/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>pour out water three times upon the head

heresy

You need to go fully under

Colossians 2:12

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

>Buried with him in baptism

You don't sprinkle dirt on someone to bury them

>>555030

>Didache

The people who wrote this would have KNOWN THE APOSTLES

>>555030

What counts as being underwater though? Of course, being entirely plunged in a body of water is the ideal, but what if circumstances prevent this?

Do you only ever baptize in bodies of water, such as lakes and seas? Because if not, then you do not follow the Scriptures, that only show baptism in such bodies of water, without saying that anything lesser is fine.

>>555031

>because it claims to be from someone that may have known the apostles means it really was

Also you realize there were heretics back then also

>What counts as being underwater though?

Fully underwater

Well they did'nt have many pools then and there's not really a diference between pool water(if you don't put chlorine in it) and a lake

also it does say you have to believe to be baptized which you don't believe since you do it to babies

Acts 8

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

>>555018

It means flowing. You don't have this expression in English?

>>555030

And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them.

Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water.

Of course immersion is preferable but it's about water and trinitarian formula, not mode of baptism itself. As St. Thomas explains:

Objection 2. Further, the Apostle says (Romans 6:3-4): "All we who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in His death: for we are buried together with Him, by Baptism into death." But this is done by immersion: for Chrysostom says on John 3:5: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost," etc.: "When we dip our heads under the water as in a kind of tomb, our old man is buried, and being submerged, is hidden below, and thence he rises again renewed." Therefore it seems that immersion is essential to Baptism.

On the contrary, It is written (Hebrews 10:22): "Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water."

I answer that, In the sacrament of Baptism water is put to the use of a washing of the body, whereby to signify the inward washing away of sins. Now washing may be done with water not only by immersion, but also by sprinkling or pouring. And, therefore, although it is safer to baptize by immersion, because this is the more ordinary fashion, yet Baptism can be conferred by sprinkling or also by pouring, according to Ezekiel 36:25: "I will pour upon you clean water," as also the Blessed Lawrence is related to have baptized. And this especially in cases of urgency: either because there is a great number to be baptized, as was clearly the case in Acts 2 and 4, where we read that on one day three thousand believed, and on another five thousand: or through there being but a small supply of water, or through feebleness of the minister, who cannot hold up the candidate for Baptism; or through feebleness of the candidate, whose life might be endangered by immersion. We must therefore conclude that immersion is not necessary for Baptism.

Reply to Objection 2. Christ's burial is more clearly represented by immersion: wherefore this manner of baptizing is more frequently in use and more commendable. Yet in the other ways of baptizing it is represented after a fashion, albeit not so clearly; for no matter how the washing is done, the body of a man, or some part thereof, is put under water, just as Christ's body was put under the earth.

>>555047

So to get one to actually say sprinkled with water you have to go back to Ezekiel when baptism didn't exist. Ha

And again it has to be fully underwater. no one is buried by pouring a little dirt on them.

>>555049

>So to get one to actually say sprinkled with water you have to go back to Ezekiel when baptism didn't exist.

<Ezekiel was not a prophet

<There was cleaning of sins by water (and Spirit) save baptism

<New Heart and Spirit was given before Christ

<it was possible to walk in grace before Christ

I swear to God, baptist exegesis is on New Age level.

>And again it has to be fully underwater.

Christ's burial is more clearly represented by immersion: wherefore this manner of baptizing is more frequently in use and more commendable. Yet in the other ways of baptizing it is represented after a fashion, albeit not so clearly; for no matter how the washing is done, the body of a man, or some part thereof, is put under water, just as Christ's body was put under the earth.

Or maybe:

Objection 3. Further, if Baptism is valid without total immersion of the body, it would follow that it would be equally sufficient to pour water over any part of the body. But this seems unreasonable; since original sin, to remedy which is the principal purpose of Baptism, is not in only one part of the body. Therefore it seems that immersion is necessary for Baptism, and that mere sprinkling is not enough.

Reply to Objection 3. The principal part of the body, especially in relation to the exterior members, is the head, wherein all the senses, both interior and exterior, flourish. And therefore, if the whole body cannot be covered with water, because of the scarcity of water, or because of some other reason, it is necessary to pour water over the head, in which the principle of animal life is made manifest.

And although original sin is transmitted through the members that serve for procreation, yet those members are not to be sprinkled in preference to the head, because by Baptism the transmission of original sin to the offspring by the act of procreation is not deleted, but the soul is freed from the stain and debt of sin which it has contracted. Consequently that part of the body should be washed in preference, in which the works of the soul are made manifest.

Nevertheless in the Old Law the remedy against original sin was affixed to the member of procreation; because He through Whom original sin was to be removed, was yet to be born of the seed of Abraham, whose faith was signified by circumcision according to Romans 4:11.

> no one is buried by pouring a little dirt on them

The rite of burial since ancient times includes pouring a little dirt on buried (or coffin) while saying "For dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return"

>>555030

Do Baptists allow the use of grape juice for communion?

>>555500 (Checked)

Something something new wine, something something drunks and dancing

>>555042

How many times do we have to tell you that we make adults confess their faith before baptism. You're go to verse does not state a principle for what is necessary in all baptisms

>>555047

It seems many Catholics are down for immersion, but the culture is just too strong for sprinkling. Have you seen any movements for more widespread baptism by immersion?

>>555811

It's rumoured we have one parish with a tank for immersion somewhere out west. However, the prayer book does say "who immerses or pours water upon" and the option the prayer book puts first is preferred, so in theory we are meant to be moving towards immersion

>>555841

(Anglican, obvs)

>>555018

Flowing water. John baptized Christ in a river, and the passage is simply stating that it isn't necessary, although it is preferred.

>>555030

>You don't sprinkle dirt on someone to bury them

And you don't dunk someone in dirt to bury them either.

>>555042

I'd rather trust someone who knew the apostles themselves and who could interpret the Bible first hand rather than some who lived 19 centuries later think he figured out how to interpret the Bible and basing it all off of his own authority. It's very likely that the person/community who wrote the Didache is the same Matthew wrote his Gospel to since the Didache puts a lot of literary dependence on Matthew. They probably knew Matthew well and were his disciples.