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File: a8d2d260aafc131⋯.jpg (469.34 KB, 1000x597, 1000:597, IMG_9785.jpg)

04c229 No.553895

Was thinking of attending an Antiochian Orthodox church for my introduction to Orthodoxy. However, upon further digging it appears that they are the "progressive" Orthodox. Orthobros is this true?

527db9 No.553897

You can tell by their outfits that they're phony.


04c229 No.553901

File: 4dfc8d14d33eb14⋯.png (55.4 KB, 600x338, 300:169, pastor-anderson-and-his-ar….png)

>>553897

Are you suggesting that real men wear ties?


29f630 No.553903

>>553901

real priests wear suits and sell insurance


c18c40 No.553914

>>553895

If you can't handle progress, turn off your computer. If not for scientific progress, you would not be here.


1fe059 No.553931

>>553895

On a side note about Antiochian Orthodoxy, Orthodox could you explain to me why do you need to depend on Rome's patriarch if St.Peter was supposedly a bishop at Antioch? Is their apostolic see split in half?


9f29e5 No.553937

File: 4f5c015a5bb2bca⋯.jpg (64.53 KB, 640x640, 1:1, toon town.jpg)

>>553901

>>553897

>see one of the Church Fathers who helped assemble the Bible, was tortured for defending the Trinity, Christ's divinity

>"I AIN'T LISTENIN TO NO MAN IN A FUNNY HAT AND A DRESS"

>proceeds to teach people to worship the bible as God because he thinks John 1:1 refers to the KJV


10c9b1 No.553954

>>553914

Scientific progress and social 'progress' are objectively opposite things. Thus it would not do to join a church that spreads lies.

As to your question OP I have no idea, I'm not Orthodox. I'm curious to see an answer myself.


f5bce0 No.553957

>>553895

> However, upon further digging it appears that they are the "progressive" Orthodox.

Care to share your sources for this? Aside from being one of the more convert friendly I havent seen any evidence of them being questionable


9c930e No.553959

Antiochian Churches seem very liberal but an Orthodox Church is an Orthodox Church if it is nearest to you go and don't worry about how "based" the parishioners are.


87b29a No.553961

File: bd326daa3390f01⋯.png (514.14 KB, 484x750, 242:375, BegomingOrdodox.png)

>>553895

>Was thinking of attending an Antiochian Orthodox church for my introduction to Orthodoxy

Great choice! If its a convert church that's probably the best, and if its an ethnic church that's pretty good too, the Arabs have been incredibly welcoming in my experience.

> However, upon further digging it appears that they are the "progressive" Orthodox.

Are you talking about Antiochians in general or a specific church? If your talking about Antiochians in general then I would say that my take on this issue is that it's part Greek and Slavic slander and part reality, which I will explain, but I'm going to do it right so bear with me. Sorry I've been wanting to get this off my chest for a while, and I think some could benefit here from the full rundown.

First here are the autocephalous (self-governing) churches with canonical jurisdictions in America:

1. Ecumenical Patriarchate

2. Patriarchate of Antioch

3. Patriarchate of Moscow

4. Patriarchate of Serbia

5. Patriarchate of Romania

6. Patriarchate of Bulgaria

7. Patriarchate of Georgia

8. Orthodox Church in America(whether this is an autocephalous church is debated)

Its also worth noting that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has four jurisdictions in America:

1a. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

1b. American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the USA

1c. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA

1d. Albanian Orthodox Diocese

And just for references here are the other autocephalous churches: Alexandria, Jerusalem, Cyprus, Greece, Poland, and Albania. I think the following quote can help us in understanding some church politics, it's from Timothy Ware's The Orthodox Church. "The Churches of Greece and Cyprus are Greek; four of the others - Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Poland - are Slav."

So we can see that many of the Churches in America fall into these two categories, Greek or Slavic. Only 1a above is really Greek, but they are also pretty large. The rest are Slavic except for the following above, 1d, 2, 5, and 7, and some would get butthurt for my including the OCA among the Slavic Churches, but that's how I feel and I'm persuaded I feel that way accurately.

