/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>585932

As Bishop Kallistos Ware would say, not everyone would be saved, but we can hope for it.

But Universal salvation sort of contradicts free will. And since you mentioned Isaac of Syria, we should also mention that he supported idea about heaven and hell, that is most widespread in Orthodoxy: it is the state of soul and depends on attitude of person to God: Saints love God and rejoice his love, while sinners despise Him and His love is as fire to them, gnashing teeth from hatred and wrath. This idea contradicts universal salvation, as it would require that everyone would love God, at the end denying free will. So I cant see how Isaac of Syria supported apocatastasis.

>>585934

I saw this blogs,they look legitimate

https://www.google.com.ar/amp/s/afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/st-isaac-the-syrian-the-triumph-of-the-kingdom-over-gehenna/amp/

https://www.google.com.ar/amp/s/afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/st-isaac-the-syrian-the-hellish-scourge-of-divine-love/amp/

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/st-isaac-the-syrian-preaching-the-astonishing-love-of-god/

>i almost had a heart-stop because of stress over catholic doctrine of hell.im catholic and think its a very harsh system that evolved for barbarian peoples(iberians,goths,franks so on)

My hope is for universal salvation, but in the end I don't believe in it. I do, however, believe in annihilationism.

>>585932

>>585941

Read the bible

>>585943

I admit i cant into exegesis, I rely on other's exegesis.

The point of the thread was whether U S should be kept secret , i think so.

If it is "best" kept a secret, that would mean we would be required to purpetuate falsehoods and lies in order to "do the right thing" (or get the best outcome). This is a contradiction, as doing the right thing by way of promoting falsehoods invalidates the outcome (the "right thing" to be done or achieved), on the basis that two wrongs don't make a right and, indeed, one wrong does not make a right.

>>585932

>Even if this idea creates anxiety,it helps the sinner avoid sins

I am sure many people have converted from fear of the traditional conception of hell. I am undecided as to whether this is a good reason to convert. I'm sure it would be if it were real, and remember R.C Sproul extolling the usefulness of the reality of hell as a possibility for converting unrepentant sinners. However conversion based on fear, nay, a terror (as if it is a possibility it should truly terrorise us, as I know it does me and have spent evenings weeping of the possibility of it as a reality) of the possibility of hell, rather than understanding the love of God and what he achieved for us on the cross, seems rather weak and not what we should use to urge conversion or pursuade people to come to Christ. I am more convinced of annihilationism as being biblically and logically sound over the eternal concious torment doctine, also. Vid related.

>>585932

Didn't Christ say eternal fire? What's there to debate about that? We're not in Shakespeare 101.

>>585932

I think that the best thing to remember is that it isn't man who is judging sinners, but God. Whatever theory turns out being true in the end we can be absolutely sure that it is absolutely just and nothing short of it because if whoever makes the judgement doesn't make the perfect calls then he isn't worthy of being called God.

But yes, the problem of hell is absolutely the worst obstacle for conversion because it turns the good news into very very bad news for those who don't understand it fully, even my Christian friend told me he struggled with it just last night, and we always need to be aware of that in mind in our evangelism.

>>585932

>Is heresy ok

No.

>>586002

>But yes, the problem of hell is absolutely the worst obstacle for conversion because it turns the good news into very very bad news for those who don't understand it fully

to be fair, when talking about the subject I always presented the Orthodox version of it (about which Isaac of Nineveh) was talking about. It rather seemed logical for them and, at least during conversions on Internet, they have said that they would reconsider their former negative attitude regarding Christianity.

maybe unrelated just wanted to share this detail

>>585992

> as I know it does me and have spent evenings weeping of the possibility of it as a reality) of the possibility of hell,

;_; pls don't do this, God loves you and everyone else.

cry because you offended someone who loves you,not because someone is going to "scold

you"

>>586002

tell your friend ill pray for him TBQH so he doesnt suffer in anxiety

>>586030

idk if he'd like to know I'm talking about him on an inuit blubbertheater pulpit but ty

>>586008

Tim Keller has a good sermon on justifying/explaining the plausability for the tradtional conception of hell (eternal conscious torment) - vid related - from a protestant perspective which takes a vaguely similar approach to the othordox interpretation iirc. It should also arm those evangalising who want to stick to the tradtional view when the question comes up.

>>586030

>not because someone is going to "scold you"

haha, friend, why do you paint a charicature of the idea of hell? Do you understand what it purports to be? I don't weep for myself necessarily, as I have faith and trust in God, though of course there is a small part of me who weeped for myself as I can't deny that, if real, it's a possibility that I might end up there. And anyway, doing so helped me emphathise and weep for with the much more significant source of sorrow: the possibility that any single soul may end up there of the whole world, although of course, including familiy and friends in particular when bought down to a personal level. More than this, however, its less about who specifically may end up there, but just that the concept itself is truly terrifying, and is the ultimate source of any sadness relating to the idea. If it does not have this effect on anyone I can't see how they could have thought about it enough and understood it properly and its implications.

>>585943

There is great Biblical support for annihilationism.

