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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 1ce1ae001f9f68f⋯.jpg (7.03 MB, 3840x2160, 16:9, Background.jpg)

1722d7 No.581664

Clearly I can't spill my heart out, because this is still a chan and I'm not running through TOR, but the new year is upon us and I'm struck with the same bad feelings as usual.

I'm an atheist, or about as close to one as an agnostic can manage to be, in any case. I think whatever certifiably supernatural shenanigans go on are cosmic-tier and don't dabble in the lives or ongoings of the world at all. That said, I do think it makes sense that, given what we know about physics, there must have been something beyond our comprehension and current natural law in the very beginning, because no current law of physics makes creating a universe from true vacuum naturally possible.

In any case, losing people and things and the general (albeit only really socially imposed) significance of entering a new year always makes me so sad about the temporary, pointless nature of it all. I know people say don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened, but I can't help but live in dread every day of the end. I wish I didn't. I know there are atheistic schools of thought to quash existential dread, and I can't logically even formulate why I feel the way I do, but it's so tiring. My close friends are Christian and it seems great, but I can't ever seem to dip my feet in the waters of your faith without feeling like I'm lying to myself.

Of all the existing and dead faiths out there, what solidifies Christianity in your minds?

bfaede No.581667


f02067 No.581671

The fact that God told us about everything that will happen before hand i.e revelation and about (((them))) far before /pol/ which is to say 1 kings 24 and matthew 4:8-10. What exactly do you dread? Why haven't you repented of such and turned to study the Bible and worship God more?


1722d7 No.581675

>>581667

Thanks, reading it now.

>>581671

I dread dying, primarily. I know that's illogical, as a dead person in the most scientist sense can't suffer, or feel, or even think, so it's just like being knocked unconscious forever, but still. And not even just my own; I dread the process of losing everyone I love as well as myself.

>Why haven't you repented of such and turned to study the Bible and worship God more?

Too many faiths just lowers my confidence in all of them. I can't throw my heart into one sincerely.


be5a97 No.581682

File: 6c5ff1d9475342c⋯.jpg (290.47 KB, 800x1243, 800:1243, tommy1.jpg)

It takes a lot to prove God, but I have nothing better to do on my new years day 2 at the morning because quite frankly there isn't anything better to do at all so here we go.

First, it is important to establish that atheism is more or less a bizarre aberration that runs counter to the logic that philosophers in the West have been utilizing for millennia, beginning right with the ancient Greeks. You may object that pagan ancient Greeks did not believe in a monotheistic God, and you would be correct in stating that, but some of them recognized the fact that you do too, that there must have been something beyond our comprehension and current natural law in the very beginning. Plato knew this and called it the One, Aristotle called it the First Mover, and while neither of them saw it as the personal, loving God that we do, they understood that nothing else compared to it. To explain better, it is best to look at the best framing of their arguments ever put forth, the five proofs of St. Thomas Aquinas. Although he was a devout Christian living in the 13th century, his five proofs are almost entirely synthesized from Aristotle and the philosophical traditions he spawned, and at their best only prove classical theism, not necessarily Christianity. But one step at a time.

The First Way: Argument from Motion

1. Our senses prove that some things are in motion.

2. Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.

3. Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.

4. Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in 5.another).

6. Therefore nothing can move itself.

7. Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.

8. The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.

9. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.

2. Nothing exists prior to itself.

3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.

4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).

5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.

6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.

7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).

8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.

9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The Third Way: Argument from Possibility and Necessity (Reductio argument)

1. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, that come into being and go out of being i.e., contingent beings.

2. Assume that every being is a contingent being.

3. For each contingent being, there is a time it does not exist.

4. Therefore it is impossible for these always to exist.

5. Therefore there could have been a time when no things existed.

6. Therefore at that time there would have been nothing to bring the currently existing contingent beings into existence.

7. Therefore, nothing would be in existence now.

8. We have reached an absurd result from assuming that every being is a contingent being.

9. Therefore not every being is a contingent being.

10. Therefore some being exists of its own necessity, and does not receive its existence from another being, but rather causes them. This all men speak of as God.