The Albanians, 1d, I think are more Greek, but they are also tiny and the Orthodox in their home country got shoahed extremely thoroughly by communists, so I wouldn't really consider them as their own important players in American church politics. The Romanians, 5, weren't included as Slavic by Ware, but I would consider them Slavic for all Church politics purposes, but maybe I just don't know enough about them, they aren't the largest church either. The Georgians, 7, aren't very big either, and whether they can be categorized as Greeks or Slavs, anyone with a map can tell they're one of the two, and in Church politics they aren't a real big hitter.

So who really are the big players in American Church politics? The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America(GOA), the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America (AOA), the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), and the Orthodox Church in America(OCA). Some might argue against this, but I really feel that it is fair and that if the other churches want to be taken more seriously they need more of an American English presence.

As we saw above nearly every Church is either Greek or Slavic, with some border cases. Whats the one exception? The Antiochian Church, we;ll come back to this later.

Of the four big players the GOA is the Greek one and it has a lot of influence because it is very wide spread and is an Ecumenical Patriarchate jurisdiction. They are usually nice enough, but if you hear about Greeks shooing off non-Greeks and obsessing over ethnic bread and dancing they are probably who are being talked about. The most Slavic of the big players is ROCOR. They are usually nice enough, although I would honestly say less so than the GOA, and if you hear about Slavs shooing off non-Slavs and obsessing over ethnic alcohols and the collapse of the Soviet Union they are probably who are being talked about. The big player who is supposedly American is the OCA. They are probably my second favorite American jurisdiction and they are pretty American, but they have a Slavic background that they can't shake. They have historically been considered by many as the liberals of Orthodoxy, but much of that is because they didn't play by the muh Slavs muh communism narrative of ROCOR, who then slandered them.


87b29a No.553962

File: dbc6d90659a4ce3⋯.png (495.63 KB, 600x848, 75:106, ClipboardImage.png)

>>553961

The last big player is the one in question, and we really just aren't as comparable to the other Orthodox Churches as each are to each other. The Arabs are doing their own thing and didn't get as hooked by the narratives of Church politics as the other Churches. There's also a decent amount of convert churches that are Antiochian, this is largely due to some awesome bishops that took big risks while others were not willing to to bring questioning American Protestants into the Church. You can find stories of these in books like Becoming Orthodox by Peter Gilquist, which if I remember correctly documented some of the experiences of a group of Churches which formed as a gathering of Protestant Christians, originally drawing heavily from Campus Crusade, and gradually became more Orthodox as they studied Church history until they finally decided they needed to join the Orthodox Church.

This is the thing that makes criticisms of the Antiochian Church in America legitimate. Because we have a decent amount of converts we also have a decent amount of apostates and theological liberals, The first I would explain by saying that I think all the Churches in America have spiritual apostates, but in the more ethnic churches these people don't leave, they just come less often. As far as theological liberalism I think some this also is often an apostasy issue, as I think that theological liberals are more likely to stick around in the Antiochian church than in the Greek or Slavic churches. Certainly there are complaints to be had over theological liberalism in the Church, but I think the Antiochian Church does a better job at keeping people around so they can become more Orthodox theologically later, and I think this is better than scaring people off. There's also the problem that some consider anyone who isn't hyperdox the exact way they are as liberal, which is just dumb and unhelpful.

I've probably typed up too much over too little, but those are my preliminary thoughts on the issue, I might chime in again if I noticed I missed some stuff, which I probably did

Relevant links:

http://assemblyofbishops.org/

https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Church-Introduction-Eastern-Christianity/dp/014198063X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YC9489FYFACTQPEENRQH&dpID=51exHD4f7sL&preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=detail

https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Orthodox-Journey-Ancient-Christian/dp/1936270005


87b29a No.553964

File: 884e0f8ea3a188f⋯.png (137.4 KB, 250x664, 125:332, meemee.png)

>>553931

What are you saying here?

