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File: aa13ac53eb0f173⋯.png (300.08 KB, 748x393, 748:393, 758bbbc9d40646e775d702d204….png)

67c183 No.591265

As you anons can tell from my flag, I am a Catholic. What I am facing however, as I'm sure you other Catholic anons have before, is the problem of legitimacy of the Catholic Church. I know of the verse where Jesus tells Peter that he is the rock upon which Christ will build his Church, but does that really signify the Church that we see today? Is Francis an illegitimate pope? Ratzinger stepped down, and we all know that makes Francis' papacy null. Should I become a tradcath? I am having many problems with faith guys, and I was hoping some of you would help clear things up.

Anyone is welcome.

Thanks.

f582e4 No.591269

If you believe the Papacy is right, and that now you have an illegitimate Pope, you believe that the Gates of Hell prevailed against the Church. You either abandon one or the other belief they cannot coexist.


67c183 No.591272

>>591269

That's the issue I'm having. I don't think the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church. It will go through some rough patches definitely.


7fca9d No.591278

File: 9e1ee0fd4e30faa⋯.jpg (2.42 MB, 1818x2593, 1818:2593, 9e1ee0fd4e30faae48874f95fa….jpg)

>>591265

>Is Francis an illegitimate pope?

No.

If you want to avoid having to deal woth scrupulosity about the matter, remember that you have almost no education in theology and absolutely no education in canon law, and so should rather trust the overwhelming consensus of actual, professional canon lawyers than your scruples, in the same way in which when faced with a physics problem you can safely trust a physics textbook written by professional physicists, even when it contradicts with your uninformed opinions (I'm assuming here that you know nothing about physics; if you do, use an analogical example).

>Ratzinger stepped down, and we all know that makes Francis' papacy null.

It doesn't, which is why the canon law makes provisions for such a case. Also, it's not the first time this happens, see for example St. Celestine V.

I'm actually curious, where did you get this thought that a pope stepping down makes hos successor invalid?

>Should I become a tradcath?

There is a difference between being a traditional Catholic and a schismatic. The first simply means that you are attached to pre-VII traditions, and there is nothing wrong about it. Sedevacantists are a rather small subset of them; and sedevacantism is indeed evil, since it puts you in schism and outside the Church.


67c183 No.591279

>>591278

I don't know man, that's why I asked this question. I want to be saved.


bd3feb No.591282

>>591265

>from Eastern Catholic to TradCath

What about you stop LARPing and actually live out your faith and the active tradition you belong to?


67c183 No.591283

>>591282

There's no need to lash out. As you can visibly tell, I am going through a "faith situation", where I don't know what is right anymore.


bd3feb No.591284

>>591283

Your bishop acting dumb or not should not be sufficient to shatter your spiritual life. I said "LARPing" because I've literally never heard of an Eastern Catholic, of any rite, becoming a trad Cath (which usually means Latin, since Eastern Catholics are already super traditional) over the Pope misbehaving.

But, to get off my high horses and address your concerns directly…

You've had Popes who were literally heretics before (such as Honorius being a monophysite and monothelite, or John XXII rejecting the beatific vision). And if you want to know what it looks like when Popes really misbehave, take a look at the pornocracy. This should boost your confidence in Pope Francis.


67c183 No.591285

>>591284

Thank you.


a5af00 No.591286

I can imagine myself living in hard times, when antipopes existed or when some schism was not correctly treated. And the Church healed and continued. So it's a bit of waiting.


14b0ab No.591294

File: 6937e4f60ab484d⋯.jpeg (65.51 KB, 1483x1500, 1483:1500, Padre-Amorth.jpeg)

>>591265

I was raised Catholic, but I left Catholicism for Islam when I was younger. I recently came back to Catholicism during the pontificate of Pope Francis and quite frankly mostly due to him. I consider myself as a "traditional" minded Catholic.

What makes you think he's an illegitimate pope?


67c183 No.591297

>>591294

>What makes you think he's an illegitimate pope?

I don't know man. I see all these theories claiming Francis is a commie and is illegitimate because Ratzinger stepped down. In all honesty I used this thread to clear my mind a bit and to just spew out my thoughts.

>I recently came back to Catholicism during the pontificate of Pope Francis and quite frankly mostly due to him

What about Francis brought you back?


de284a No.591298

What would have to happen for a Catholic to say that the gates of hell have prevailed over your organization, and therefore it must be an illegitimate one? Honest question.


