/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Faith

teleological argument

>>587704

https://youtube.com/watch?v=A0iDNLxmWVM

Also first 30 minutes of this:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z0tyVdnIU9A

Thanks for the replies so far, guys. I'll actually read/watch them, like I said I am not a troll.

Also, how did you guys get a chan? They seem a little seedy for Christianity.

>>587719

pol spillover

lots of us realized there's more to life than meets the eye, and being a degenerate or fedora is myopic and self-defeating in the longrun

Do you guys know why we don't see any magic/miracles like Moses staff turning into a snake anymore?

>>587731

I may be wrong, Moses may not have turned his staff into a snake but I remember this from a story I had watched at Catholic school. I think there was some magic/miracle associated with the story.

A better question may have been why we don't see things like the biblical plagues in the USSR. So, why don't we?

>>587719

Most of us came here after we outgrew 4chan.

I'm going to post a few channels that you could check out which might help you out in your journey.

God bless you! I will definitely be praying for you.

(1) Bishop Barron (https://www.youtube.com/user/wordonfirevideo/videos)

(2) Father Ripperger (https://www.youtube.com/user/onearmsteve4192/videos)

(3) Father Schmitz (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVdGX3N-WIJ5nUvklBTNhAw/videos)

(4) (https://www.youtube.com/user/catholiccom/featured)

>>587731

https://www.messengerofpadrepio.com/testimony

>>587734

Nah, that story is in there. There's a couple stories similar to that actually. Moses confronting pharoh's magicians, Aaron's staff blooming, and Moses creating the symbol of the bronze serpent in the desert as a way to heal from snake bites.

There's lots of history of miracles in the Catholic/Orthodox churches, read those if you are interested. Not really sure why we don't see more society-wide miracles, though you could say that the Marian apparitions are the closest things we have

>>587704

Take a look at some of William Lane Craig's work, he has a five-point cumulative case that I find quite compelling. Also read Lee Strobel's "Case for" books, starting with The Case for Christ, or at least watch a lecture of his.

Depending on the type of person you are, C.S. Lewis might be really helpful for you. Mere Christianity would be a good starting point on that front. If you don't want to buy it yet, the YouTube channel C.S. Lewis Doodles has a good portion of it for free.

That's about all I've got on the top of my head, but I'll keep thinking about it. I may even make a playlist on YouTube you can watch so that you don't have to go searching for anything.

>>587737

So why did he get cancer in the first place?

>>587704

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)

>>587740

Because everyone can get cancer.

>>587744

Isn't that a shitty way for God to run things?

>>587747

Trials such as cancer are tests for the righteous and punishments for the wicked.

If you've got some time, the first book of City of God by St. Augustine covers this topic.

>>587747

Read the Book of Job

In it Job, a faithful man, has his entire family murdered, his property plundered, and his health stolen from him, and even when he never questions his faith he wonders the exact same question.

>>587731

>>587734

From a non-Catholic perspective(and therefore one that's more skeptical of Marian apparitions), I'll just say that there are reasons we should not expect to see miracles like that anymore:

A) the stories of Moses and the other prophets, as well as of Jesus, took place at times that were very important to the history of the Church. It was vital, for example, that the Israelites be freed at that time, and that the gods of Egypt should be publicly toppled so that the Israelites could be taken seriously, and not simply be seen as runaway slaves. Modern times aren't anything like that, since Christianity is already the most well known and well regarded religion out there, and God has no plans to shake things up anymore until the end-times.

Which brings me to

B) The work of salvation is already done. That was the climax of the story, and the thing that the Old Testament miracles were ultimately building to. The nation of Israel is no more, and the Kingdom of God is now not at all of this world. There's no need to advance the spiritual kingdom except by works of the spirit, which are a rather different sort of miracle.

You might read C.S. Lewis' book, Miracles, or listen to any of a number of philosophers and theologians on the subject. This has been a big subject of debate and interest since the rise of deism, so there's no shortage of material here.

>>587749

What you're suggesting here is called "The Problem of Evil", or "The Problem of Suffering". Aquinas, Craig, and Lewis have all talked about this at length. It's also a really common subject in Christian literature. I'll be sure to get you something good on this subject in the playlist I'm making.

Until then, though, I'll just say that it should be much more important to you whether God exists than whether you like His methods or not. If He does exist, then He knows better than you what He's doing. If He doesn't, then it doesn't matter at all how much you like Him. Arguments like "if God's so great and loving, then why is the world so terrible" are appeals to your emotion rather than to your intellect.

>>587754

Meant for >>587747 and not >>587749

>>587704

I was a hard-on atheist in my teens, and I used to reject that the things that we can't observe exist.

Then I discovered philosophy and developed my thoughts on God:

1. We can't observe God because he is a metaphysical entity, humans simply have no senses to observe him. This doesn't mean that he doesn't exist.

2. Many atheists belive that something cannot come from nothing, and come with shit like "who created God then". They simply can't comprehend that God is an entity beyond time, the dimension of time we humans exist in simply doesn't exist for God (time may be a realm God created for humans, he created day and night you know, it might symbolize the creation of time). Time is a human concept, God is eternal.

Correct me if I'm wrong anons, I'm only a recent convertee.

>>587704

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyEkckjvnaASJ_JDZAGKQc3Yy7yonz01H

Alright, playlist is up, but not finalized. For now you've got two hours worth.

If you need some more, there's always

C.S. Lewis Doodles

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9boiLqIabFgjeaTcx_LLsXrguKfeqLmn

Pints with Aquinas

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyEkckjvnaAS08uLGsqztGbsPOHiXb7Qv

Reasonable Faith podcast

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIpO3BUiq2IFH2ab_zfprsDZi2VTsEc9N

Just look through those playlists and see if anything catches your eye.

Thanks guys, I really am trying.

>>587751

I've read the book of Job, and I still think it's, quite frankly, shitty on God to allow Satan to harm Job and his family.

>>587926

I'm not trying to offend you guys.

