/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I disagree with you about Catholicism, but even if you dislike the Church, don't change religions completely. JW are not Christians.

>>551241

Be very careful! Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian. They deny that Christ is God, and thus deny the Holy Trinity. Their shady Watchtower Organization re-translated the Bible to fit their theology (notably screwing around with the first few verses of the Gospel of John). If I were you, I'd turn around and never look back.

Keep in mind that the warm reception JWs give is part of their "milk before the meat" philosophy, like Mormons. They act kind and warming to interested strangers, presenting themselves as Christian and providing support for troubled visitors (the milk). Once you're hooked, they tell you to abandon everything that conflicts with their teachings, reveal the true insanity of their doctrine, and threaten to cut you off entirely if you question it (the meat). Like Scientology, they are a cult through and through – don't be fooled by the initial veneer!

So I would advise you to stay far away from their service. If Catholicism isn't doing it for you, perhaps explore an Orthodox or Protestant service nearby. God bless.

>>551241

Same anon here >>551247

> Less than ten people attend these now. And not one of them has approached my mother and I for even a simple hello in months.

>I'm not abandoning my congregation, but I definitely feel abandoned by them.

Do you go talk to them? No point sitting around twiddling your thumbs. It sounds like you aren't even making the effort.

>they've just opened up a small church in my town

They're not called Churches, they're 'Kingdom Halls'. Shit nigga.

Sounds like a lot of your problems with your church can be solved by communicating.

Well, that wikipedia page was a rather sobering experience. Thanks for the word of warning. Weird how I've never heard anything but an occasional joke about these people up till now.

>>551248

Its a clique of old woman who COMPLETELY IGNORE my mother whenever she says anything or tries to join in the conversation.

>>551245

>>551246

This. Jehovah’s Witnesses are massive heretics who don’t believe Jesus is God. Try changing parishes, or if you can’t be a Catholic anymore become Orthodox or a legit trinitarian Protestant. But don’t reject Christ just because JW’s are friendly to you.

Well thank you all for your warnings. I already gave my Word that I would attend but at least I know what I'm stepping into now.

>>551246

>(notably screwing around with the first few verses of the Gospel of John)

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Revelations 22:18-19

>>551241

OP… that's insane.

The people in this thread are right: The JWs aren't even Christian. They don't believe in the real Jesus - they think He is the archangel Michael! They think Jesus is a created being! They're so off that it would be laughable if it weren't utterly tragic.

Look, I'm not a big fan of Catholicism; I believe the Catholics have abandoned real Faith in Jesus in favor of tradition, and have "went the way of Cain" - off to establish their own righteousness through "good works," rather than Rest in what Jesus has accomplished for us. But… goodness gracious… they're miles ahead of the JWs, in terms of doctrine.

HERE, OP: Do yourself a HUGE favor - the biggest favor you possibly could… Look into the "Free Grace" movement. I am 1000% sure that they've got the very simple message - which is, as the Bible somewhat understates it, "Good News" - of Jesus, and what He has accomplished on your behalf, as correct as anyone. When you look into it, I trust that it will be as if all the pieces have finally fallen into place, and you see the simple truth that God means exactly what He says, when He says we are Saved by Grace, through Faith, and it is not of ourselves - not one bit - lest any of us should boast. One merely needs to look upon Jesus on the Cross, just as the Hebrews had merely to look upon the brazen serpent that Moses lifted up, to be ABSOLUTELY PERMANENTLY, ETERNALLY SAVED, and to pretend that one single thing that we do - one single "good work" of ours - plays any role whatsoever in our Salvation is to depart from Grace altogether. It is truly ALL about Jesus!

