/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>568671

Their worshippers are all gone, their names are forgotten, these gods are altogether dead

>Was it wrong the Christians of the past to destroy the pagan idols and burn their literature?

Not if you know them in the right way.

>Even the Poetic Edda exhibits what seem to be Christian influences

They're seem like Christian influences because they're counterfeits.

>>568689

Right, so there is no danger of anyone worshiping these idols. Does that still justify destroying them?

>>568694

Is an image truly an idol if no one worships it?

>>568695

Does it matter whether we call them images or idols? I'm talking about the justification for destroying them.

>>568671

While there are good things in most cultures/worldviews/Traditions it requires a very thorough understanding of both Christianity and the other Tradition to "baptize a nation" and its Tradition without syncretism. While different Traditions were originally given by God (Deut 32) their gods became corrupted (Ps. 82) so there is a lot wrong with them.

Destruction of those Traditions is more justifiable than watering down and destroying Christianity.

>>568701

There's no reason to destroy a mere image

>>568713

So you think it was justified, but is not any longer?

Why didn't you just say that instead of dancing around the question? lol

>>568716

It's obvious for most people, anon

We destroyed a living lie. They destroyed ancient history.

>>568671

No reason to destroy them.

>>568671

>Even the Poetic Edda exhibits what seem to be Christian influences that likely would not be found in the original, if the original could be recovered and compared.

Not saying it's impossible, but why would Christians have altered the Poetic Edda and yet left things like the works of Homer and especially Hesiod virtually untouched?

Destruction of items from the past is the height of barbarism. It would be pure lunacy to go to the museums to destroy ancient idols in order to prevent people from worshipping them, first because there is very little danger of such a thing happening, and second because such an act is subhuman in nature; it is not natural to want to destroy items from your ancestors, even if those ancestors were wrong in their worship.

Furthermore, as an archaeologist, I would be legally obligated to go Indiana Jones on your ass if you tried to remove things from the museums which they belong in.

>>568773

As I understand it, the Poetic Edda was written by a Christian monk, but the poems were composed hundreds of years earlier by the Norse pagans. The Greek works, in contrast, were composed and written by the Greeks before Christianization. Thus no Christian influence.

As for why the Christian monk changed the poems, it was probably to make conversion more palatable for the pagan holdouts. It also is possible he was trying to reconcile their mythology with Christianity like Aquinas did with Aristotle.

A third possibility is that he simply didnt know the poems completely, so he added Christian elements he was farmiliar with. Iceland became officially Christian in 1000AD. The Poetic Edda was written there sometime between 1100AD and 1300AD. There is only one extant manuscript too, presumably because the originals were either burned or the pagans never wrote down their oral traditions.

This is a classic example of an ends vs means debate. Yes the actions by previous Christians has irrecoverably damaged our understanding of historical peoples and undoubtedly destroyed a lot of beauty and wisdom.

However the ugly truth is that the destruction and state sponsored suppression of Pagan religions was crucial in Christianity spreading and becoming the dominant religion on earth.

It's ok when WE do it: The thread.

The destruction of the true heritage of Europe merely confirms that Christianity is a degenerate religion which enslaves its adherents to the will of the evil race of Semites. Most of the Abrahamic tradition itself is derived from Semitic perversions of European religions.

>If it was not wrong for the Christians to do it in the past, is it wrong for the Mohammedans to destroy the idols from dead Sumerian religions?

Whether it was right or wrong to do so (I say it was) Muslims do it because they have this autism about any images at all. It's not just because they are pagan idols that they are destroying them.

>>569157

You could try trashing Christian artifacts, but nothing would change.

>Level churches, massacre followers, desecrate Eucharists, smash statues, legally ban any public or private manifestation of Christianity you can think of

>The Church remains

However

>Cut down a tree

>Paganism BTFO

lel

>>569158

>muh heritage

>muh library of Alexandria

>>569158

What, no "dead kike on a stick" this time?

Pagan artifacts belong in a museum. Without sacrificing children or animals you cannot really consummate nearly all pagan religions, only LARP it.