>>587926

You have to understand the morality of why it's bad for us but not for God to cause these kinds of things. God is the one who actually created us, all he would do is to stop supplying our every need and we will be in a bad situation, no matter what. Does God owe it to us to keep us going or is it his right to decide how much he will give us? And if He is all-loving to the point of sacrificing His only begotten Son on the cross for us to die for us while we were still his enemies, doesn't that tell you anything about whether He can be trusted to do what is best for you, if that is what He said would do? If God can create the entire world in its pre-corrupted state, can He not also handle justice for every man that ever lived, even ones that had to go through things like this? That's what we're asked to believe.

1 Peter 4:12-14

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Read ths book of John in King James Version. John was written to gget oeople to believe

John 20:31

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

>>587926

From an atheistic perspective I can understand why, but from a Christian perspective, nothing Job lost was gone forever. Not only did he get new wealth and family, but his old family would still ultimately be in heaven.

>t. Still new to this myself

>>587704

Question is, do you want to live in a universe with objective morality? Or one in which morality is relative? Once you choose the former, then it is a matter of choosing which system you think is the right one. Christianity, or Islam, Hinduism and spinoffs thereof that are all based on works salvation.

>>589667

>Christianity, or Islam, Hinduism and spinoffs thereof that are all based on works salvation.

You know I'm not a Baptist but even I know that's like 99.9% false.

>>587704

Look at the prophesy written about Christ ~1000-700 years before His birth.

See Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 especially, and also look at this story that occurred 1500 years before

https://beliefmap.org/jesus-shines/isaac-prefigures-jesus

OP, check out Shroud of Turin. (we should really make an infographic or a screenshot about this one for newfriends)

>>587704

http://textuploader.com/dlrfw

Well OP, it's not a reason, but I've enjoyed this video's story

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DakEcY7Z5GU&list=PLuXxHEHGRVu-EuNW3i-dbh7ucXr0lDzFr

and the channel in general. The guy is currently on a bit of an anti-Islam crusade due to the way they treated his close ex-Muslim convert friend when he fell ill and died, but the information is interesting and he presents some good information in some of the debates and Atheism/Christianity videos.

I fell away from the Church and was by most measures and atheist for most of my life. last year I felt a rising darkness to the world which is supposedly experiencing "progress" and started looking for a church that felt largely unchanged. I found a local Orthodox church, attended, and felt a real presence there that I had never felt in any other church. It's hard to describe and I won't offer any rational argument, because the experience of God's energies is decidedly NOT rational.

Suffice it to say that after several experiences last year, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that God exists, but I can't put that into a rational argument and if you want "scientific proof" you will never find it, and upon examination you will find that your desire for such is also an untenable condition when taken to the standard most atheists hold for proof of Christianity.

Start your own search, research all that you can historically, read the Bible, attend several churches and ask the priest/pastor serious questions and qualms you have until you have the same experience as me, or find a church that can answer your questions. Until then, all of us will pray that you find the true faith, and that Christ leads you back to Him and accepts you warmly as the Prodigal.

God Bless, anon.

>>589694

Are you implying Christ's sacrifice for us wasn't a work of salvation?

>>589970

No, I'm simply implying that whether or not we accept our salvation is not founded on works alone. Works are necessary because to not work is to not allow the Holy Spirit to work in you, and indeed all sacraments and all repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit, but faith will always be the key as our Baptists friends are quick to cite.

"Yet when I preach the gospel, I have no reason to boast, because I am obligated to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!" -1 Corinthians 9:16

>>587704

If you are still here, check out the "What is God" thread. We are formulating a description to eradicate the muh sky fairy meme.

I'm still here. I just haven't been posting until now.

>>587704

There's an astounding amount of historical evidence for Jesus. Of course, this shouldn't be the basis of faith, but it's certainly a good starting point.

>>590164

why do you think evolution and big bang is false? where do you get this claim? has this claim been debated?

Keep an open mind. Arguments and evidence are nice as far as they go, and some of them sort of work, but it's very easy to come up with reasons to reject any particular reason to believe. Be open to the possibility of a transformation for reasons you can't necessarily articulate or transfer to others.

>>588735

>but from a Christian perspective, nothing Job lost was gone forever

This is it exactly. Nothing of this world can ultimately harm us unless we use it as an excuse to reject God.

>>587704

Faith can't start with the mind, it has to start with the heart. Start walking the path that Christ calls us to, and read some scripture every day. If you walk the path with your heart, full belief will follow. The main Greek word for faith in the NT, pisteuo, is a verb, not a noun.

t. Former atheist

>>588735

Do you know what it's like to be killed? I nearly know, my ex tried to kill me unprovoked once. It's one of the worst things ever. You just turn off. God allowed those people to turn off. That's evil.

>>593678

>This is it exactly. Nothing of this world can ultimately harm us unless we use it as an excuse to reject God.

Uh, what? knifes can hurt you regardless of your beliefs of God. Are you really this blind?

>>587926

To quote a popular satirist, you don't believe in God because he's *Mean*?

>>593683

No. I'd resist God because he's mean. I strictly believe based on evidence. I want to know if he's real.

>>593680

> You just turn off.

Depending on which Christian you ask, the answer to this is either "No, you don't" or "It's not permanent". Either one solves the issue.

Your basic problem is that not only are you trying to judge the actions of God, you are trying to judge the actions of God assuming a worldview that assumes He doesn't exist–of course you're going to get absurd results. If God as described the story of Job exists, then death isn't the end, and so allowing those deaths isn't the heinous evil that it would seem to be in an atheist's worldview.

>>590164

Going for the "proving literal interpretation of Genesis creation account" angle is the absolute worst strategy one can take in trying to convert an atheist.

Whether every stage of creation was ex nihilo and took place over six literal days, or a process that took much longer after a single ex nihilo event (Psalm 90 and 2 Peter both attest that a "day" is essentially a meaningless term when referring to anything relating to God) is far less important than the idea that He alone through the Son (his Word) created all that is visible and invisible, that he wants us to share in eternity with Him, but we are separated from Him by our doing as a species. And of course that He would later become man to bridge the gap with us and lead us to salvation

>>593687

Could I judge the actions of God as good?

>>593690

You can start by considering the actions of God assuming Christianity is true, rather than assuming they happen in isolation in a world where God otherwise doesn't exist.

>>593691

How about I go with he correct way to think and assume nothing is true instead of viewing them through a paradigm.