>>586212

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

>>586007

Can't be heresy if it's what the first Christians believed

>>586008

As someone who somewhat fits this description:

>But yes, the problem of hell is absolutely the worst obstacle for conversion because it turns the good news into very very bad news

Can you explain why the "orthodox hell" is any different than the more famous versions of it? As far as I'm understand, according to the Orthodox, people in hell will still suffer, and the suffering is forever, right? So it's still essentially the same thing as any other version of hell. It might not be literal fire, but suffering is still suffering all the same.

>>585992

>If it is "best" kept a secret, that would mean we would be required to purpetuate falsehoods and lies in order to "do the right thing" (or get the best outcome). This is a contradiction, as doing the right thing by way of promoting falsehoods invalidates the outcome (the "right thing" to be done or achieved), on the basis that two wrongs don't make a right and, indeed, one wrong does not make a right.

We don't know so one could have a firm hope or even conviction in universalism but preach eternal hell

>>586223

But they didn't. Jesus preached eternal fire, as did Paul. Please read your Bible.

>>586233

and why would you preach something you had no conviction of otherwise? It would be spreading (what are to you) blatant falsehoods for which there is no good reason to do so, (assuming you truly are convinced of universalism).

>>586349

Universalism could be mistaken for a license to sin for many people

>>586374

I agree that's a problem with it, but that doesn't mean you can go preaching about one thing (eternal concious torment) when you know another to be true (universalism).

>>586385

Wel, Im at odds at what do do.

i'll always stay with a Hope for universalism, I cant bear otherwise.

>>586223

Arianism is still heresy even though at one point pretty much everyone but Athanasius accepted or gave into it.

I think a sinful life leads to depression and unhappiness, so you should do things like have compassion for those in need, don't get addicted to pornography, don't get addicted to anything, develop your mind and produce something creative and avoid anything having to do with savage living like crime and betrayal.

IMO hell fire comes from savages burning people alive, and we can see that today through Burning Man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pUTKNGpu1s in The U. S. and Guy Fawkes Day in The U. K..

>>586227

Of course everyone has its opinions, but when you realize that hell is hatred of God and his rejection, to say it shortly, it actually makes a lot of sense and even necessarity of it. This is when human is directly responsible for his torment, not due to sin=punishment equation, but in a literal sense.

>>586397

>Wel, Im at odds at what do do.

Me too, friend. I suppose the best approach would be to acknowledge to those you're evangelising that the bible does not have enough information on the afterlife for the unsaved to be 100% certain, and that there's a possibility that one of the three (universalism, annihilationism, eternal concious torment) is true. In light of this I would say it would be important to ensure that we ourselves know the ins and the outs of why each view is supported and objected to through scripture. I would say it's important to know in detail for ourselves so that we can communicate it with others because, as has been noted in the thread earlier, the question is one of great importance to the potential convert. However, at the end of the day, as >>586002 rightly says:

>Whatever theory turns out being true in the end we can be absolutely sure that it is absolutely just and nothing short of it because if whoever makes the judgement doesn't make the perfect calls then he isn't worthy of being called God.

And that evangelistic efforts should of course not be focused on the question of hell, but rather what we have mercifully been offered in place of it.

>>586436

annihilationism is a no-no its even worse then torment because it would make God a murder and ceasing to "be" is impossible to imagine, doing that would be twisted I think!

>>586443

> It would make God a murderer

All life is because of His creation, He can do with it as He pleases.

>>586443

>it would make God a murderer

Ridiculous. The definition of that word precisely relates to an unjust killing, or in this instance full-blown annihilation. The question of the destination of lost souls is focused centrally on God's justice, so, as already stated, whichever of the three options for the fate of lost souls, we can be safe in the knowledge that it will be just. Also this >>586449 x1000

I can't possibly comprehend how you can think that annihilation would be more "twisted" than sustaining a soul's existence in misery and torment for eternity. When God has it in his power to destroy souls who reject him but he instead goes "nah..ima keep u alive for ETERNITY in ABSOLUTE MISERY AND TORMENT….just becuz.." (as there is no good reason to do this*) makes abosultely no sense in terms of his mercy and justice. Truly, it would be that end which would be twisted. Indeed, while I think there's a strong possibility, nay likelyhood of some excruciating torment, misery and regret on the part of the lost souls who finally see Him on judgement day, particularly in light of the reality of the alternative that they had the option of grapsing onto, it it rather would be incredibly merciful while at the same time just for him to annihilate a lost soul when he could do otherwise (i.e. eternal concious torment).

*One of the arguments for annihilationism stems from the fact that the common notion that our souls are eternal by default is unbiblical and was subsumed into Christianity from pagan approaches (stemming from Plato iirc). That you might not have this as a presupposition may have a bearing on how you view the options.

>>586469

Your arguments dont stem from spite, I respect that.

Also just clarify im not an universalist so I can sin freely;i DO believe in hell,just that its like a worse purgatory and sinners dont know it will end until it does

>>586485

>Your arguments dont stem from spite, I respect that.

Thanks m8, I did think my calling of your post ridiculous a little harsh after posing it, so I appreciate your kind words despite that.

>>586485

>so I can sin freely

No I never assumed you meant this anyway tbh

>just that its like a worse purgatory and sinners dont know it will end until it does

Interesting, of the three universalism is the one I've looked into the least (and does seem least likely from what I know) but as mentioned >>586436 I think it's important to and intend to look into all of them in more detail.