>>568692

It was mostly monks who preserved most pagan literature anyway. Modern paganism isn't really real, just variations of edgyness.

Real pagans these days are the cult of santa muerte in Mexico.

Is there someone worshipping on these museums?

If yes, It's not wrong to destroy them if there is a change of government.

If no, It's wrong to destroy history knowledge.

The eddas didnt even exist, nobody corrupted them. They were literally written by a Christian from what he heard. They are at best a second hand Christian source

>>569321

>The eddas didn't even exist

The poems and the religion definitely existed before they were written. I don't think you'll find any scholar that would say the eddas were fabricated by the monk who put them to paper.

>They are at best a second hand Christian source

Yeah. That's why they exhibit Christian themes that were most likely not present in the original poems.

>>568671

No, ancient idols can be stored in museums so we can see them and get a better understanding of the past. It is the idols of today that ought to be destroyed.

>>568671

It wasn't ancient history back then, and no one cared about the anthropological value of the well-known customs of the their present-day common people. Some of those idols had been crafted within living memory, and some idols needed to be destroyed to demonstrate the pagans that their gods had no power to prevent the destruction. But in general people just didn't see necessary to keep that old demonic stuff around.

European pagans back then didn't bother writing down common stories or were entirely illiterate. Then in many cases the stories stopped being retold. No one burned down the Slav religious books because they didn't exist in the first place. Greek and Roman myths continued to be preserved.

>>568767

This. The threat of lost souls to these idols were ever so present in those times. Nowadays, they are just mere statues of, as >>568695 said, dead gods.

(with archaeological significance, one could argue)

>>568671

Pagans believed that their idols were literally physical manifestations of their deities who could walk and talk and eat, so cutting down a tree where druids would offer blood sacrifices was often literally the only way. In that case I see no problem with destroying them, there is no other way to convince the people. Now on the other hand, destroying something purely because it is pagan is not acceptable, those objects are still of historical and cultural value.

>>569158

Varg is a cuckold

>>569969

What are your thoughts on the destruction of pagan texts in primitive societies or the supression of pagan priests passing on their knowledge to ensure pagan faiths die out and Christianity has an easier time converting people?

>>569969

>Now on the other hand, destroying something purely because it is pagan is not acceptable, those objects are still of historical and cultural value.

That's the modern attitude. And it seems reasonable but read 2 Chronicles 34. We have it wrong. If it aint Jesus it's Satan.

>>569992

mmmm holy bullying. …..Soon

It wasn't wrong back then because it served to weaken pagan religions which were false, and therefore made people less likely to adhere to them.

>>569247

Yep. The only reason why we know anything about paganist religions is because Christians preserved their literature. There is nothing wrong with destroying pagan idols, they have no worth, and lead people astray.

>>570094

You're looking at a reminder that removing statues doesn't erase history.

>>570102

So it's a festival or something?

>>570063

Their worshippers are altogether dead, their names are all gone, these gods are forgotten?

>>570106

Yeah, it's the annual Krampus celebration.

they're already murked, no need to teabag

>>570063

why is this so funny lmao

drudkh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all shitty buttrock and metalcore > burzum

>>570094

>What the hell am I looking at?

A ritual based around Perchta who is both an evil crone that loves nothing more to gut you and a good woman who makes it snow and so forth.

Krampus is related to her but they're not the same.

The festival is both appeasement and to shoo evil spirits away.

>>570102

>You're looking at a reminder that removing statues doesn't erase history.

It's also a reminder that despite calling these things dead and buried and forgotten that they're not dead and buried and forgotten at all and survived 2000 years of Christianity cracking down on it and everybody allegedly "accepting Christ and abandoning their heathen ways".

In Europe at least, or the Germanic regions, anyway, it's much more likely that Christianity fizzles away in more destructive and permanent ways than pagan stuff.

You might not like that notion, but paganism is simply more resilient by nature.

The fact that its flavors don't claim to be the one true way being the pillar of that.

In Christianity all you need is a bad missionary result, incorporating some people into your faith, which is the only true faith so everybody has to follow it.

