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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 27b7a7e7973746b⋯.jpg (14.52 KB, 443x332, 443:332, unnamed (6).jpg)

8929ef No.562086

Do the denominations that reject pedobaptism trace their provenance of baptism back to the Anabaptists of the 16th century who self-baptized as adults alone in secret?

Do these denominations today accept self-baptisms as valid?

Also, was John the Baptist ever baptized with water? Who baptized him is so?

8f8ef5 No.562102

>>562086

>self-baptism

Basically people that like to touch themselves while they bathe.


3a310a No.562113

File: f47cccbe9236dce⋯.png (333.62 KB, 467x295, 467:295, V1M-baptisms-photosection.png)

>>562086

AFAIK those who reject infant baptism generally do not believe in baptism as a sacrament, it is just an outward symbol of faith. Therefore I imagine they view self-baptism as a pointless act, it needs to be done in front of others as a testimonial to your faith, even better if it's an arena with a thousand people.

In non-sacramental faiths, the emphasis is on public testimonial of faith (for example, public confessions and simultaneous communion), not sacraments administered by a priest.

As for John the Baptist, his baptism probably came from the Essene community, who developed a ritual practice of immersing themselves in water every morning.


cd6ba3 No.562154

>>562086

>Do the denominations that reject pedobaptism trace their provenance of baptism back to the Anabaptists of the 16th century

We trace it back to the Apostles. And so-called anabaptists were persecuted as early as A.D. 405, and put to death for this act in the Roman Empire as early as ad 413.

>who self-baptized as adults alone in secret?

I think you know the answer to that. Self-baptism isn't even a baptism.

>>562113

>those who reject infant baptism generally do not believe in baptism as a sacrament

It's an ordinance of God and instituted by God to be strictly followed. And it involves belief and profession of that belief on part of the subject, Acts 2:41-42, Acts 8:37.


0658f2 No.562155

>>562154

>We trace it back to the Apostles

How?


cd6ba3 No.562157

>>562155

Because we agree with the Apostles, we are in line with the Scripture of the Apostles, and there has always been some that are. We're the Israel of God and the chosen generation, to shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.


4fbb5b No.562160

>>562157

>Because we agree with the Apostles, we are in line with the Scripture of the Apostles

This is what I was asking about, on what basis do you claim this?


cd6ba3 No.562162

>>562160

1 John 2:5

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

>>562157

And if I didn't believe this I wouldn't be here wasting time.


4650eb No.562175

>>562154

>A.D. 405

Where do you get this number from?? Link


8929ef No.562198

>>562154

During the Reformation, many of the Anabaptists like John Smyth, the founder of the Baptist Church in England, self-baptized, then proceeded to baptize their followers.

If pedobaptism is illegitimate then that means the line of legitimate adult rebaptisms only goes back as far as these Anabaptist leaders who are on record as self-baptizing in the 16th century. As far as I known none claimed to be baptized by any secret tradition going back to the Apostles. Do you have a source for this?

The people who practiced rebaptism before the Reformation belonged to sects with beliefs that departed significantly from Christian orthodoxy.


cd6ba3 No.562213

>>562175

http://www.ancientrome.ru/ius/library/codex/theod/liber16.htm#6

Imperatoris Theodosii codex: Book 16, Title 6

16.6.4 The same Augustuses to Hadrianus, Praetorian Prefect.

We sanction by this law that if any person should hereafter be discovered to rebaptize, he shall be brought before the judge who presides over the province. Thus, the offenders shall be punished by the confiscation of all their property, and they shall suffer the penalty of poverty, with which they shall be afflicted forever. But if their children dissent from the depravity of the paternal association, they shall not forfeit the paternal inheritance. Likewise, if perchance they have been involved in the perversity of the paternal depravity and prefer to return to the Catholic religion, the right to acquire possession of such property shall not be denied them. (A.D. 405 febr. 12)

>>562198

>John Smyth

He was the first confessional baptist. Before him were the so-called "radicals" that disputed with Zwingli, and before them were the unorganized autonomous churches in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, England and Wales, and likely elsewhere. There is no starting point for these churches except for the Apostles and early church.

>The people who practiced rebaptism before the Reformation belonged to sects with beliefs that departed significantly from Christian orthodoxy.

Some did, some did not.

>Do you have a source for this?

