/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

To take your example of masturbation, a physical urge should be countered with a physical urge. Famous examples of this are St Francis of Assisi rolling around naked in the snow, St Benedict of Nursia rolling in thorns and Sts Curthbert and Bernard throwing themselves into cold water to quell urges.

I'm not saying that you have to strip off and run to the nearest pond or thorn bush, but some kind of physical counter is necessary.

If you find hatred of sin burdensome, try loving the Lord more. Indeed, combine the two by thinking of Him in His sorrowful passion, how he endured the scourges and thorns for our own mortal, carnal passions. Then it will be all the easier to pray to Him and to adore Him for all that He has done.

After overcoming temptation, say to yourself "Yet not I, but the grace of God with me". Remind yourself that He watches over you in your sturggle, just like He watched over and comforted St Anthony.

Personally I can't think of any Fathers who think like you propose. I know many say hate is useful but to "weaponise" it like that seems kind of strange.

>>591460

>some kind of physical counter is necessary

That's true, but isn't fasting and moderate psychical exercise enough? I mean, it makes the urges much weaker yet it is still there somewhere in the soul. And if I see an indecent video or read a book with an (quasi)erotic scene in it, the best inside starts to move and threatens to eat my whole inner world, to crush it in one move like a goddamn house of cards that I am trying to build for a long time.

>>591467

>moderate

I don't want to get all desert fathers on you but remember, moderation is a compromise that we make living in the world. Technically we should just get shot of any affection that even slightly offends our pious sensibilities.

That said, for us, yes, fasting and exercise are good ways of controling our physical/sensual natures.

>And if I see an indecent video or read a book with an (quasi)erotic scene in it, the best inside starts to move and threatens to eat my whole inner world, to crush it in one move like a goddamn house of cards that I am trying to build for a long time.

This is unfortulately the price we must pay for our concupiscence. To quote an old saying, those urges only stop once that final nail is hammered into your coffin.

It doesn't really matter so much if your house of cards falls down, so long as you can forgive yourself and begin to built it back up again. Remember, "he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved." For the Lord's mercy is such that He doesn't ask us to do what is impossible, since He knows what we are made of. If you fall, get back up.

Forgiving yourself in particular is something that personally took me a long time to realise. This is an important step.

I must say I still don't see where hatred as a galvanising force would come into it. Maybe contempt, rather than hatred, or scorn.

>>591458

Hate is good. Hating evil and hating weakness and hating idiocy and hating faggotry, hating lies and hating deceivers, hating abusers. These are all good things.

>masturbation feels good and I want to do it

yes but it's still self-abuse and not ideal.

Can you imagine great men abusing themselves like that? Imagine Conan or Alexander the Great or Hitler resorting to "fapping" in the dark? No. It belittles you. Find a woman, take a wife. That's what they're for.

>>591471

>Imagine Conan or Alexander the Great or Hitler resorting to "fapping" in the dark

I understand the effect you're going for here, anon. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people you mention likely did it. I'm not excusing it or saying they did it habitually, but to assume that those three were above carnal desire and sin seems absurd.

Not to mention you talk about hating deceivers and faggotry and the rest. I'm going to have to agree with >>591469 when he says that perhaps a contempt towards sin, but an outright hatred towards the sinner seems misguided. If you hate that sinner, I don't see how you'll be able to help them out of their sin. How can you will the best of them and for them if you hate them outright?

>>591474

>. If you hate that sinner, I don't see how you'll be able to help them out of their sin. How can you will the best of them and for them if you hate them outright?

a person is defined by their values and actions.

if they change, and transform and are born again, then they become new people.

>>591471

>Conan or Alexander the Great or Hitler

Meh, Conan was a rapist and murderer, Alexander the Great was surrounded by sodomites and was arguably one himself, and Hitler used methamphetamine on a daily basis. I can imagine all of them masturbating and it would be the least of their spiritual problems.

>>591478

> Conan was a rapist and murderer

Conan did what needed to be done and murdering evil wizards and demons is good.

>, Alexander the Great was surrounded by sodomites and was arguably one himself,

don't fall for 'greeks approved of homosex' meme, its a libshit revision of history.

>Hitler used methamphetamine on a daily basis.

because his doctor gave him experimental cocktails without his knowledge.

> I can imagine all of them masturbating

keep your fetishes to yourself

> and it would be the least of their spiritual problems.

no it would be the greatest of their spiritual problems and i can't imagine them doing such things, Hitler was too busy and had a woman, Conan was too cold and ascetic, Alexander the great had 3 wives and was a warrior. real men don't abuse themselves, masturbation literally means self-abuse.

>>591471

Hating weakness is good, hating the weak is not. Hating idiocy is good, hating idiots is not. Hating sodomy is good, hating sodomites is not. And so on. You don't have to hate the sinners to hate their sin. And loving someone doesn't mean you have to tolerate their sinful actions.

"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you"

Also

>Great men

>Hitler

>>591486

>Hating weakness is good, hating the weak is not. Hating idiocy is good, hating idiots is not. Hating sodomy is good, hating sodomites is not. And so on.

I sort of agree, but disagree.