Then the people who enforce that "one true thing" become corrupted and then EVERYONE following has to adhere to those new standards.

Pagan stuff does not have this problem.

And the rumble of thunder and lightning in the sky is naturally awe inspiring.

It's much more likely for someone to connect some humanoid being with that after all traces of "paganism" were erased from earth, than re-conjuring up the Bible and co, if Christianity got fully erased.

>>570177

>If Europe becomes pagan again, it won't be the paganism you're thinking of.

If that helps you sleep at night, then good.

>>570170

>The fact that its flavors don't claim to be the one true way being the pillar of that

This is exactly why neo pagans are so retarded. Their "religion" is little more than a fashion statement. At least the pagans old actually believed their gods existed. No LARPagan today actually believes in Mount Olympus, or that Apollo pulls the sun with his chariot, or that Atlas is holding up the sky. You can't even really call a group with such little conviction a religion at all. It's simply not comparable to something like Christianity or even Islam. It's like saying "Well this punk rock album is better than the field of chemistry!" Comparing them is just nonsensical.

>>568712

But surely there's nothing that inherently waters down our faith in preserving historical artworks and structures just because they were created by pagans to honour false Gods. I can see the argument about disrupting their congregations when their cults were strong, but doing something like Isis shitheads taking dynamite to genuinely beautiful and ancient Buddhist statues is imo a horrible crime against history, against the human spirit to hunger for truth and beauty (I.e. the true God), that led them to make such impressive and aesthetically pleasing objects. You don't have to be sympathetic to the paganism of the ancient Britons to admit that tearing down Stonehenge would cause us to lose a valuable part of history that can never be recreated

>>570198

>If Christianity falls in Europe/Germany, Islam will take over

We don't want it. Europe is a filthy place. At least clean it up before you fuck off.

t. /islam/

>>570225

ebin

t. /s4s/

>>570198

With Islam being ~4% of the German population, I wouldn't worry too much about them taking over any time soon.

>>569992

>to ensure pagan faiths die out and Christianity has an easier time converting people?

It seems to me that this borders dangerously closed to forcing conversion. I am of the opinion that forced conversions are illegitimate. Thus, it seems to me destroying them may not have been justified in all cases.

>>568689

Just like Christianity in Saudi Arabia, I guess this excuses the bloodshed.

>>569153

>>569308

>>570061

>>570088

>Muh Byzantium

>Muh Islamisation

>Muh attack on Christmas

Well you guys lose any right to complain, as this is the mentality of ISIS. Your God is another's false idol.

>>570225

He said while throwing applications at various European countries like half his family.

>Hates white countries

>Moves to them

>Turns them to shit

>Moves to countries they hate

Muslims may hate Europe, but obviously migration shows they hate living in Islamic countries far more.

But if you want to leave that's great, remember to tell everyone it was terrible and never to visit.

>>570088

The only reason Christianity is worth a damn is paganism. The Churches Protestants despise for "idols", pagan. Christmas trees, pagan. Your beloved Fathers like Aquinus, HUGE pagan fanboys of guys like Plato and Cicero.

You may argue Christianity alone made the West great, in which case I suggest looking at Ethiopia. No European paganism, nowhere near the level of Europe.

>but I'm Protestant

Ok. How's South Korea right now? Oh that's right, it's a cultural vacuum that worships boy bands and is so materialistic they have plastic surgery for birthday gifts.

Paganism made Europe great, the closer Christianity was to Paganism, the better. That's why the Catholic Church had the most aesthetic buildings, and philosophy. Meanwhile Protestants are a joke, and viewed as insane, you can't even accept evolution in some sects.

>>570300

Isn't South Korea super Jewish?

Isn't this just the same question that the caliphate will be asking about Christianity eventually?

When you are so insecure about the validity of your ideas you'll destroy your cultural legacy, where do you draw a line? Nobody destroyed all evidence of conventional plows pulled by livestock when we developed farm equipment.

