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File: 1e04654599004c3⋯.jpg (110.92 KB, 700x308, 25:11, session_concile_vatican_2.jpg)

a51be0 No.562481

If there is one.

Was it a mistake ? Or an genuine attempt to harm the Church ? Is there anything good in this reform ?

I'm not baptized for the moment, I'm still hesitating between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but Vatican II confuse me.

I've heard theories about Jesuits infiltrating the Church with the intent of undermine it. I don't really know if I should give them credits.

09387d No.562486

Vatican II was a valid ecumenical council and as such, Catholics are bound to it. However, lots of Catholics have gone way beyond what Vatican II intended, which is why so many Novus Ordo parishes are basically Protestant. I actually like the Nobus Ordo when it's done reverently and correctly, but sadly that isn't the case a lot of places. I think they key is either to go to TLM or shop around and find a good Novus Ordo parish.

The other thing about Vatican II is that it didn't declare any new dogmas or anything like that. While it suggested that people of other faiths could be saved, they would be saved in spite of their false religion, not because of it. There is still no and will never be any salvation outside of the Church.


cb1e6f No.562507

File: 896eee4ad0336a1⋯.jpg (57.08 KB, 467x700, 467:700, cb2de4b5d51dd29746a7a122c5….jpg)

>>562486

This.

Literally all Vatican II did was grant us some flexibility in liturgy, which we actually already had to some degree before 1570.

The Trad/SSPX hysteria has more to do with political games in the Vatican as well as the gay lobby. There were many folks who assumed the Vatican was eventually going to lift their requirement on celibacy, and they were butthurt when the Vatican didn't.


41fe03 No.562511

>>562481

>What's the truth behind Vatican II ?

A valid, Magisterial ecumenical council.

The arguments against it are by large based on memes, lack of theological knowledge and cherrypicked quotes.


09387d No.562520

>>562511

Actually it's pretty obvious that John XXIII and Paul VI were both homosexual Freemason communist demonic Jews


539dff No.562529

>>562511

Weren't Jews and prots allowed to make decisions on the new direction of the church? And the idea that the church needed to change was condemned in the syllabus of errors by the way.


3498d2 No.562532

>>562520

>no b*ptist flag

missed opportunity


72b4f4 No.562535

>>562486

Question: if there was no need to clarify/establish dogma, then why call a council at all? why open the floodgates to the nonsense we have today? Judging the council purely by its fruits (spending the last few decades trying to clean up the liturgical abuses and a generation of very poorly formed clergy) its issues are very clear. Final question: if V2 didn't declare or clarify any doctrine/dogma, then what exactly are we bound to? Are we bound to never criticize liturgical abuse? Are we bound to never criticize the clergy or the Pope?


41fe03 No.562582

>>562529

>Weren't Jews and prots allowed to make decisions on the new direction of the church?

Irrelevant, because the Council's authority comes from the authority given to the Church that directs and approves the Council. Even if a Jew or a Protestant were allowed to make a decision, his choice would matter only because the Church approved it.

>And the idea that the church needed to change was condemned in the syllabus of errors by the way.

Show me the particular condemnation.


539dff No.562633


99fdb8 No.562636

File: a86e487d8a1bdbe⋯.jpg (264.46 KB, 974x651, 974:651, napoleon pwns the pope lik….jpg)

The truth is that Napoleon Boneparte already confirmed the voidance of authority of the roman catholic church by crowning himself.


cb1e6f No.562638

>>562636

Oh, wow! Is that all it takes?!? :O Better get me a crown then


99fdb8 No.562656

>>562638

>Oh, wow! Is that all it takes?!?

LOL! I guess so hahaha


99fdb8 No.562658

File: c26fa5f843d7f83⋯.png (111.41 KB, 243x174, 81:58, nap.png)

File: fc50bcd81ec9485⋯.png (92.61 KB, 199x223, 199:223, pop.png)


e66187 No.562678

File: bac2fbbcd79b826⋯.jpg (97.57 KB, 590x348, 295:174, RESTOUT_Jean_II_Pentecost.jpg)

>>562633

>The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization

You can check Iamdudum cernimus, which this condemnation refers to, for the full context.