>>593694

Oh and by the way, don't give me any of that, "well, the apostles could've just lied."

WHAT WOULD THEY HAVE TO GAIN

WHY WOULD THEY EVER DO THAT

>>593694

I don't believe in God, yet I find joy in things.

I think if we were giving the reasons for God's actions we would understand them better.

And yes, this is/was OP.

And despite what you may think I am really trying to find evidence for God. Especially if it could not be construed as something else.

>>593696

They would gain famousness and a populace that did what they are told, probably among other things.

>>593696

I once considered making a religion for my own gain. I would have lied but said everything that I lied about is true.

>>593694

>What he's saying, i believe, is that the knife cannot take away our joy, faith, or salvation unless we stop believing in God because of it. Even if we (((die))), we are promised eternal life and communion with God

Yes, that's what I mean.

>>593695

I'm not asking you to believe any of this yet. I'm asking you to check if God's actions line up with your moral intuitions in a hypothetical world where Christianity's metaphysical claims are true. You tried doing it using your own view of what death is, which makes no sense because no one believes in a world where both God allowed the death of Job's family and death is the permanent end of consciousness. You have to evaluate the whole system, rather than trying to integrate it piece by piece into your own system.

>>593698

>>593697

All of the Apostles but one were martyred for their faith. If they were trying to gain power or wealth in this world, it was a spectacularly bad plan.

>>593702

Okay, no they do not line up from what I remember. But I will continue to think on it as I read scripture.

>>593703

I, no lie, would have died to see my plan come to fruition. Even if it died a few years after my death.

>>593698

>>593697

Alright, I know that you aren't trying to make us mad, but I'm a bit mad.

What they got was death. An easily avoidable death.

The difference between your consideration and their situation was the Jewish and Roman authorities that would put them to death if they professed Christianity and thus broke the Pax Deorum.

They could've totally said that Jesus was a cool rabbi. They could've said he was a god separate from the jewish god. Either of those totally viable options would've not gotten them killed and would've still gotten them a sizable following. Instead they said the one thing that does get them killed. they wouldn't say that unless it were true.

Secondly, God does explain himself. He shows the whole scope of the earth to job to help him understand. He sends His Holy Spirit to help us understand in mundane life, but people normally try to tune him out because they hate God.

Here's a question for you: what do you find joy in? Does that joy last indefinitely?

I'm praying for you. Please forgive my anger.

>>593706

Why?

>>593708

Oh I don't mind. I understand if you guys get mad at me. You're presumably my human brother, you can consider yourself forgiven.

I find joy in marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, the smiles of people, being good, sex, friendship and probably a few other things. While they don't last indefinitely, they also didn't while I was a Christian. And I think, but do not know, that they will continue to give me joy as I use/whatever them.

>>593709

It was, if it came to fruition as I saw, (which it wouldn't but I could only hope) a universal religion including all peoples and their gods and religious ideas (I'll actually give you the spiel later) and a quest to understand the nature of reality, among other things that I cannot remember. I had the idea to test everything, with the manpower of the world behind me. Like, instead of producing the gasoline engine first, we would have completely figured out what it does to us, the environment and as many things as we could, and then once we saw it as safe we would actually put it "on the market". There was also the idea of people all working together (without money) and sharing everything they needed.

>>593711

I can understand if you judge me for my drug use, but I hope you will not.

>>593709

Even the dead religions would be included.

>>593680

>God allowed those people to turn off. That's evil.

>Hey dude did you give us free will?

>Yeah I did.

>Okay but what if I, huhh, piss on your lawn

>You'll still have free will

>But what if I try to stab you

>I gave you actual free will, why are you asking me this?

>BUT WHAT IF

Please help

>>593711

>>593712

I will not judge you on your drug use, not because it is good, but because all people, me especially, sin. It would not be just to say that I should not be judged and you should. However, I must say that your habits are simply unwise, and I encourage you in the future to turn away from substance abuse.

I regret to inform you that you have listed many pleasures and maybe one joy. Pleasures are worldly experiences, and are temporary. These would be your drugs and sex. Friendship and being good are a step closer to joy, but they aren't quite there. True joy is in knowing God and accepting his mercy. That is the joy that Christianity increases. It would be awfully silly if it increased the pleasure of drugs.

>>593709

There was the idea of building infrastructure in poorer countries, as this is, I assume, is very hard for them to do without money. You know, like building the way we did around 10,000 B.C. without money. The main concern with this being how much resource you have, not how much money you have.

>>587704

>But I need some reason to believe in God.

You get to hang out with a jewish teacher for all eternity after you die.

Unlike the heathens who travel the eight worlds and live an afterlife of adventure while your kinsmen that want you to go astray get their eyes burned out in Hel, of course.

>>593719

Why do you believe in paganism, then?

>>593724

He probably thinks it's cool. I think it's cool.

Also,

So fire is generally associated with Satan. Fire is a thing that can be good and can be bad. Is this saying Satan can be good? Kind of a shitty analogy if you ask me.

>>593714

I don't see what you're trying to say.

>>593709

This one is also rather selfish, but I wanted to be like Jim Edward Baker. But if I got my wish I would never hurt any of my followers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ms7YTCh10&list=PLX8EMVXNdnwquTXfm7k1Qure8BtqYwKSP

>>593742

But I wouldn't have gotten to enjoy that if I were dead.

>>593724

>Why do you believe in paganism, then?

Because it survived despite 2000 years of "complete domination and conquest" by Christianity.

Without any Bible or anyhing (The Eddas were distributed over Europe like a Bible).

It sustains itself by virtue of nature itself.

Christianity needs constant mending and "reminding" and could only survive relatively unchanged outside of Europe, where the real gods live.

A reason why Christianity is so fractured. If Islam had tried the same then we'd have hundreds of denominations for that one, and Islam slipping away just like Christianity is today, as well.

It cannot survive in the lands, by the people that are filled with the real, actual spirituality, the real gods, the real deities.

Deities that don't need the constant overcoat of Christianity, which has such incredible troubles sticking.

2000 years is nothing in the human timeline.

Saints, customs, philosophies, they're all coated with a Christian varnish, but it's about as stable as washable marker scrawling on a whiteboard.

