/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>572259

Because you let yourselves become so corrupt that the semantic arguments of a pissed off monk made sense in contrast. If luther just moved to greece and begame ordodox, protestantism and its many heresies could have been avoided.

1 Maccabees 4:45b-46

>So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.

1 Maccabees 9:27

>Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

1 Maccabees 14:41

>And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise…

If there were no prophets around at the time who would have been there to write down inspired scripture? And so we can't consider Maccabees to be inspired scripture because it wasn't written by a prophet.

As with the rest of the Apocrypha, The Maccabees can be useful for teaching, but should not be viewed as inspired scripture.

>>572264

>sola scriptura

<change the scriptures to fit your theology

>>572286

One doesn't need to be a prophet to write inspired scripture, and sometimes the authors didn't even know they were being inspired.

>>572287

I'm on your side. But you should all come back into communion with the other sees.

>>572288

>sometimes the authors didn't even know they were being inspired.

Examples?

>>572290

I think it can be assumed from some of their writings. I'm not saying this was always the case though, sometimes they may have. There's no indication they always knew. Regardless, being a prophet in the strictest sense isn't necessary to write scripture. But the term "prophet" can rather be loosely defined at times.

>>572259

The apocrypha was written during the 400 years of silence, there were no prophets anymore and there no apostles yet, so it’s not inspired by the Holy Spirit. They’re great books, but only divine scripture belongs in The Bible. Put the apocrypha next to your copy of Mere Christianity and The Confessions, but don’t elevate these man-made books to the same level as the books written by God

>>572292

>>572293

The term prophet can be loosely defined, so in a sense anyone inspired is a prophet, but that doesn't mean they were prophets like Moses or Isaiah.

>>572292

The Septuagint was divinely inspired, the scholars who composed it were divinely inspired. Protestants AND Roman Catholics have taken away from scripture.

>>572264

Take off that flag

>>572259

Let's just be clear here. We could talk about things like how there were no prophets to write scripture, but it's really irrelevant here, since the only grounding for this dispute is the presumptions of the pope and his bishops to determine what is and is not scripture. Something is scripture because it is inspired by God, the pope of Rome has no say in it whatsoever. Those 7 books are not scripture because they are not inspired. The only reason you believe they are scripture is because the magisterium commands you to do so. Therefore, seeing as the magisterium has no authority and is an invention of men and not God, those books are not part of the authentic bible.

>>572292

>Fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy

>Not considered scripture

>>572300

>"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." Council of Hippo (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

>"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine scriptures. But the canonical scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ." Council of Carthage III (Canon 47 [A.D. 397]).

>"The whole canon of the scriptures, however, in which we say that consideration is to be applied, is contained in these books: the five of Moses . . . and one book of Joshua [Son of] Nave, one of Judges; one little book which is called Ruth . . . then the four of Kingdoms, and the two of Paralipomenon . . . . [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called ‘of Solomon’ because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them" St. Augustine of Hippo (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]).

>

>>572293

>>572290

Did Nebuchadnezzar write any of Daniel?

>>572259

The Scripture of Jesus and the Apostles was the Septuagint, which included the so-called "apocrypha." It was translated into Latin Vulgate primarily by Jerome, and preserved from there.

Luther was a dumbass and assumed that the existing masoretic texts of the jews was preserved better than the texts which the Church had. Meanwhile, the jews had mangled the texts to better reflect their talmudic bullshit and to remove various references to the Messiah as well as dropping some of the books which were written in Greek originally. The masoretic text that Luther used was written 700+ years after the Vulgate.

So Luther was wrong to use it, and protestants carried over with his mistake.

Considering what Luther later wrote about the jews, you'd think he'd have revisited that decision and corrected it, but no.

>>572319

We can just be thankful he didn’t remove a quarter of the NT as he was tempted to while he was at it. Would’ve made the Protty bibolators look even more retarded though.

>>572319

What is the big deal? it's all the same crap really, ad nauseum.

>>572319

>Luther caused all of this

This is toddler-tier understanding of history, not to mention complete ignorance of the infallible preservation of Scripture that is set in stone by God's own word. Isaiah 59:21. The original words will never be lost, it doesn't matter what anyone tries to do. See Jeremiah 36 for a good example.

The septuagint is a translation, a very poor corrupted translation, not in the original languages of the Old Testament. And it takes from the NT to back-translate OT quotes into Greek.

Thread Bible verse:

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Matthew 11:13

>>572300

I haven't been chrismated yet. Get better arguments.

>>572300

Can you explain how you know those works aren't inspired?