The Fourth Way: Argument from Gradation of Being

1.There is a gradation to be found in things: some are better or worse than others.

2.Predications of degree require reference to the “uttermost” case (e.g., a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest).

3.The maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus.

4.Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God

The Fifth Way: Argument from Design

1.We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance.

2.Most natural things lack knowledge.

3.But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligence.

4.Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end, and this being we call God.


be5a97 No.581684

File: 0055e15943cb186⋯.jpg (195.53 KB, 858x952, 429:476, Paradiso_Canto_31.jpg)

The first three arguments, the cosmological argument, form logical proofs derived from the axioms of motion, cause and effect, and contingency, i.e. the most fundamental observable principles of existence itself. If this being is to be the cause of all motion, then it must in and of itself be unmovable, subject to no change and completely unaffected by anything other than itself. If this being is to contain the actualized potential of everything that can conceivably (and inconceivably) be imagined, then it can be nothing other than absolutely infinite. If this being is to be the cause of everything contingent, everything transient that comes and goes, then it must be in and of itself eternal; always existing as much as existence exists itself. This is the way that the pagan philosophers saw God, yet Aquinas goes beyond the cosmological argument and backs his case up with the fifth argument, which shows that shows that there is no way that these principles can exist on their own, but must have an intelligent author behind them. The argument from design has undergone much evolution in recent years due to, well, evolution, but nobody can deny that the laws of physics are far too structured and consistent to be the product of random chance, because if anything they prove that nothing is random and everything obeys a certain order. I would be lying if I told you I totally understood the fourth way, I'm not 100% sure why Aquinas conceived of goodness as a tangible thing, but it establishes that the essential qualities of things must have an author in addition to their interactions. Basically, the entirety of existence as we know is covered by and informs these proofs, and it shows that not only is this existent absolutely fleeting and incomparable to the true reality, but that this true reality can only exist through action, through an intelligent author. And certainly, this author must know just about everything. You can see now why monotheistic religions claim that pagan idols and polytheistic gods are simply false, impotent, and illusory compared to the eternal God, because basic reason shows that literally, nothing is eternal but God, nothing exists without God, and nothing is if God does not will it. You can also see now why "magical sky daddy" criticism dosen't even touch the heart of what Christians actually confess belief in. Afaik the only two pervasive arguments against these proofs come from Enlightenment philosophers like Hume who have claimed that knowing God is beyond human reason despite the essentially rational nature of these arguments and the fact that Hume's entire field of study, and indeed all human action, is informed by reason, and the notorious Feuerbach, who was the source of Marx's conception of religion as a psychological crutch, which is a fair objection worth addressing but doesn't even address the argument at hand. And that, if you ask me, is the only reason that atheism has flourished as long as it has, because of intelligent people just sidestepping the argument at hand.

I'm only going to post this for now because there is much more to be posted, this is perhaps the heaviest part, and I am dumping quiiiite a bit on you as it is, but I encourage you to read the text that these proofs are derived from, the Summa Theologica. Don't feel obligated to read the entire Bible as of yet, although you are obviously free to do so, because to a skeptic it may raise more questions than you need right now. Reason got you into atheism and reason will break you out of it. The Summa is long but the essential parts are all in the beginning, and it is a bit dense but not incomprehensible as long as you take it slow. If you have any objections to its logic remember that this work was primarily written for ancient students of philosophy and theology with their own vocabulary and logical techniques (in Latin), so ask us to clarify and we will. If you have doubts, try to work them out, because this stuff wouldn't have survived as long as it did if it didn't ultimately make sense.

And as a final note, I want to make one more point. If this being that is absolute in it's power over existence is indeed the first mover, then one has to ask the question of why it moved in the first place. Certainly not for its own benefit, because what could it stand to gain? A man with an infinite supply of money does not need to invest for his own benefit, for all benefit is simply his from the get-go and even the greatest amount he can earn is a quark in the ocean. But he can create a fully functioning economy whereby people can make a living, earn their bread, and feed their family, and that basic observation is what separates philosophy from religion; God did not create the world for himself, he created it for you. God bless and happy new year!


