with others.

I think you don't know a lot about NT Wright if you think he downgrades salvation to nothing. He isn't a universalist and he talks and writes extensively on salvation and it's meaning. He simply doesn't believe salvation is ultimately about going away to heaven when you die.

>>592419

>I agree we enter his presence upon death

The OP clearly suggests otherwise, though

<Why hope for a resurrection if you believe you've already been fully redeemed when you die and your spirit goes away with God?

How can you say something like that if you reject neither the resurrection nor heaven upon death? It sounds like criticism of at least one

>What I don't believe is that that is the ultimate goal and that is redemption in itself

I don't know of anyone who believes that

>I think you don't know a lot about NT Wright if you think he downgrades salvation to nothing. He isn't a universalist and he talks and writes extensively on salvation and it's meaning

I didn't say salvation, I said soteriology. Just look at how he ridicules the question "how do I go to heaven" in vid related

>He simply doesn't believe salvation is ultimately about going away to heaven when you die.

And nobody does. That is a strawman of the orthodox position. At least the Reformed perspective is that going to heaven is essentially a byproduct of what salvation is really about. The goal isn't heaven, it's reconciliation with God whose covenant we have broken.

>>592423

It is criticism of the idea that heaven upon death overrides a physical resurrection and that physical resurrection is just another way of saying "going to heaven" except your body goes with you for some reason.

>I don't know anyone who believes that

Baptists

I think he ridicules it so much here and elsewhere because he is sick of the "let's escape this sick old disgusting world and go into the clouds forever" ideology that is so popular in American protestantism. People who believe that way think, as I suggested, that this world is basically just won over to sin and should be left behind to rot upon the second coming. People also are less likely to worry about problems in this world i.e. starvation, homelessness, environmental destruction, illness, etc etc if they think "well we'll all go to heaven and leave this cruel place anyways." N.T. Wright doesn't dismiss going into God's presence when you die, he just doesn't think that's the whole point of it all, which is what I've been trying to get across in this thread. God so LOVED THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten son. God didn't abandon creation.

The ultimate goal is the restoration of creation to it's true purpose via the removal of sin and death. God's presence is to be fully and intimately known by all of creation after the resurrection. Sin and death and evil cast out forever. Christ reigning over the renewed world.

>>592426

>he is sick of the "let's escape this sick old disgusting world and go into the clouds forever" ideology

That's called pre-trib rapture. I know EXACTLY what you are talking about here and I can't stand it either. I am not pre-trib and we're currently rooting out that misguided view. It's an invention. See vid for documentary on this, if you care about this subject you will see what I mean by the end of this documentary.