>>593747

>It sustains itself by virtue of nature itself.

As in, there's always going to be harvest deities, thundergods, personifications of death, things like that.

It's very unlikely that someone who perceives a thunderclap will write a copy of the Bible without having it heard before.

>>593747

Oh look, it's THAT pagan poster. Once again you are applying incredibly low standards to judge paganism and incredibly high standards to judge Christianity. That's the only way you guys can come across as looking good. Western paganism doesn't exist, outside of a small collection of hippies and neckbeards. Even on this website full of nazi larpers, all your boards are dead. The best you guys have got is /fringe/.

>>593747

*slurps*

Oh, I have a question. Does anybody here hold Yahweh's word above Jesus's, or is it the opposite?

>>593747

>Because it survived despite 2000 years of "complete domination and conquest" by Christianity.

Except it didn't. Evola explained why Western pagan traditions are no longer valid: they don't have an unbroken chain of priestly initiations. Any Westerner who claims to be a pagan is larping without exception.

>>593807

Yeah, by the edge of a sword. That's not what Christ teaches.

>>593797

You know, the Al Jilwad survives to this day. Maybe Paganism will rise up again.

>>593817

Oh, of course I will. You must be God.

Also, that's not very Christian. I suggest you rethink what you said, you all trying to be an edgelord Christfag.

>>593808

>paganism so stronk it survived 2000 years of Christian oppression

>Mean Christians wiped out our tradition by force

This is why no one takes you seriously, paganism is just something you have thought up with your mind. Any divine truth in it is only a consequence of being blessed with the image of God

>>593817

Also, wouldn't you die for God? Or are you just saying I'm a weaker person without knowing me? You Christians for all your talk are not very wise. Not very wise indeed.

>>593747

>The Eddas were distributed over Europe like a Bible

Except they were entirely oral tradition until Snorri Sturlson (a Christian) wrote them down, long after the last bastion of Norse paganism (Iceland) was Christianized. There were still pockets of pagans in the remote fringes of Norway and Iceland, but Snorri was about as far from them as you could get

>>593822

As >>593820 pointed out, there is no "holy scripture" of Germanic paganism and there is no such thing as a true Germanic religion that we know of beyond poems and vague descriptions of the Eddas as well as sagas about Icelandic kings in the Heimskringla. Infact, what people nowadays promote as the "old ways" or "faith of muh ancestors" is a (partially) occultic revival and reinvention of what people back in the day thought of was Germanic paganism. That is also something mildly implemented in theosophy, which was made up by Helen Blavatsky.

Matter of fact: Beyond what Christians preserved (which isn't much, especially when it comes to real religious customs) is not even a fraction of what people do nowadays that call themselves "Germanic pagans" or "Asatru" and the like. It's literally a huge portion of ethnically (i.e. ethnically - as in "nazi ethnically") and occultly loaded nonsense. That is to say that not all these people are bad. They infact do have one or the other great idea (i.e. for example from the Havamal when it comes to virtue and hospitality) but they simply do not have the full truth, not even the smaller part of it.

And last but not least is it simply wrong to call it the "faith of the ancestors". Especially when you're European or of European descent. The religion of the ancestors was for almost 1700 years Christianity, and no copout a´ la "but they were forced" will change that. There's a reason why it's mostly held by some variation of "nazi" or "muh white race" type people. It becomes worse if you consider some of the customs [of which there is no first-hand witness anyway as stated before] like for example the Blót. Not even the revivalists know what it is. "A sacrifice to the gods". But in which way ? It ranged from having huge ass festivals and celebrations where everyone would just eat to the point of vomiting and drink themselves unconscious to actual satanical magic rituals.

Summa summarum: It's nonsense and the only reasons that people cling to it is either some kind of inhumane ethnic crap, the search for an identity or straight out satanism.

>>593831

*revival from the late 1800s

>>593830

>>The Eddas were distributed over Europe like a Bible

My bad, forgot the word "not". Why else would I preface it with "Paganism survived without any Bible, or anything"

What a typo, though, even got some BV out of the woodworks.

>>593820

I've talked to you before I think, maybe on /pol/ or on here, same picture, too.

Anyway,

>It sustains itself by virtue of nature itself.

>No.

Yes. Definetely yes. It's not without reason that polytheism is the standard, even Christianity adopted it with the "Holy Trinity" and all that, but with the agreed upon addition that it's all the same thing, of course, like all the other marketing wank.

(All knowing, still judges. Perfect and whole, still does things even though perfection is ALWAYS the end of anything you want. Everywhere, but can still go places, etc. Insert all the things here.)

Don't have much time, but, as usual, reality is the biggest argument here and there's no need to discuss this except for entertainment.

>>593807

>Except it didn't. Evola explained why Western pagan traditions are no longer valid: they don't have an unbroken chain of priestly initiations. Any Westerner who claims to be a pagan is larping without exception.

If I were to burn Evola alive because I believe that Tyr will reward me for it.

Will he be unharmed?

Extrapolate this for everything belief covers.

>Hahaha dude your knife isn't even real lol larpgurglegurlehahgurgleI'mnotbleedingoutgurgle you don't even have scripturebleh

Anyway²

>>593747

This still contains everything and reflects reality perfectly.

>>593922

One more quick thing.

>It sustains itself by virtue of nature itself.

>No.

>Yes. Definetely yes. It's not without reason that polytheism is the standard,

You might say that "well until they are taught about how things really are. Get told the truths."

But, that, again, is just adding to my points of

>>593747

>Christianity needs constant mending and "reminding" and could only survive relatively unchanged outside of Europe, where the real gods live.

You know, etc, me being right all the time, as it is customary.

Hehe.

>>593797

>. Once again you are applying incredibly low standards to judge paganism and incredibly high standards to judge Christianity

>One has a bunch of god figures who get duped and cheated and tricked all the time, real superhuman beans that simply make the most sense hence beings like that popping out automatically in one shape or another no matter what

>The other is super perfect supreme truth and holiness and pefection and infallability and splendor and covers all the other things because it's been Yahweh all this time and it totally conquered Europe and enlightened it and blabla

Make less bold claims and shoehorn one supergod that does everything yet fails at everything then the contrast woulnd't be so stark.