2bf812 No.581692

>>581664

ultimately you didn't create yourself or the world so whatever happens is happening for a greater purpose, for a greater aim, our lives are factored into the equation, they are not trivial, nothing in life is trivial, every blade of grass is accounted for, nothing exists by accident, nothing material can just create itself and arrange itself, and whatever supernatural intelligence exists is most likely not petty and unfair, everything is in good God's hands. So there isn't anything to worry about. Just have faith and seek the truth.


0233d7 No.581695

> I think whatever certifiably supernatural shenanigans go on are cosmic-tier and don't dabble in the lives or ongoings of the world at all

I think you are a huge retard with 0 knowledge about theology, philosophy or religion and like to use DEEP words about THE UNIVERSE and EVERGY.

It's noi surprise that in your COSMIC and DEEP meaningless life you are terrified.

Go lear something about those religions you talk about, then come back, cosmic-tier new-age hippie.

(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST)

19a11b No.581697

>>581695

Welp that's a sheep possibly scared away from the flock by a shepherd with a shotgun. Good going anon who I can only assume is a false flagger because how can an actual Christian consciously spit in Jesus's face with that much gusto. Happy New Year!


19a11b No.581701

>>581695

Nonsense aside tho are you ok dude? Because seriously, like, what the fuck?


2bf812 No.581702

File: 70c224198ec54fe⋯.jpg (28.4 KB, 400x294, 200:147, 14eco3.jpg)

>>581695

>you're stupid and retarded

>just read more

>go learn something hippie

what a terrible way to communicate with someone who is most likely depressed or feeling down…you didn't even recommend anything for him to read specifically


0233d7 No.581703

>>581697

So I can't say the truth about a fedora, but you can say that actual christians "spit in Jesus' face", ask them if they are ok, say they are false flaggers, etc.

You are a hypocrite.


0233d7 No.581704

>>581702

I recommended him to get to know ANYTHING about those "soooo many" religions he "knows" that according to him are the reason why he does not believve in Christianity, while being compltely ignorant about them.

I feel down and depressed when I see the same retardation completely, and don't expect people to treat me with caresses and kisses when I spit on everything that is sacred to them because "cosmic energy and whatever lol"


19a11b No.581707

>>581704

>>581703

The dude is literally just an admittedly confused sinner who doesn't know why our tradition is any better than the rest and instead of showing him why it is you are treated him like scum. He'll be getting a crash course in Thomism when he wakes up ffs. I can see now that you aren't a false flagger, you are just drunk and need to steer clear from this board tonight for the good of OP's soul. God will forgive you for this nonsense and I do too, nobody can be in a good place if they're drunk and shitting on sinners at four in the morning on New Year's day, but that's only if you recognize it for the nonsense it is. I'm praying for you dude.


bc26f0 No.581709

File: fbe2f58955f93f7⋯.jpg (590.51 KB, 700x6826, 350:3413, first way.jpg)


fdce42 No.581712

>>581675

>I dread the process of losing everyone I love as well as myself.

That's kind of the main reason I believe God exists. I refuse to believe that all the love and suffering we experience is for nothing, I do not think the universe is ordered in that way.


0233d7 No.581720

>>581707

I think you are a huge retard who treats new age insults to Christianity with caresses and actual Christianity with relentless punches. You are nonsense, and keep your passive aggressive "I'm praying for you" for yourself, which is the person who most needs prayer.

>>581711

There is no "human morality", retarded fedora, which is why hedonistic new-age idiots like you live in constant terror.