A source for what exactly?

The most important thing is that you understand scripture on this matter, but I have plenty of historical sources at my disposal.


0658f2 No.562214

>>562162

>1 John 2:5

In what manner do you keep his word?


cd6ba3 No.562218

>>562214

The same way he told me to. Nice question btw


cd6ba3 No.562227

Bump test


8929ef No.562228

>>562213

>Some did, some did not.

Baptist Landmarkism and the Trail of Blood concept typically name the Montanists, Paulicians, Cathari, Waldenses, Albigenses, and Anabaptists as the true church. Which of these groups do you consider orthodox and which heretical and can you demonstrate their lineage and persistence from one to the other to the present day?

>A source for what exactly?

I'd like to see a source outlining how there is an uninterrupted provenance of adult baptism practiced from the Apostles to present day Baptists.


cd6ba3 No.562246

File: 84af8804c1ea43e⋯.png (24.85 KB, 1459x434, 1459:434, chartc.PNG)

>>562228

Well any group that resulted from a simple schism in the catholic church would take with it some errors. In particular, some of those groups you mentioned I believe were influenced by Baptists (even if they didn't call themselves that, the name isn't important, the doctrine is). That is, they were influenced by but not to be confused with actual Baptists.

Now first off when you refer to Anabaptists as one of your groups, you probably mean to say the specifically pacifist churches that organized in certain areas of Switzerland and Germany such as the Mennonites. Those were originally organized from some, but not from all of the independent churches, such as the ones I mentioned from Holland, England and Wales. It was in around 1523 that the first known organized activity among our churches started, but the act of organizing more than one church into an official "Baptist denomination" is pretty much a political thing and not all of us agree with it. Nonetheless, many have tried. The Mennonites were the early attempt at this and so they are sometimes known as "the Anabaptists" today, even though that was really a derogatory term going all the way back used against anyone who didn't accept infant baptism. Later attempts took on the name for themselves "Baptist" and yet these groups also were organized denominations. What we call IFB churches are not organized beyond the church unit. They plant a new church and then there are two independent churches. So the historical situation is kind of confusing if you haven't really gathered your thoughts on this.

Now as for the other groups you named, how many of these errors would be realized seems to vary from group to group. I've made a chart that shows the six schisms that, from what I think, are noteworthy for our purposes here. I believe that Catholic writers consciously tied up independent apolitical churches with these groups, as with Protestants today, which are also state church denominations by the way. They have a definite motive for doing so. And while we may have shared more in common in terms of doctrine with these disparate Churches, due to our influence, that doesn't mean we all believed the same thing. A lot of this was political in nature, because the Roman Catholics were more adversarial to our beliefs than other state churches. That's why the 413 death sentence law was eventually passed by Rome, and re-enacted by Justinian in 529. That establishes a pretty good motive to leave places under their political control.

Now it's hard to judge what a lot of these people really taught since they no longer exist, like the Paulicians. But it's pretty clear to me that what it's said that they taught is heretical, yet that isn't an issue because they weren't us. Also, I didn't include Cathari and Albigenses at all because they were pretty clearly Gnostics and not influenced by us. As for Montanists I have no idea. So there's my idea on all that.

>I'd like to see a source outlining how there is an uninterrupted provenance of adult baptism practiced from the Apostles to present day Baptists.

Well here's one neutral source I've posted here before. It's way before anything like the Trail of Blood (which by the way has questionable sources and I don't use or recommend it).

The Edinburgh Encyclopedia, Vol 3, p.251 (1830)

>It must have already occurred to our readers, that the baptists are the same sect of Christians which we formerly described under the appellation of ANABAPTISTS. Indeed, this seems to have been their great leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present day.

And I'll give you one more that agrees with me.

Robert Barclay, The Inner Life of the Religious Societies of the Commonwealth, pp.11-12

>As we shall afterwards shew, the rise of the "Anabaptists" took place long prior to the formation of the Church of England, and there are also reasons for believing that on the continent of Europe small hidden christian societies, who have held many of the opinions of the "Anabaptists," have existed from the times of the Apostles. In the sense of the direct transmission of Divine Truth, and the true nature of spiritual religion, it seems probable that these Churches have a lineage or succession more ancient than that of the Roman Church.


cd6ba3 No.562733

Bump?




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