I am not trying to sell some superbeing that knows everything and can do everything but for -myterious reasons- does jack diddly squat at all and still gets duped and one upped by humanity all the time.

My guys just like a good time and crush all that oppose the west.

They channel themselves through all of their children with ease and require massive, continous exorcism to even subdue them slightly and once it stops they bounce right back.

Again, reality argues for me.

2000 years of confusion because we're a curious race doesn't mean anything.

It was tried, the varnish is falling off again and in 1000 years or so we'll all laugh about it when we look down upon this planet from our awesome battlekeeps and overlord towers.

You know, like the supersoldiers of the gods that we are.

>>593747

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Paganism. The Mythos is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of Odin sucking willy most of it will go over a typical person's head. There’s also Odin's stoic personality which is deftly woven into him. The followers of WOTAN understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of Paganism, to realise that it's not true- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Paganism truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the spirituality in Odin's existential cum gurgling. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Odin's mouth opens wide open, his hand jerking of a dead guy, and him swallowing cum. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Wotan tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It’s for the ladies’ eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they’re within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎

>>587731

Catholics and Orthodox believe in visible miracles, look at that life of any Saint with the title "Wonder-worker".

>>593804

???

European paganism was mostly seen as folklore (yes, even by most of the greeks/romans), not as religion. Only the mystery cults could be classified as religion and they were very scarce (elysian, cult of dionysus)

There is no religion without a priest to introduce the neophytes through rites. German/nordic paganism is larping. There is no religion without the attempt to experience the sacred.

>>594237

>German/nordic paganism is larping

Some countries have giant statues of bitches holding torches that urge you to take in poor huddled jewish masses.

Other countries have giant statues of heathen warrior heroes they rever to this day.

>that feel when reality continues to destroy all the Outlanders who think they know jack about anything.

>>593932

i hate rick morty's intellectualism so much. How could you be so retarded while understanding complex theories about the universe and consciousness at the same time?

>>594267

>hurrdurr create your own meaing it would totally work in a post christian society

also did you know vikangz sold european slaves? really makes you think about european brother hood huh you fucking snow niggers keep snownigging

>>594267

>>594260

Oh, and P.S.:

What I have posted there is not strawmen or jew fancies like the drinking semen meme and Wicca, which was invented by Anglos.

I simply have no need for these kind of approaches because, as it remains and forever will:

Reality is my copilot.

I don't have to do Rick and Morty.

I don't have to post dumb memes that don't even reflect how it is, just look at America and how antisemitic they are, etc.

>>594268

I'm letting you hang out with your jew rabbi, dude.

I just don't want facecream donors to talk shit about real religions in countries that made the second hand ware you're currently using the brand it is.

That's all.

>>594270

>everyone had different believes nobody took anything seriously everyone was split up

>oh and by the way everyone was a vikang who sold slaves to the kebab while patting a copy of the Edda which they kept in their pocket of course

Why do you even post?

>>594271

>im letting you

fuck off and fuck you

we are the one "letting" talk here with your abble non-sense with no substance to it.

>>everyone had different believes nobody took anything seriously everyone was split up

>oh and by the way everyone was a vikang who sold slaves to the kebab while patting a copy of the Edda which they kept in their pocket of course

Why do you even post?

Nice intellectual honesty there my friend. Nice way to twist my words up.

>>587704

Begin by looking at scientific explanations that debunk Evolution, Big Bang, etc. There are counter arguments to such things that are almost never heard of because many who believe in the counter arguments become/are Christians and therefore lack the necessary 'unbiased' credentials that people would expect from agnostic/atheist scientists.

Also this:

>>587708

Also race worship is retarded. Human will is rotten and stupid. You cant make people believe in paganism in todays time because there is zero miracles of that. At best youll have wiccas(phantasmagorical whores) who will at some time fuck up with all the evil karma they gathered.

Even if you didnt your pseudo ethno state will go back to follow its animal will. Theres no way around that. People dont say God wills it for fun and giggles.

>>594273

we can rape you if you want because moral relativism. You didn't post any of that, you just think you do ;^)

Your vikang ancestors still sold european brothers for monetary gain.

>>594284

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

>>594282

>As long as there is the human capability of awe inspired by nature there is the seed of heathenry.

>"ITS TRUE IN OUR HEARTSSSSS! REEEEE!"

>>594282

>As long as there is the human capability of awe inspired by nature there is the seed of heathenry.

that mindset is long gone. People think in empirical terms now not some backwater shithole you are in which creates phantasmagorical delusional sub-humans like you.

>That's moronic, we are living on a planet that will happily freeze, drown, burn you or feed you to ravenous predators.

Anything that makes survival more difficult is the opposite of good.

Nobody likes a rampant murderer that makes your life that little bit more difficult while you're tying your best to even find clean drinking water.

>hurr durr absolute truth

>Yes, yes, Europe was one giant hive of vikangs

nice stretching that claim to make it not as big at it seems. Snow nigger intellectual honesty as usual.

>>594286

I'm not lying, bro.

If you zoomed out and spawned a fresh set of clearn people in some simulation that is otherwise 1:1 Earthlike then it's very much less likely for them to write a copy of the bible than to come up with new thundergods and co.

But we're full in circular stuff now, I've talked about this pretty much in my first few posts.

You should go into a forest and relax a bit though, or maybe sit by a stream or mountainrange and chill.

>>594287

>that mindset is long gone

See those people dancing around the pentagram lady?

>>594273

How long gone is that, you think?

Spoiler, it happens every year.

Also, if you need a carpenter to tell you that it's wrong to kill because it upsets his father instead of seeing the direct, natural, community cohesion destroying nature of theft, murder and co, then, well.

But I suppose it becomes more true when someone gets crucified to get the message across and tells you that you'll be able to hang out with him later on if you believe his story.

>>594292

ok hes a brain dead idiot.Who says its wrong? you?

If there is no God then the morality you have is made up.

>>594292

Those are larpers. You want a society that thinks in the way of mythos and view reality in the eyes of pagan mythology, you need to destroy civilization back to zero. You are a pagan so likely you think civilization is evil and believes in anarcho-primitivism as well.

>>594294

>If there is no God then the morality you have is made up.