This is condemning a far narrower proposition than "Church needing to adapt itself to the times", which has been always true - the Church must always be efficient at its work, and the particular way this is done depends on the external conditions in which it exists. Counter-Reformation with all the changes it brought is one example. The Church couldn't fight with Protestantism efficiently if it stayed in the same state as before - it needed a full reform to adapt to the new conditions. Dogma never changes - but the organisation of the Church, its structure, methods it uses, etc. can, must and always have.


8d7338 No.562685

There will be a wicked council planned and prepared that will change the countenance of the Church. Many will lose the Faith; confusion will reign everywhere. The sheep will search for their shepherds in vain.

A schism will tear apart the holy tunic of My Son. This will be the end of times, foretold in the Holy Scriptures and recalled to memory by Me in many places. The abomination of abominations will reach its peak and it will bring the chastisement announced at La Salette. My Son’s arm, which I will not be able to hold back anymore, will punish this poor world, which must expiate its crimes.

One will only speak about wars and revolutions. The elements of nature will be unchained and will cause anguish even among the best (the most courageous). The Church will bleed from all Her wounds. Happy are they who will persevere and search for refuge in My Heart, because in the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph.

This is the Third Secret of Fatima.

>meant to be read to the world in 1960

>every pope since vatican 2 has been an anti-pope


99fdb8 No.562687

>>562685

whatever you say, cupcake. You're projecting Godly tribulation onto an institution that God judged for its fraudulence. Get bent.


afb99e No.562698

>>562685

>Happy are they who will persevere and search for refuge in My Heart, because in the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph.

>seeking refuge anywhere except in Christ


50f97e No.563512

>>562507

> going to lift their requirement on celibacy,

Which they should, the 1139 rule is tradition


515a2d No.563909

>>562535

not him but someone reply to this


bf7252 No.563916

>>562535

The church closed ranks after reformation and it kinda stagnated, the council was very necessary and was very good (the documents are brilliant). Some progressives took it too far, and in a very newtonian way, generated the ultra-traditionalist reaction you see today among young people and, particularly, internet. And they take it too far too, on the other direction.

The truth is always in the golden middle. Those documents of the council? You better read them with the "continuity" hermeneutic, working within the framework of the tradition and magisterium. Isolate them, and like with every text, you can make it say what you want to say. Even with the bible this can happen, even JW can quote scripture.

The problem was not the council, is some pozzed clergy/theologians. And we had those since forever. The council, if you are catholic of course, is the voice of the church, as valid as trent or even nicea. If you are not catholic, why bother? Just the whore of babylon whoring.


bf7252 No.563918

>>562535

A couple of decades is nothing for the Church. We should point out errors and abuses, the dust have yet not settled, the fruits are not yet seen. Only that way we can correct what should be corrected.

And remember that those pozzed theologians and clergy? They are all old. They grew up with the traditional mass, the old magisterium and tiara wearing popes. And yet, they came up like that. So, the solution is not coming back to that of course. Not saying that what we have is perfect, is not, like everything we humans do.


5173a4 No.563920

>>563909

i suspect it was somewhat a pr stunt (stuff like jpii teaming up with the muslims against atheists at the UN)


539dff No.563930

>>563918

>So, the solution is not coming back to that of course.

It's definitely part of the solution.


2c63ff No.563933

File: 98bd3744a064ee1⋯.webm (1.95 MB, 480x360, 4:3, Cardinal Stickler's Canon….webm)

>>562486

>Vatican II was a valid ecumenical council

Wrong faggot it was pastoral. It never denied heresy or clarified Dogma.


2c63ff No.563937

File: b260d3e6277d96b⋯.webm (4.84 MB, 640x480, 4:3, Fr. Hesse on the Muslims ….webm)

Lumen Gentium 16

>the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

You can't possibly call yourself a Catholic and believe in such a document.