>>572259

Because their Jewish masters told them to

>>572361

Mental Gymnastics: The Post

is martin luther the saint of baptists or something? why does he get to decide what is true scripture for baptists?

>>572368

I like William Tyndale a lot, ever watch God's Outlaw?

>>572366

Origen is the source of complete Greek OT. Before Origen it was only the first five books of Moses were translated to Greek.

>>572259

Because the true followers of Christ never accepted any of the apocryphal, but they good for educational reasons, not doctrine .

>>572363

They contradict what the bible tells us about the bible. For example, scripture says the Jews knew what God's word was (Rom 3:2). But they rejected these books.

That picture is amazing.

>>572259

Are you a bad enough dude to reconsecrate the temple?

>>572368

Because regardless of what retarded LARPing some may do, they’re fundamentally Prots. There’s no Baptist Bible without the Deuterocanon because the Baptists didn’t exist until after the Luther Bible.

>>572373

>>572372

The Jews at the time accepted Maccabees, and the Christians continued that canon. Can you show me that there were "true believers" who didn’t worship at the Synagogue of Satan rejecting the Deuterocanon in the entire medieval period?

>>572361

The Isaiah argument is "interesting" because if the Eusebius and Irenaeus are to be believed Matthew is apocryphal too according to that logic.

>>572387

>The Jews at the time accepted Maccabees

No, they didn't.

The earliest Christian canon of OT (the bryennios list) is identical to the earliest Hebrew canon (against Apoin).

>Why do Protestants reject these scriptures?

IDK ask them. I'm Baptist and I reject them because they're not "scripture." They were not passed down in Hebrew. If they were, then they would be bible.

>>572389

so if luther and jerome (being a catholic) aren't saved, why do they get to decide baptist doctrine?

>>572287

<<change the scriptures

>implying it's scripture

>>572412

They didn't. Just because they were right on a few things doesn't mean they were on everything.

>>572389

>Jerome says that he will let the Pope and Council decide what canon is

>Council of Rome and Pope decides Catholic Canon

>Jerome as good Catholic accepts

>This means he didn't really believe in it of course

For fuck sake, it is like useing Ignatius to prove that there were no monorchical bishops

>>572488

<<implying it's scripture

>implying it's not scripture, thus taking away from scripture and now facing damnation in accordance with Revelation 22:19

>>572289

those other seas are not even in communion with each other, stop falling for ortho propaganda

>>572591

As opposed to your propaganda? Contradicting is just a few steps above ad hominem.

>>572361

the NT quotes the septuagint. good enough for the gospel writers but not good enough for St. Martin Luther, same one who wanted to remove Revelation and James.

>>572522

>I feel

>>572591

Are you talking about the East and OO?

>>572522

>they felt more inspired

You sure it wasn't just gas?

>>572522

This right here is why I'm leaving protestantism.

>>572936

You're leaving protestantism because of false flags, huh? Odd choice.

>>572959

How is it a false flag when such thinking is rife throughout the many churches I've been to? This is not the only reason I'm leaving, the others being personal doubts over sola fide and sola scriptura, heretical teachings, and the churches I've attended since leaving my hometown 6 years ago have all had an extremely worldly focus.

Sage for off-topic.

>>572959

>false flag

Yeah, it sure isn't:

Dispensationalism, christian zionism, millienial corruption to social club status, encouraging of degeneracy, pathological "pacifism" disguising cowardice, shitty music, lack of doctrinal/historical teaching, lack of seminarian credential in most modern charismatic "clergy", vacation week long "missions trips" to paradises, all talk no action, infestation of pc culture. What else am I missing? I thank God I'm reacquainting myself with the faith and traditions of the apostolic church.

>>572673

my point is that EO are not unified at all, so it's impossible to be united by joining them. Even not accounting for the fact that they are the ones who schismed and not us, they themselves can only be united if they join us instead.

>>572906

no, about EO

>>572389

He didn't consider the deutorocanon inspired?

>for does not the scripture say: ‘Burden not yourself above your power?’”

sirach 13;2:

>Do not lift a weight beyond your strength, nor associate with a man mightier and richer than you. How can the clay pot associate with the iron kettle? The pot will strike against it, and will itself be broken.

http://shamelesspopery.com/st-jerome-on-the-deuterocanon/

http://shamelesspopery.com/does-saint-jerome-endorse-the-protestant-canon/

>>572971

I wanted Applebee's dad

>>573091

The prolific Gnosticism and general syncretism in mainline Protestantism is what did it for me.