>>553957

>Care to share your sources for this?

I am also interested in this

>>553959

>Antiochian Churches seem very liberal

What makes you think this?

>don't worry about how "based" the parishioners are

This


1fe059 No.553973

>>553964

Why wait for 'ecumenicalize' with Rome for the see of Peter (so the orthodox church can start ecumenical councils), when there's a perfectly good see of Peter in Antioch?


87b29a No.553975

>>553973

I don't really get what your saying. There isn't really a pressing issue on the scale of Ecumenical Council worthy, and I don't agree with the premise that we couldn't have an ecumenical council right now if we had the need.


3fbdac No.553979

>>553895

>However, upon further digging it appears that they are the "progressive" Orthodox. Orthobros is this true?

Honestly, only as far as convert-friendliness goes. As far as actual parishioners go, I've found the AOA to actually be rather conservative. Arabs tend to be more conservative than Greeks (indeed, there's a stereotype of liberal East Coast Greeks among some Orthodox–akin to the sterotype of Irish-American "cafeteria Catholics"), and most of the converts at Antiochian parishes are mostly from evangelical protestant backgrounds and tend to have social and moral views from that background. Increased focus on convert outreach in the AOA means more theological liberals also end up joining compared to other parishes, but they're in the minority


c4d0f2 No.553989

oca is most "progressive"


1fe059 No.554000

>>553975

Stop recognizing the see of Peter in Rome if there's a person of the same position in Antioch!


f694e9 No.554009

I wouldn't worry about it too much since "progressive" by Orthodox standards is still relatively "conservative" by Evangelical Protestant standards.

Still from here in Oz it looks to me that the OCA is the most "progressive" of the major American jurisdictions and ROCOR the least, with the Greeks and Antiochians somewhere in the middle. But of course like I said this is relative to the other Orthodox jurisdictions, not to the general American community.

(Here in Oz it's ROCOR and the Serbs on the "conservative" side and the Greeks on the comparatively "Progressive" side; the Serbs are a lot bigger, while the Antiochians are much smaller and there's no OCA)


87b29a No.554018

File: 849ca4d902db23f⋯.png (210.35 KB, 318x499, 318:499, TheOrdodoxChurch.png)

>>554000

What are you even saying? Historically the Churches of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria have all been considered Petrine sees, it was even one of the reasons people didn't like talking about a pentarchy, as they didn't think it gave the Petrine sees enough credit. It's not like we only have 70 bishops out there, one for each of the apostles


1fe059 No.554028

>>554018

Nuke the western churches!


9e9c36 No.554031

>>553897

and lack of beards


739300 No.554033

File: 81c78f30de4253c⋯.jpg (14.98 KB, 250x250, 1:1, 7ddc6685e90bd43c063bac43ea….jpg)

>>553964

that pic lmao


fd09bc No.554043

My church is technically part of the Antiochian archdiocese. I definitely would not call it progressive. I would call it fucking awesome.


fd09bc No.554048

>>553962

>a group of Churches which formed as a gathering of Protestant Christians, originally drawing heavily from Campus Crusade, and gradually became more Orthodox as they studied Church history until they finally decided they needed to join the Orthodox Church

wow that's my church


29b1b4 No.554052

>>553895

It depends on the parish. If it's OCA, GOA, or AOA, the parishes located in the coastal metro areas on either coast will probably be very liberal, particularly if they have a lot of converts. Some AOA parishes are mostly converts, others are very much Arab ethnic enclaves. The OCA parish I go to is pretty conservative, but it is very white and Midwestern.

The most generally conservative jurisdictions would be ROCOR and the Serbian and Romanian churches.


a21187 No.554055

They're fine. As a convert to a Russian parish myself I'd say go Russian given the choice, but I'm also clearly biased here.