192f6a No.591299

>>591278

>you have almost no education in theology and absolutely no education in canon law

This might be true but addressing rising concerns about the faltering faith of individuals with an appeal to ignorance about the inner workings of an order solves nothing.

What steps would be necessary for one to be acquainted with the Canon aw?


67c183 No.591300

>>591298

The Church dissolves? I don't know.


de284a No.591307

>>591300

What would that look like?

Rome wiped off the map? Occupied by some devilish kingdom? Would every last Catholic have to disappear/denounce/die?


67c183 No.591309

>>591307

>Occupied by some devilish kingdom?

This seems like the most plausible situation. Like I said, it hasn't happened before, so I have no idea.


14b0ab No.591311

File: b6ff1497ebecf98⋯.jpg (247.05 KB, 620x428, 155:107, 16.jpg)

>>591297

>I see all these theories claiming Francis is a commie

Where do they come from? The anti-theist media, the Protestants, the Sedevacantists, etc. Give me any specific doubts or articles you have about him and I'll show you that it's just slander. I used to belong to the /pol/ type crowd that would happily call him a cuck or whatever, but if you dig deeper, you'll truly see how many people try to discredit him. They do it in a very sneaky way, too, usually by taking a snippet of his homilies in Italian and using botchy translations to make their own agendas.

Pope Francis said:

>“Look, I wrote an encyclical, true enough, it was a big job, and an Apostolic Exhortation, I'm permanently making statements, giving homilies; that's teaching. That's what I think, not what the media say that I think.” (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1750350-pope-francis-god-has-bestowed-on-me-a-healthy-dose-of-unawareness)

>“[S]ome people are always afraid because they don’t read things properly, or they read some news in a newspaper, an article, and they don’t read what the synod decided, what was published. What was worthwhile about the synod? The post synodal connection and the Pope’s address. That is definitive.” (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1750351-the-synod-on-the-family-the-divorced-and-remarried-seem-excommunicated)

http://www.historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/pope-francis-is-no-liberal-24-examples.html

> illegitimate because Ratzinger stepped down

Popes in the past have stepped down and it is possible for bishops to step down. Papa Benedict stepped down due to his declining health and he probably wanted to avoid having a last few years in the papacy like Saint JPII where nothing much is done due to his declining health.

>In all honesty I used this thread to clear my mind a bit and to just spew out my thoughts.

That's always good, buddy. We're here for you. Have you thought about talking to your priest about some of your concerns? They're going to be much more qualified than any of us here.

>What about Francis brought you back?

His pastoral approach. It got me looking into Catholic media again and that got me interested in Catholicism. I started reading through some Catholic apologetics after that and here I am.

A few misguided traditionalists might hate him (because the media does try to portray him as a liberal commie marxist lol), but he's a good priest. I'm not the only one who was brought back, I personally know two Catholics from this board that came back due to him (one from Protestantism and another from atheism).

>>591298

I mean, it's literally impossible to happen.


7f4a8c No.591312

>>591265

>Is Francis an illegitimate pope? Ratzinger stepped down, and we all know that makes Francis' papacy null.

Only if the resignation was forced would this be true. There is no clear evidence of that so until then Francis is the Pope.


67c183 No.591321

File: 051d78f4790d508⋯.jpg (116.21 KB, 612x612, 1:1, 1516369814536.jpg)

>>591312

Thanks.

>>591311

Thanks man, a lot.

>Give me any specific doubts or articles you have about him and I'll show you that it's just slander.

Pic related. The people (I believe of Bolivia or Chile, not sure) made it.


77aebe No.591329

File: fff9b5c741404a5⋯.pdf (3.21 MB, historyofthebaptists Volum….pdf)

>>591265

Come Home brother.


67c183 No.591340

>>591329

I don't know man.


0101ec No.591342

File: 16b8d51fcc241a4⋯.jpg (133.38 KB, 612x612, 1:1, 051d78f4790d508bee03cbd1bf….jpg)

File: ca301d17af499fe⋯.jpg (118.03 KB, 600x499, 600:499, 719_Che-02.jpg)

>>591321

Do these people look like Catholics to you?

Just in this picture I see a jew, a commie and a nu-male (probably commie as well). And of couse the a Hindu god comes right behind.