0233d7 No.581722

>>581707

By the way, how about YOU steer clear, self-righteous hypocrite who believes himself to be God?


e67627 No.581727


708833 No.581730

File: 8a68b2f0a5d6c7c⋯.jpg (54.05 KB, 640x360, 16:9, I_Only_Have_Eye_for_You_-_….jpg)

>>581720

I am not a "fedora" I am on the devil's side, also, of course humans have morality based on empathy and logic ex: don't torture people because it makes them feel pain, don't steal because is belongs to someone else etc. While God is "don't do X because it distracts you from worshipping me / it's weird!"


0233d7 No.581732

>>581730

> I am on the devil's side

So you are a hedonistic LARPing fedora.

I recommend you learn what "morality", "empathy" and "logic" are instead of spitting buzzwords. Or better yet, don't do so, since people like you are the best propaganda against fedoraism.


717f80 No.581752

>>581732

Dude, look at what you write here.

The only self-righteous hypocrite around here is you. Your last post is filled with insufferable amount of passive-agressivity. You've clearly got some issues when you reject a prayer in good faith, from your own denomination even. On top of it all you seem to be massively projecting onto others.

And no, "praying for you" is not a passive aggresive statement. Christ Himself teaches us to pray for those who persecute us.

The only reason people like

>>581730

begin to show up is because with angsty, vicious snakes like you, they believe themselves to be in a good company.

And yes, I also will be praying for you whether you like it or not.


1722d7 No.581916

Hey guys. I fell asleep pretty shortly after the Summa Theologica post, so I don't know who >>581730

is.

It's very conveniently available online and I am currently reading it.

>>581704

I didn't say I "knew" all those religions, just that the presence of so many leaves me spoiled for choice and indecisive.


5fdf6a No.581942

>>581730

God is the one responsible for both creating and sustaining us every second. He doesn't have to do all this for our sake, unless He chooses to. If God decided, in his infinite wisdom, it wasn't right to sustain someone any longer, that would be his natural right to do as the one who also created that person in the beginning. So don't get your expectations out of order. God isn't just some created agent who just happens to have more power, like some kind of alien entity with magic. God is the cause of existence and by him everything consists. Whether you realize it or not, that's what's going on here. And if you truly recognize this, then his word starts to make sense and you will start to realize why God is the only one rightfully to be feared. Because He only is the one who made you exist.


19a11b No.581956

>>581916

>I didn't say I "knew" all those religions, just that the presence of so many leaves me spoiled for choice and indecisive.

And that's definitely understandable, but that's also where proper theology comes in, to find out which faiths are built on bedrock and which are built on philosophical sand. For years I personally wandered from pantheism to deism to many other philosophies of god with all sorts of bells and whistles, but at the end of the day nothing else was as logically airtight as simple classical theism and my brain couldn't protest it no matter how much I wanted it too. So here I am.


1722d7 No.582154

>>581682

I would like to thank you again for posting this, Christanon. It's given me a lot to think about.


be5a97 No.582159

>>582154

No prob, Aquinas is the shit, and come back any time if you want to learn more!


be5a97 No.582161

>>582154

And to add here's a funny story. Nearing the end of his life, Aquinas had still not finished the Summa, and worried that he never would. While saying mass one day, he was struck by a vision. All that we know of this vision is what his friend Brother Reginald reports that he said on the matter. "The end of my labors has come. All that I have written appears to be as so much straw after the things that have been revealed to me."


1469ff No.582793

Hey Christanons, OP here. I’ve been thinking about it and am still a partially terrified and confused mess (been having this existential crisis for nearly 9 months now after losing my last grandparent)


059d96 No.583439

Discussing this with my less religious peers was perhaps unwise


be5a97 No.583761

>>582793

>I’ve been thinking about it and am still a partially terrified and confused mess

Thinking about it isn't going to cure that sadly, at least not immediately. Talking about it may though, and we and any priest would be glad to do so. Existential crisis are a fuck, but knowledge that the entirety of creation is ash and dust and that you have the promise of eternal life tends to smooth quite a few of them out.


eaf1da No.583885

It might if you know, but I think it's the not knowing. Or the "knowing" there's nothing. Also I suffer from a depressive disorder so I can't really just enjoy things as the come ordinarily, either.




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