The Antiochans are easily the branch most friendly to converts. They're not free of problems, but no branch of the Church is. They're a great group of people.


c7806a No.554061

File: 53a11b1c5172d1f⋯.jpg (32.19 KB, 593x535, 593:535, 20lg.jpg)

File: 5698ad0c1da95e8⋯.jpg (37 KB, 250x333, 250:333, 8ccb506ba17daad8b874b26f19….jpg)

File: 058a7c9e8aef23e⋯.png (309 KB, 1584x1501, 1584:1501, 058a7c9e8aef23e2a4bdc19b01….png)


f49083 No.554099

>>553975

You guys haven't had an ecumenical council for 1000 years and theology can wildly differ from patriarchate to patriarchate (toll houses).

Stop larping that you don't need an ecumenical council and stop larping that you could if you wanted to for it has been dogmatised in council that the Pope's consent is required for valid council.


9c930e No.554108

>>553964

>What makes you think this?

Anticochians on reddit and other sites have been very anti russia and anti monarchist, and while tbh i still get on well with them and they aren't "liberal" in the same way you would think, from my perspective if you are anti monarchist you are a liberal. Although i would admit there is basically no antiochian presence in my country so i am just going off of those interactions.


9c930e No.554109

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>554099

how are your councils treating you buddy boy?


a56c7c No.554124

>>554061

>Castillians

>Orthodox


04c229 No.554134

>>553961

>>553962

Thank you, this was good info.


87b29a No.554161

File: 508bb0adbd2fb48⋯.png (152.08 KB, 342x285, 6:5, ClipboardImage.png)

>>554099

Melkites

daipas


fefa1a No.554195

>>554108

>anti-Russia

What did you mean by this? If you mean they look down upon Russian Orthodoxy, they are a Greek Patriarchate and some Greeks are a bit lofty in their view of the Slavs, but nothing too serious. If you meant they don’t think Putin is le based xD then, well, perhaps step outside of your political bubble and see that he’s no saint by any means.

>anti-monarchist

While obviously monarchism is a necessarily traditionalist position, republicanism (small r) doesn’t need to mean progressive/liberal. Portugal was as much a confessional state as Spain before the coup d’état.


a21187 No.554219

>>554099

>He's not aware that Holy Synods do basically the same thing anyways and we have those all the time because Ecumenical Councils are liturgically and formally tied into the law code of an empire that doesn't exist anymore

Please learn the basics before making criticisms.


02a65e No.562485

So after reading more about the AOA they sound like a pretty good bunch. However, I came across some older discussions on random Orthodox forums which alluded to the fact that the AOA has not taken an official position on allowing in Freemasons. What the heck is this? Is for real?


87b29a No.562509

>>562485

I'm no fan of freemasons, but are they really a thing anymore? Like, I know they still exist, but am I wrong in thinking they have fallen far in their popularity? Bishops only deal with actual problems most of the time


02a65e No.562514

>>562509

I don't think they are that big of a deal anymore, but I just find it odd and bit worrisome that the AOA has no position on the matter. Most every other Orthodox church has an established position on it, so it really makes me scratch my head.


87b29a No.562519

>>562514

What does it mean though to take no position on a matter that has been dealt with the same way by every other church that did. To my knowledge AOAs aren't hosting freemasons or fighting for them, they've already been dealt with by everyone else and there's no need to come out and virtue signal against a dying group


7f8aff No.562622

>>562514

The AOA has a much shorter history in the West than most, and its roots are in countries where Freemasonry was really a thing. Arabs never really had a presence in the Freemasons, and by the time the AOA started getting converts, Freemasonry was already dying and irrelevant (and most came from churches that already condemned Freemasonry anyway)

There simply was never any need for the AOA bishops to get together and discuss the issue


7f8aff No.562693

>>562622

*was never really a thing


76f13c No.562697

>>553914

You’re confusing traditionalism with primitivism. What’s funny is that primitivists often view traditionalist social norms and structures as novelties and inventions, and oppose them. Traditionalists and primitivists are really completely opposed to each other


c4d0f2 No.562702

>>553903

in a strip mall




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