But… the JWs? That's like Satan's Hamster Wheel of World's Religions: Extreme Edition

>>551241

>>551699

Here's a summation of the issues:

https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/what-is-free-grace-theology/

…and appended should be a debate that really changed my mind - even my worldview. It s a debate between James White (who, prior to watching this, I had held in very high esteem. He has since proven himself not worth the effusive praise that gets heaped upon him, by his conduct with buddying up to Islam) and someone I has never heard of prior, Dr. Bob Wilkin. I was fully expecting this to be another trouncing by White. Well, I was right about the "trouncing" part - only White was the recipient of that trouncing! It was such a complete and total blowout that you really have to watch it to see what I mean; my words won't do it justice. Watch what happens when "Mr. Sola Scriptura" eventually gives up on using the Bible almost altogether, and resorts to quoting endless Church Counsels, Statements of Faith, etc. This really, finally made me understand that - surprise! - God means exactly what He says - and what He says is truly, truly "Good News" in the extreme!!!

I HIGHLY encourage you - and everyone else reading this - to WATCH THAT DEBATE!

>>551241

Hey OP, just so you know, JWs don't believe in prayer. Also, taking the communion is only restricted to the so-called 144,400 so if they catch you taking communion you are basically the equivalent of being "Clear" in Scientology. Also they may be friendly to you now, but if you decide to leave JW, you will be shunned and you basically lose all your social support and network (see attached vid). They also believe once you die, your soul is obliterated no matter your belief and that at resurrection God simply takes your memories and re-creates you, so JWs have this existential crises thinking if they will even exist into eternity. Ask them this, but to be honest, they probably changed their doctrine for the gorillionth time. Also the reason why JWs act the way they do is because they literally believe any day tomorrow can be "Armageddon" (which is unbiblical) and if you're not a believer when "Armageddon" happens your soul will be obliterated but if you naturally die (or die refusing blood transfusion) before that day, then you still have a "second chance," so that fear is what keeps them locked in. And they have their own perversion of the Bible called the New World Order Translation and justify that using the same line of thinking as Mormons and other cults do claiming the Bible has always been "mis-translated." You simply can't win with JWs, but if you choose to go with them, well then, go ahead and eat that forbidden fruit, that's your choice. In an ironic sense, JWs fear "Armageddon" more than they fear God and that's what keeps them working hard, because ultimately they believe in a works-based salvation like Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and all the other false religions.

JWs are not Christian. Read your Bible.

>>551699

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (((IS)))

DEAD

>>551766

So is fraudulent, works-based counterfeits WITHOUT a single, twisted verse from James.

James is speaking about being justified before men. You might also be interested in knowing that there are about 5 different definitions for "sozo" (save).

I can reconcile the passage from James with the hundreds of other passages in the Bible which speaks of Salvation being BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, QUITE APART FROM WORKS.

Can YOU? Can YOU reconcile your twisted use of the more obscure James passage with the HUNDREDS of explicit, perfectly clear verses saying the opposite of what you're saying???

For these reasons, it always cracks me up to hear this twisted argument. And there's never any question what verse it is you're going to be twisting; you have like, what, ONE?? lol

What separates man from rabbit is the concept of truth. A man will be able to reason, and will be forced to act according to Truth. A rabbit cannot conceive of such a concept, and runs to what he finds to be comfortable. Here you have a faltering church that preaches truth, versus a church (a cult) that preaches a comfortable lie.

Are you a man or a rabbit?

>>551699

>>551725

>Ye shall know them by their fruits

Behold the fruit of Easy Believism!

>>551897

>You might also be interested in knowing that there are about 5 different definitions for "sozo"

And which is non-salvific?

>I can reconcile the passage from James with the hundreds of other passages in the Bible which speaks of Salvation being BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, QUITE APART FROM WORKS

I can too, the problem is you reject both because both speak of justification by a living faith alone, while you believe in justification by a dead faith

>Can YOU?

I know I can, because I believe both what Paul said in Romans 4 and what he said in Romans 7

JW = Arianism 2.0

>>551897

Can a dead faith

SAVE

(((You))) ?

Jehovah's Witnesses are the only correct form of Christianity out there. I respect Mormonism for attempting to be totally incorrect but make a white nationalist cult instead.

But JW is correct. It's good to be correct. Good to see a Catholic come to his senses about that satanic religion and turn to the Father.