5943a8 No.563938


2c63ff No.563941

>>563938

>Pope Paul VI

“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church's infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.” (General Audience, December 1, 1966, published in the L'Osservatore Romano 1/21/1966)


5943a8 No.563943

>>563941

>Dogmatic


a2c0f9 No.563946

File: 696c084b8697ada⋯.png (813.06 KB, 1113x1629, 371:543, pope .png)

I don't know about the Vatican but the pope is really awkward.


72b4f4 No.563952

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>563916

so here is my next question: the council is binding, but declares no doctrines infallibly, nor clarifies existing ones, so what is there to be disobedient to? I'm SSPX, and I've only ever met one person to deny the validity of the new mass, and nobody has ever expressed any sedevacantist opinions. So if I, in attending an SSPX chapel acknowledge the new mass as valid, and acknowledge the authority of the Magisterium, then what's the problem? Also, for those who say i shouldn't attend SSPX, vid related


2c63ff No.563988

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>563952

SSPX Latin mass is valid and licit.


aadfb7 No.563999

>>563946

The Big Bang is literally scientific proof for Creation put forward by a Catholic priest (Georges Lemaître, funny how they don’t teach you that). Before that the prevailing thought by atheist scientists was that the universe was eternally pre-existent (another thing you don’t hear about), and the theory was scoffed at as religious nonsense. I know we have some autistic YECs here, but it really doesn’t contradict Christianity.


c61791 No.564009

>>563999

One of the most common myths I have to dispel as a Catholic, is that we are at war with science like fundamentalists/evangelicals are. Very aggravating.


b7314d No.564012

>>563988

>SSPX Mass is valid and licit

Said like a true SSPXer.

Vatican hasn't changed its stance that SSPX is schismatic and so its Eucharist is valid but illicit.


aadfb7 No.564015

>>564009

It’s of course convenient to both the weirdos who think we walked with dinosaurs and atheists who want to discredit Christianity to represent fucking Kent Hovind shit as the mainstream position.


2c63ff No.564024

>>564012

Wrong faggot.

>Schism The refusal to submit to the authority of the Pope

The SSPX recognizes the papacy and its authority. On the other hand you are in schism, heretic.


b7314d No.564036

>>564024

>calling me a faggot

If your Church is actually the true Church, then prove it by your behavior instead of acting like a Jew.

>The SSPX recognizes the papacy and its authority.

I did not say that the SSPX recognized the Vatican as schismatic. I said that the Vatican recognized the SSPX as schismatic.

Since you are so convinced of being right that you're going to insult me, show me proof that the Vatican considers SSPX to be canonical and not in schism.

Meanwhile, I'll put this on the table:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2bmiWKsA9M

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/pope-francis-sspx-must-accept-vatican-ii-and-the-new-mass


2c63ff No.564068

File: b4aefeffcf30f22⋯.jpg (150.99 KB, 1464x976, 3:2, lefebvre2.jpg)

>>564036

Still wrong, fag.

==Canon 751== defines schism as "the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him,"

disobedience =/= an act schism. Archbishop Lefebvre always recognized the pope’s authority.

Excommunication comes in two flavors the one we are dealing with here is a latae sententiae excommunication.

Latae sententiae is an excommunication that has been inflicted by the perpetrator on himself, as it were, by his very act.

==Canon 1323== - No one is liable to a penalty who, when violating a law or precept:

>4° acted under the compulsion of grave fear, even if only relative, or by reason of necessity or grave inconvenience, unless, however, the act is intrinsically evil or tends to be harmful to souls.

Archbishop Lefebvre made it abundantly clear that he was acting out of grave necessity in order to ensure the faithful would have truly Catholic bishops. Archbishop Lefebvre was of old age and the Vatican was stalling his request, waiting for him to die of old age (how very Catholic of them) so they could ensure the Latin mass would die with him. He needed the bishops to keep the Latin mass alive.

==Canon 1323== - No one is liable to a penalty who, when violating a law or precept:

>7° thought, through no personal fault, that some one of the circumstances existed which are mentioned in nn. 4 or 5.