Yeah, yeah.

Guy goes around killing people in a heathen village.

Guess we'll have to let him do it because we don't believe in Yahweh.

>You are a pagan so likely you think civilization is evil and believes in anarcho-primitivism as well.

I certainly don't think humanity is scum and irredeemable, and humanity is the cornerstone of everything humans do.

Also, this smells like you think I'm a "Vargist" or anything.

I'm not. I'm just a German living in Germany where people like to "larp" here and there.

Our "mythical creatures" and "folklore" are probably quite a bit different to other regions.

It makes no sense to be tied to a "single truth" when things are so damn different even in the same nation.

"Evil" tribes don't usually make it very far because generally people don't just let marauders roam around sitting down.

Nobody wants to be speared in the ass while eating pinecone soup.

>>594295

>Our "mythical creatures" and "folklore"

As in, local to this region.

While Europeans often don't have a "mind" for the scale of the US and co, the opposite is true, too.

In my little region you get three different flavors of low german just by moving ~5miles.

>>594295

of course you can if you have the balls but clearly you cant because you're afraid of first world prisons.

>this smells like you think I'm a "Vargist"

you're anti-christian thats what of course youll get the varg treatment you boxed face retard.

>Nobody wants to be speared in the ass while eating pinecone soup.

you aure? your german so i doubt that considering germany's rep for sexual morality

>>594297

>You're anti Christian

I'm anti Christianity, if anything, and not even that. I just see it as the coat of varnish that has been crumbling off since it tried to move through Europe.

>you aure? your german so i doubt that considering germany's rep for sexual morality

Jews aren't Germans. They're the ones with the scat fetish and co.

I'm not animating a turd to mock Christmas with.

When I mock Christmas then by calling out the aspects that don't make sense in the context of Christianity.

Because, again, I don't have to rely on stupid memes and bullshit.

>because you're afraid of first world prisons.

I'm not really afraid of first world prisons, and how do you even arrive at that?

And how would it be a pro Christian argument, since they just rationalize it away with godly love and trials and whatnot?

At least you seem to realize that "moral less heathes" at least have the "air" of fighting back, having the will.

Even if it were dampered by "prison".

But you should relax a bit, as well.

Here, have a cathedral.

>>594301

shh with your semantics. I bet you felt great after saying that you fucking child.

> I don't have to rely on stupid memes and bullshit.

where the fuck is that not bullshit part? german degeneracy isnt a meme?

>I'm not really afraid of first world prisons, and how do you even arrive at that?

i mean lets face it the only thing holding you back from jail is your earthquake knees and soft spine.

>At least you seem to realize that "moral less heathes" at least have the "air" of fighting back, having the will.

yeah another way of seeing what you want to see

You're like a communist awho criticizes capitalism so much, whats your ideal society you retard? what grand thoughts you think everyday except "hehe im much more enlightened than these christians" despire living in a country of Christian minority that implies if you ever get out at all

and no im i dont want to be calm ill gut you if i could just for being an edgelord furry

.

>>594275

Could it also be that they're wrong?

>>594291

God created us. Why did he create us as evil creatures? Your story doesn't match up.

>>594286

Sounds truer than the Christian idea that God is in our hearts.

For being called out as biased, which I believe I am not, you Christians seem very biased against against paganism, or anything other than Christianity. I think a good person wouldn't be biased.

>>594311

read the bible dimwit

Also, not on the whole, but some of you guys are very mean. That's not Christian.

>>594315

Can you answer my question instead of resorting to name calling? It would really help, like I said "I am trying".

>>594314

define your idea of what bias is

everyone is bias because everyone has opinions retard

id take,buddhism and hinduism over you larpers

>>594316

you're right i shouldnt tell you to blow your heads off because nothing ever would make you happy in your life except acting stupid online that wouldnt be christian so Gud be with you

>>594303

Allow me to summarize your post.

Anyway, I got stuff to do now. Have a good day.

>>594319

"prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair."

>>594324

yes go away if you cant asnwer what i ask.

>>594327

modern paganism is a meme. If you cant take Christianity go to hinduism. Theres nothing respectable about neo-paganism.

>>594332

My problem is I don't believe. That's what i want, to believe. I live my life rather Christianly, other than my perversion.

>>594345

As in, I try to "be a good person", I give money to the poor when I can, I help people when I am able.

>>594345

thats great. You're an atheist so you belive what happens after death is a perfect stillness nothing ever bothering you. Why do you think thats true?

>>594351

I don't even know what happens after you die. I presume things other than myself happen when I die.

>>594352

This is because I perceive things happening, and they seem to be independent of me. So I think "the world will keep turning", but i don't know. Do you believe you will go to Heaven? Why do you believe that?

>>594355

what do you call you? you still didnt answered my question anyways. Im not talking about the world im talking about your consciousness

>>594356

I believe we die. But I don't know.

I don't know what you mean by this: "what do you call you?"

>>594356

Sorry, I meant to write I believe we end.

>thread shitted up by a german

every fucking time

>>594358

>>594357

theres no way thats guaranteed. Theres no solid proof of that despire what scientism says. Theres no end to perception. Everything perceives.

>>594332

>modern paganism is a meme.

>neo paganism

Firstly, it's retro paganism, if anything.

Secondly.

>meme

Do you realize that every other denomination other than yours very likely believes that yours is a meme?

And vice versa?

Do you know what this leads to?

Let's say, for arguments sake, there are only 100 denominations.

1st denom: mine (1) is legitimate, 99 others are heretical.

2nd denom: mine (1) is legitimate, 99 others are heretical.

1st denom: mine (1) is legitimate, 99 others are heretical.

3rd denom: mine (1) is legitimate, 99 others are heretical.

…

100th denom: mine (1) is legitimate, 99 others are heretical.

This gives each denomination a likely score of 1 vote to be true, and everyone else voting for heresy.

Therefore: The majority of Christians think that Christianity is a meme.

>>594385

> Do you realize that every other denomination other than yours very likely believes that yours is a meme? And vice versa?

That's some flawless logic my man. Personally, the only "Christian" groups that come close to the meme status of paganism are groups like Mormonism and Jehovah's witness. And I still have more respect for them than I do you. Hey, at least Joseph Smith actually had some success selling polytheism and LARPing to the masses.