>>570311

United States:

The Catholic Church, 68,202,492 members

The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,136,044 members

The United Methodist Church, 7,679,850 members

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6,157,238 members

The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members

Protestants together don't add up to the number of Catholics in the US. Try again.

>>570317

Out of all the options right now, America is still the best country in the world. Just because we have degenerate coastal states doesn't mean other countries are better.

>>570322

>Roughly 46.5% of Americans are Protestants, 20.8% are Catholics, 1.6% are Mormons, and 1.7% have affiliations with various other Christian denominations

Gotten from the same Wikipedia article you got yours. Try again.

>>570327

Baptists don't consider themselves Protestant, so take them out of the equation.

>>570329

>Baptists don't consider themselves Protestant

"I'm assuming by "protestant" you mean non catholic or orthodox Christians?"

Literally the first thing I said.

>so take them out of the equation.

Even if you take them out of the protestant percentage, your whole point was that "non-pagan influenced Christianity isn't worth a damn". Are you going to say Baptists are pagan inspired now?

And for the record, most baptists in America do consider themselves protestant(reformed).

>>570336

You're free to disagree, that's not my point. I'm just proving that protestants/baptists have been successful, and they have no pagan involvement at all(although their involvement in Catholicism/orthodoxy is almost non-existent, anyway.)

>>570349

>have been successful

In building a modern Babylon, sure

>>570185

>This is exactly why neo pagans are so retarded. Their "religion" is little more than a fashion statement. At least the pagans old actually believed their gods existed. No LARPagan today actually believes in Mount Olympus, or that Apollo pulls the sun with his chariot, or that Atlas is holding up the sky. You can't even really call a group with such little conviction a religion at all. It's simply not comparable to something like Christianity or even Islam. It's like saying "Well this punk rock album is better than the field of chemistry!" Comparing them is just nonsensical.

Nobody actually believing that the biblical God is actually perfect and all knowing is a much bigger deal.

Perfection:

Full wholeness, not a single blemish, need or want.

A perfect being has no further needs because it is perfect.

Therefore a perfect god would have no need to create anything, think about anything.

The purpose of thought is to arrive at some conclusion, and being both all knowing and PERFECT implies that there is no further step available on the journey, since the destination, perfection, was already reached.

Omniscience bounces off of that as well.

A perfect god is a fully inert god with no further action taken, because everything required to reach full wholess without need, want or worry has been achieved. There is no next step left.

In order to continue using your god you must now live a double definition of perfection.

One for marketing purposes "Our God is so awesome, he is perfect" and actual, ACTUAL dealing with things purpose.

"Well, he's a differen't kind of perfect that still leaves him able to act because otherwise EVERYTHING falls apart"

But even concepts like the immaterial Heaven are so casually tossed aside for marketing reasons.

You cannot go to heaven, heaven is where souls go. You can't observe heaven, you cannot reach heaven, it's for the afterlife.

>Reads about Jesus and his exploits

Dudes, I got Jesus in my heart, he is communicating, he's guiding me.

<I thought he was in heaven

LARPAGAN YOU DONT EVEN USE YOUR GODS RIGHT.

Et cetera.

Could go on, but…nah. I just get banned for that.

Heck, I'm probably gonna get banned anyway for being a heretic because I actually take the unfortunate results of attributes attributed to your one true god to heart.

Not my fault that this completely destroys everything about him.

>>570312

Like Christianity?

>>570700 (checked)

No, as in the Talmud itself is pretty huge over there.

>>570700

Funny how the (((Left))) demonizes Christianity and goes on about how the Christians killed so many jews and hate the jews so much and /pol/ says Christianity is jewish because heretics try to appeal to the left.

>>570718

But anon! what about the passion of Christ? if the jews really hated Christianity they would never allow Christian movies to be made.

>>570720

I recall certain Jews protesting that movie.

>>568671

Yes, it had a negative effect on the collective psychology of Northern Europeans. When we destroyed the bagans, we totally destroyed them, roots and all, and that had a large part to play in the rise of modernity and cosmopolitanism in the west, the connection the bagans had to nature and land were not bad things and the church threw the baby out with the bathwater on that one.