Canon 1324

>§1 The perpetrator of a violation is not exempted from penalty, but the penalty prescribed in the law or precept must be diminished, or a penance substituted in its place, if the offence was committed by:

>8° one who erroneously, but culpably, thought that some one of the circumstances existed which are mentioned in Can. 1323, nn. 4 or 5;

<§3 In the circumstances mentioned in §1, the offender is not bound by a latae sententiae penalty.

The excommunication is invalid.

"In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act [Can. 751]." —Pope John Paul II, Ecclesia Dei, No. 3, 07/02/1988

<"disobedience to the Roman Pontiff"

<"implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy"

Pope JPII is wrong and doesn't even understand his own Canon Law. Disobedience =/= schism. This is not proof Archbishop Lefebrve rejects the Roman primacy.

==Canon 1752== - the salvation of souls is the supreme law in the Church.

TL:DR Archbishop Lefebrve dindu nuffin


c77c5f No.564071

>yeah, I rather believe some prideful bishop over the Pope, and a Saint to boot.

Lefrebvist are schismatics, they sin against the required obedience of every christian.

And yes, the plan of salvation includes everyone in fact.


2c63ff No.564074

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>564071

>Lefrebvist are schismatics.

Wrong, >>564068

>they sin against the required obedience of every christian.

Wtf are you talking about? Explain thyself.

If it's the pope, Ultramontanism is Heresy.

>>564036

Watch this.


b7314d No.564089

>>564068

>>564074

Again, I repeat myself: I am not talking about the stance of the SSPX. I am talking about the stance of the Vatican. If the head bishop of a see tells you that you're a schismatic, that means he and the see he belongs to see you as a schismatic.

Argue all you want that the SSPX is not in schism with the Vatican and that it recognizes the authority of the Pope - that's not my problem, since that's not even what we're talking about. What we are talking about, here, is whether the feeling is reciprocated. Pro-tip: it's not, if you are SSPX you are in schism according to the Pope. You still haven't proven that I'm wrong.

>If it's the pope, Ultramontanism is Heresy.

Dude, "the head of a church speaks for this church" is not any kind of Ultramontanism. It is and always has been true for all Patriarchs, not only for the Pope. If the Pope supports documents that say you are a schismatic, then the Pope sees you as a schismatic, and because the Pope speaks for the Latin Church (that's his job), then the Latin Church sees you as schismatic. That doesn't mean that the schism is very grave - the SSPX don't return the negative feelings, and the sacrament of marriage is at least recognized for both sides, so there's a licit communion to some degree. But this communion is not canonical or Eucharistic yet.


ea71ae No.564092

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>564074

>Watch this.


d756a0 No.564103

>>564074

>saying that the Pope is the final authority in the Church is heresy

man, the mental acrobatics that schismatics/turbo-trads…

>but I'm the only real true catholic left™! everyone else everwhere are satanic freemasons protestants communist infiltrators!


cc949e No.564106

>>563512

Uhh no, honey.


6f015a No.564119

File: 108382637a0e305⋯.jpg (222.3 KB, 900x1200, 3:4, bm0r4l86uuuspn7y9gnh34eowp….jpg)


ff9b33 No.564250

>>564103

>I follow everything the pope says

You are, unfortunately retarded.

>>564089

You are beyond help and a brainlet.

(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST)

8d4775 No.566314


62f8ba No.566574

>>562481

I guess neither God nor Holy Spirit noticed that the doctrine is wrong for 2000~ years.

How embarassing!

Instead of dialogue, openness and ecumenism it should've been "expansion, pushback, and fight".

Assumption that the only evil is stemming from lack of understanding is unrealistic and delusional.

People have free will and sometimes

often they use it maliciously fully aware of the harm they cause and you can't negotiate with them or enlighten them about errors in their way.

"Dialogue" is doubly retarded because leftists believe that understanding comes from dialogue and not the other way around.

Jeśli ktoś sądzi, że porozumienie wynika z dialogu, proszę odpowiedzieć na spoiler bez użycia tłumacza lub znajomości Języka




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