Some people are weak and dumb against their will due to circumstances. I don't hate them. I pity them and hope they improve.

Some are weak and idiotic by their own design and values. And I hate them, because they are embodying their values and living their beliefs. I can't separate the deeds/values from the person in such cases. There is no separation.

A person who, unironically, worships Dionysus, and gets drunk and high every weekend as a religious ritual, and then drives drunk and crashes his car into people, I hate that person, what they stand for and who they are. I don't make excuses for them or separate their identity into fragments.

But I also think anyone can transform and change and become a new person. So my hatred for them would be temporary. Also my hatred is stoic, I don't waste much energy or thoughts on them. I just value them less than normal, decent people.

>>591486

>Also

>>Great men

>>Hitler

As a man of action he was great. It's hard to find a greater modern figure than Hitler. Not saying he was perfect or a christian role model…but people don't have to be christian to be fantastic in certain fields and have admirable qualities.

>>591486

>Hating sodomy is good, hating sodomites is not.

Romans 1:24-2:2

There more you hate your own sinful actions the more you will stay away from it. That is righteous hatred and should be practiced. Our God loves us but he also hates evil so there is no friction to be had.

Agreed; wrath is a tool, even if one which is difficult to use properly.

>>591458

I cannot overcome temptation under some circumstances. For example, when I'm stressed. In such cases, I prefer to masturbate and later pray and ask for pardon. I know that is not the best way but I'm too weak.

I prefer to sin that to be temped without end.

>>591647

1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."

There's no such thing as an irresistible temptation. You CAN escape, brother. Pray and find a method to fight the urge. I've mostly succeeded and am continually getting better despite my own weakness.

You can't just go on willfully sinning instead of bearing your cross. It goes blatantly against Christ and everything you should stand for as a Christian.

>>591617

Listen to this guy >>591829 but also to make your life easier, if a certain circumstance is making you weak to temptation, then you would do well to try and avoid being in that circumstance. You need to tackle the issue of masturbating, but it would be very wise to also tackle the issue of you getting really stressed out before or at the same time.

OP reporting.

So I experimented a bit and the results are following. I can fight off the temptations for the next couple hours with what I call "ira sacra" but the moment the temptation flees it leaves empty space in my soul. If that space remains empty it will be filled with things that might be even worse than sexual desire e.g. envy or even pride. So the soul has to be filled with Jesus. In that conjunction it works very well. There is the algorithm:

1. You feel temptation

2. You recognize it's sinister

3. You separate it from you e.g. I visualize a ugly demon who is forcing me to fornicate on a rotting corpse (the more graphic the better)

4. You cast spiritual fireball at him in the name of Jesus and all the Saints and your will evaporate this sinister feeling from your soul

5. You read the Jesus Prayer till you feel inner peace again. Note: only do it with humble heart as if you did fornicate with the corpse and now begging for forgiveness. IMPORTANT: always thank the Lord for saving you this time, because it is him who did most of the job.

The issue is - I am now sure this is a good practice. Maybe I am in tens layers of prelest and fooling myself. Are there any signs of me doing harm to my soul with that?

>>591462

Anderson with the rebound!

>>591478

>Meh, Conan was a rapist and murderer

He was a murderer, but not a rapist. Reading some of the books, it looks like he only killed in self defense, or to stop a possible threat before it could become one, and didn't rape. He was lustful and hedonistic, but it was all consensual.

>>592342

Baptists go up to people from house to house and convince them to "get saved"

>>591489

Is drunk driving really the most wicked thing you can think of?

Amerifats kill me.

I’m honestly interested in this, you got more

>>591458

> I hope all of us Christians agree that hate is a feeling or state that is part of our human nature and that we should use it in certain situations as a weapon against sin or evil. I mean, a healthy Christian psyche should immediately start to hate evil e.g. when we see injustice.

👍

>But if I am the one committing the sin. I can't hate myself because that would give me nothing, be counterproductive.

There is not a sin in the world that I am not personally responsible for in some way. Regardless of who the agent is, I must approach these sins the same way. I am sorry. I am disgusted with myself. By my own power, nothing will change, so God please make me holier.

>So I theoretically should hate my sin. But how can I express my hate if I e.g. want to masturbate very badly? All the ascetic literature for laity I've read so far concentrates in this case on how I should pray it away.

Better to pray incessantly at all hours of the day, with or without temptation. Then when temptations spring up, they serve only as a reminder to pray more fervently.

>Of course, it is also stated that I should separate myself from the sin, but isn't hate "the spiritual blade" meant for that? I've noticed that while I artificially stimulate the hateful emotions and direct it against the sinful desire I feel this strange inner strength and calmness but I do not feel that inner peace that normally follows after I overcome the temptation. And it is nearly impossible to hate sin and to pray to our Lord and Savior Jesus at the same time because, for me, praying without humility in the heart is physically painful because I feel nothing at all. How can one keep in soul these two feelings: hate against the sin and humility before God at the same time? Is it even possible?

On the contrary, it's impossible to love Christ without hating sin. Sin is missing the mark, it's anything that drives a wedge between ourselves and God. So how can you love God without at the same time hating that which drives you away from Him?