>>594385

You seriously using the not real paganism on me? You make me root for mass killers.

>>594385

and no you halfwit. I respect thousand years of tradition not some new age hippie crap neo-pagans do. I would choose hindus and buddhist over the so called "pagans".

>>594360

Right and I said I don't know. Can you backup that everything perceives? That's an interesting view that I'm interested in.

>>594417

nah you dont deserve it.

>>594426

>>594423

You guys are cunts.

>>594417

yes you dont know but thats not the point. Either you believe in nothingness or not and if not then that can be a path against materialism idiot

>>594427

we are only mirroring you're behavior pal

>>594427

OP, while we may have been ruder than necessary, you weren't telling the whole truth when you said you wanted to convert back.

If you say you want a pizza but then ask the guy at the counter 50 questions about the pizza without an end in sight before you get the pizza, it'd be reasonable to assume that you didn't want the pizza to start with or you managed to talk yourself out of it.

>>594436

No, I want to convert back. I just didn't see any arguments that convinced me and thought you guys might have some.

>>594518

There's a reason why faith is such an important concept. You're never going to find a bombshell argument that wins every debate and proves God's existence without a shadow of a doubt.

Of course, I believe the evidence favors God but if I were to only be Christian if everything could be proved, I wouldn't be Christian.

In the end, it's gonna be a leap of faith in one way or another for you.

You've just got to choose whether to resign yourself to death with atheism or get baptized and at least have a hope for life after death with Christianity.

I hope you choose to take the plunge though, no matter what happens.

>>594518

You cant prove God with evidence because he is the source of evidence. Clearly you're an atheist so please so you definitely have faith in the argument that there is no God so work on that.

>>594524

I'm trying, brother.

>>594546

Well, starting a thread on your concerns was a good step anyway.

Consider talking to a local priest about any questions you have as well.

I hope we get to see each other beyond the grave.

Good luck!

>>594616

I hope that to, I would love that if that were true. And if we met I would treat you as a brother.

Thanks to those that are trying to help me. Sorry if I seem like a troll.

https://www.google.com/search?q=who+was+the+pharoah+in+exodus&oq=who+was+the+pharoah+in+exodus&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10926j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This google search made me start to rethink my views.

But I still don't understand. I've never seen the Earth from space, but I know the Earth is not flat. The original texts of Judaism say the Earth looks like this picture. What the fuck? Did some of it happen and some of it not?

And I'm a scientist. I know canines (teeth) evolved to tear meat. Did all the predators evolve this after the Garden of Eden story? I still have so many questions, and I cannot be an ally of someone who created such an evil cycle of pain (the food cycle).

And I mean why didn't God just create us and herd us as one giant family? Instead he lets us separate only to rejoin him in another character: Jesus. Why wouldn't he have just maintained us in one big giant group so there were no wars and less challenges of faith. They say God is perfect, but this does not seem perfect to me.

And I mean the Bible says there are no other gods, but it also said pharaohs priests performed magic. Are they just magical and the gods behind them not real? What the fuck?

>>595243

Bible says have no other gods before God. It's perfectly reasonable to assume demons pose as deities for other faiths.

>>595248

Where does the idea that all other gods are not real come from, then?

>>595251

Because idolators believe that their "gods" are creators, and yet, we know and acknowledge only One.

Angels and Saints have been called "gods" or "sons of God", yet, they are neither recognized as the Creator nor as Christ.

>>595290

So, the distinction comes that in pagans believe in one or more false deities. Should they actually have a revelatory or an authentic spiritual trafficking with these false entities, it is known these things are demons.

>>595292

How does one come to know this?

>>595296

Logic. If they speak to a "deity" that does not profess Jesus Christ is God, then they are demons.

usually, they demand stupid crap like adultery, other sexual immorality, or even real child sacrifice

as to the latter, God showed His mercy in that He not only spared Abraham's child, but offered His own begotten Son as the sacrifice for our sins. That's the true, loving, beautiful work of our good Creator.

>>595297

Good grief.

>>595296

>>595350

1 Corinthians 10:20

But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Psalm 96:5

For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

And this isn't even getting into all the events of the gospels where Jesus repeatedly casts out devils that are possessing people. In scripture is where the basis for this is found. It is also worth noting that "devil" means false accuser, lying and accusing is intrinsic to the nature of one.

>>595240

>They say God is perfect, but this does not seem perfect to me.

That may seem true, but you have to realize that His ways are higher than our ways. That we are limited, He is not. He created everything with a purpose in mind, but there is not going to be a guarantee that the creation will understand or be able to understand the final plan of things. I believe in God that everything will make sense and be perfectly just at the end of the day, I trust Him, just like I recognize that God is also the very same reason that anything exists at all. That Creator is who I'm talking about when I talk about God.

>>595360

>But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Baseless claims.

>believing anything that comes from a people that mutilates the genitals of their infants and jumps to kill children at the slightest notion of:

>not letting 'people' go

>hearing gods (who themselves sacrifice offspring)

>insulting preachers

Etc

>>595297

I'm going to try speaking to one of these entities and see what I come back with.

>>595360

I think I humans could understand his ways. You speak as if there is some unknowable truth about this, but I do not see it as an unknowable truth.

>>595448

What is said with a tongue of flesh, is not the same as the intention

>>593929

Lol you don't worship any pagan gods, you're simply a race idolater.

And from an ontological point of view, it makes perfect sense for a creator to be the source of all truth and virtue, once you realize that the highest attainable good must exist by necessity, even if only in our minds.

>>595363

You do realize paganism almost the world over is literally defined by human sacrifice right? From sacrifice of children in the pagans of Europe, to the sacrifice of…well, anyone in the Aztecs. Even the Chinese had human sacrifice regularly.

Anon. They're demons. Why would these "creators" need the death of humans to be sated anyway?

>>595456

>>596005

Maybe it's all bullshit. Maybe the creators are evil.

>>587735

I wish Fr. Schmitz was my dad

>>596027

how teeny are you

>>594297

The amount of anger you possess, and your inability to understand arguments, makes me dislike you.