It's a well know tactic to smear popular and problematic leaders, associate them with what their followers hate.

This was done in an Italian carnival.


7fca9d No.591347

>>591340

Read literally anything about the early Church history if you want to refute this book. Starting with the Apostolic Fathers, especially Ignatius of Antioch, is a good idea.


67c183 No.591355

>>591347

Anything else I could read that can further cement my faith? What I believe is really making me question the Catholic faith is that these popes, these vicars of Christ on Earth, can take part in degenerate behaviors and heathenness, such as Honorious among others.


a55bdd No.591358

>>591294

>I was raised Catholic, but I left Catholicism for Islam when I was younger

How is that even possible?


e34d31 No.591365

>>591294

>islam

What the fuck? Are you Euro?


7fca9d No.591370

File: 7aba60ba743fb17⋯.jpg (212.75 KB, 575x800, 23:32, Het_Baldakijn_van_Bernini_….jpg)

>>591355

Carroll's History of Christendom series is a good introduction, although sometimes outdated, especially as regards OT times. Catholic Encyclopedia has a lot of extremely useful information.

>these popes, these vicars of Christ on Earth, can take part in degenerate behaviors and heathenness

Being a "Vicar of Christ" is the function of their office, but how well a particular pope is going to fare as one depends only on his free will. He can either decide to do what God requires of His office and lead the Church, or He can ignore his role and act against the purpose of said office; that the pope is personally a sinner isn't an argument against Catholicism.


d5b7ec No.591371

>>591365

>t. amerimutt

There's literally no islamic conversion going on in Europe. Islam spreads purely by sword and birth rate.


67c183 No.591620

>>591370

Thanks.

>Being a "Vicar of Christ" is the function of their office, but how well a particular pope is going to fare as one depends only on his free will. He can either decide to do what God requires of His office and lead the Church, or He can ignore his role and act against the purpose of said office; that the pope is personally a sinner isn't an argument against Catholicism.

Doing this though really tarnishes the image of the Church. For example, when JPII held the Day of Peace, where all religions of the world came together near the Basilica and started praying together to the gods of their respective religion, isn't that considered highly heretical? I mean, I found it to be that way.


c992ff No.591637

>>591297

> I see all these theories claiming Francis is a commie

Everyone and their mother is a 'commie' and if they're not they're a 'racist'. Don't let culture war bullshit influence your religious beliefs.


c992ff No.591638

>>591311

> I'm not the only one who was brought back, I personally know two Catholics from this board that came back due to him (one from Protestantism and another from atheism).

Count me as the third. I was protestant as a kid (the denominations that shake and shout, forgot the exact name), became an atheist around the age of 12, and now at the age of 22 I'm reading the bible again and preparing to join the Catholic Church.


67c183 No.591640

>>591637

Fair enough, how do you explain these then?

https://pastebin.com/jkSzCMVm


c992ff No.591642

>>591640

Well there's the whole thing where Vatican II literally can't be invalid because it's just a council made by the Church. Just like new laws and constitutional amendments aren't 'invalid' because they change old rules in a government because no shit that's the entire purpose of making new laws and amendments just like that's the entire purpose of having a new council meeting.


17f603 No.591645

>>591371

Not true: there are converts; even in my native Italy, young folks who have grown tired of soft Catholic faith and prefer a radically violent one.


7fca9d No.591693

>>591640

This is literally hours worth of material. Do you have any specific point you want to discuss?

>>591620

It does, but it's an argument against the particular person that is the pope, not against the office of the pope itself. It shows that this person is incompetent in doing his job, not that the job itself is pointless.


ef6598 No.591739

>>591307

>>591298

Well technically it's the gates of hades, which means the Church will never die. If there ceases to be any bishops left then that would mean the church is dead for the Church exists with the bishop.


67c183 No.591756

>>591693

>This is literally hours worth of material. Do you have any specific point you want to discuss?

Yes, sorry. What is it about Vatican II that makes it so distasteful that some Catholic are converting to become tradcaths? Are sedevacantists, such as the Dimond brothers, schismatics?

>

It does, but it's an argument against the particular person that is the pope, not against the office of the pope itself. It shows that this person is incompetent in doing his job, not that the job itself is pointless.

I see now. Thanks.

>>591642

Ah.




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