>>587736

You have to understand, you have no picture of the Virgin, so I don't believe you

>>596008

We know the Creator is good.

Even if I'm swayed I think I'll actually be taking this approach: I won't listen to any doctrine as these could be errored or things that are false. I'm just going to live my life the same way I always have, unless I find some new reason to change, and maybe find out if I was wrong when I die.

>>596327

How do you know this? Is this creature really good? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnExgQ81fhU

Is disease good? He created all creatures so you say, is bacteria and viruses just not part of the creatures he created?

I mean, it's just doing what it has to to survive, but Nazi's just did what they had to do to survive too.

And seriously, address my points. I'm sure it'll make you a stronger Christian.

>>596344

>how do you know this? is this creature really good

The Creator alone is good, the creature, not so much. Heaven is a beatitude, in that the creature is once again joined with the Creator. It is said that only those with a pure heart will see God.

>Is disease good? He created all creatures so you say, is bacteria and viruses just not part of the creatures he created?

Only God is good. Death is an evil meant to be foreign to man.

>I mean, it's just doing what it has to to survive, but Nazi's just did what they had to do to survive too. And seriously, address my points. I'm sure it'll make you a stronger Christian.

I don't think all Nazi's were evil, more than I think any man or creature is good. Only God knows the hearts of men.

>>596351

So himself enjoys good, alone, while we whither and die in our sin? OMG THAT'S SUCH A GOOD RELIGION I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THIS CAUGHT ON

>>596351

You must admit, at least, that he created us evil. Is that a good God or a bad God?

>>596356

>created us evil

How? Man made a choice, or was tricked into it. Christ says that when we have God's will, we will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Man's salvation is freely given. Man decides whether he is evil or good.

>>596355

>So himself enjoys good, alone, while we whither and die in our sin?

Man choose good, and be rewarded with eternal life, or he can choose evil, and be cast into the outer darkness.

So d683c9…choose good. Choose God.

>>596364

He at least created them knowing they would disobey, if you take all of Christianity as true?

>>596366

That's evil.

>>596367

You answer your own questions, so your mind is already made up. Regardless of what you think, you can repent at any time, and the bosom of Christ awaits you.

Man can choose salvation or damnation, at any time. Choose salvation.

just give up on op

he doesnt even know he is agnostic

what a dumbass

>>596388

I know I"m agnostic.

>>596392

>Hey, I'm an atheist

i also know you are a woman

>>596396

Oh now I know why you don’t believe in god

>>596397

Why is that? Did he make me just to damn me?

>>596396

also wear your maga hat for me

>>596399

Yeah, I made a mistake. I swear.

>>596401

I don't like Trump. He distrusts science and he didn't sign the Paris Agreement

Are you trying to troll me?

>>596404

alright, then wear your drumpf hat.

>>596404

dont you have some nintendo switch to open?

>>596408

Gotcha. Enjoy your ban, the mods will ban you so hard back to 210 with your edgy atheism

>>596409

I only was mean once you were mean to me.

>>596410

ok be nice to me and show me your fedora collection and friendzone text messages

>>596411

Uh, I'll have to go buy a fedora, friend. It's nice of you to use popular ideas to demean me. Thanks. I'd pray for you if I prayed.

>>596412

you must at least have a katana with you dough

>>596413

No, I don't.

>>596415

dont teleport behind me please

>>596416

Do you think I can teleport, friend?

>>596416

Anon, he's a man who desires to be saved.

Just shut up.

>>596427

kek no hes not you brainlet

>>596436

I actually am. I just find the proofs to be unsatisfying, I think the God story doesn't match up, and I find God to be an undesirable, yet in some ways desirable, character.

>>596438

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrGVeB_SPJg

You are really simple minded. You ask about "evidence for God", but you don't evven know what evidence is.

You have a completely inconsistent worldview. You reject God, but you try to talk about "good" and "evil". You reject God, but you think there is a "you". You are, ovverall, a clueless fool with no philosophical, theological or religious knowledge. You parrot buzzwords without understanding them. That is why, in your complete ignorance, you think you can "judge" God. That alone is laughable, and shows you ahve absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

I can see your meaningless life, that you try to fill with hedonism. You are the weak man, product of good times created by christian strong men.

>>596440

I know what evidence is. Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.There can be good and evil without God.

He's all powerful, how are there poor people?

>>596440

I try to keep my "skeptometer" in check at a low level. Your proofs do not seem like proofs to me.

>>596438

no you're not you want spoonfeeding

typical manchild

>>596457

Everything I've found by myself points to God not existing. I was hoping that you guys had something I didn't think of, I was kinda holding out that there was but I was an agnostic/atheist because I found no evidence that couldn't be something else. And the something's elses seem more reasonable as the something elses.

>>596444

You should wonder, then, what are the "facts" or "information" you use to prove things, and what makes you accept them as "facts".

>There can be good and evil without God.

There can't. I would ask you to define what is good or evvil without God, but I know you will answer with the same circular answers: "good is what is convenient", "good is what helps", "good is what helps achieve this for some reason", "evil is what is bad" "evil is what causes suffering, which has to be avoided because it is bad, because it is undesirable, because it is evil" etc etc

>>596454

By the way, I have not attempted to present "proofs". It seems you are retarded, and obsessed with using LE BIG EPIC SCIENCE XDDD WORDS to feel big.

It seems that in order for something to be considered "evidence" for you, it has to adhere to your materialistic degenerate hell, so that we must """prove""" God form the assumption that God does not exist.

>>596005

>You do realize paganism almost the world over is literally defined by human sacrifice right? From sacrifice of children in the pagans of Europe, to the sacrifice of…well, anyone in the Aztecs. Even the Chinese had human sacrifice regularly.

Executing criminals in the name of justice is a custom done in Christian countries, as well.

It just happens to be that polytheistic cultures usually have a deity for the justice department.

I don’t see how there can be material evidence for the immaterial. And without that, the entire debate is confined to feels and opinions. A leap of faith must be made.

and I can’t do it

>>596458

Alright, you've made up your mind. You can leave now, OP.

>>596505

The assumption that the universe is coherent is already a leap of faith.

>>596505

It's not a "leap of faith". Not being materialistic is just not being stupid

>>596825

Thank you. I'll review these.