>>552125

>be Catholic

>never read Bible

>learn about witches and 350 different types of demons

>open Bible

>none of that shit is in the there

>study your ass off on ancient languages

Congratulations, you're now a JW.

>>552117

>Good to see a Catholic come to his senses about that satanic religion and turn to the Father.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also (1John 2:23)

By DENYING the truth of Who Jesus IS, you deny Him altogether. You no more have the Father than does a Muslim, who will tell you that "oh, sure! I believe in Jesus!"

I usually tell them, "I believe in Muhammad, too - just like you! He works down at the gas station by me. Nice guy; always goin' on about Allah and how much he loves him. Yup, that Muhammad is a pretty cool guy, etc."

>>552130

>>study your ass off on ancient languages

is this a joke?

http://www.bible-researcher.com/metzger.jw.html

>>552141

>it's denial of Jesus to not say he is the God of the Old Testament

LOL, stop posting this retarded shit.

>>552158

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58 - note how He BROKE THE RULES OF GRAMMAR to say it!!!)

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24)

But he said to them, “I AM; do not be afraid (John 6:20)

sounds totally like the Archangel Michael, doesn't it?

and WHAT DOES HEBREWS 1:5 SAY AGAIN?

>>552158

One more question - No, TWO more questions:

1.) Is Jesus good?

2.) How many SAVIORS are there? If only ONE, then WHO IS IT? "Jehovah"? Or JESUS?

>>552168

>he broke the rules of grammar!

You think Jesus said it in English? Or that languages are like codes, and they are directly translatable? Jesus is speaking in a riddle. Jehovah said to Moses that his own name is "I AM". Jesus is not necessarily speaking literally in the first person. He could've said "Before Abraham was, THERE IS JEHOVAH,"

but Jesus's skill was speaking in such a way that it caused you to think about things in multiple ways.

>Hebrews

Keep throwing out heretical apocrypha, you sound like a real genius.

>>552169

1.) Being a man, Jesus strove for goodness.

2.) Jehovah is not a savior, Jehovah has set existence in motion. There have been many people anointed as "saviors" in the histories and Old Testament.

>>552197

>You think Jesus said it in English?

You are being deliberately obtuse. OF COURSE He didn't say it in English - but tenses work the same in any language. Let me attempt to clear this up:

If Jesus WAS CREATED AT SOME POINT IN THE PAST, He would NOT have said, "before Abraham was, I AM ." He would have said, "before Abraham was, I was. " THE TENSES WOULD MATCH. This is how it works in ANY language.

Now, go ahead - play the obtuse game with me again, and pretend you don't see the obvious.

> He could've said "Before Abraham was, THERE IS JEHOVAH,"

note that you DIDN'T say "was," but "IS." WHY?

> Keep throwing out heretical apocrypha, you sound like a real genius.

so, Hebrews is "heretical apocrypha"?? SERIOUSLY???

> 1.) Being a man, Jesus strove for goodness.

more word games. He "strove for goodness"??? Well, DID HE MAKE IT?????????????

WAS HE, OR WASN'T HE, good?????

>>552209

Except you're wrong. Tenses are very funny things, especially when you're talking about language hybrid of both Hebrew and Greek translated into Latin, then English.

>He wouldn't have said I AM

How fucking dense are you? (((I AM))) is the name of God. Jesus is making a play on words, but apparently you're too stupid to get it. Before there was Abraham, there was (((God))), whose name is (((I AM))).

>SERIOUSLY???

Yes, Hebrews is a BS epistle with no known author. It was not actually written by Paul.

>was Jesus good?

Jesus was a good man.

>>553061

>that formatting

Drinking yourself into a stupor is a sin, anon

>>551241

>I am planning to attend one of their Wednesday services just to check it out.

This would be a grave sin.

>>553061

>Yes, Hebrews is a BS epistle with no known author. It was not actually written by Paul.

Well we worship a different God then apparently. After all, you JWs lump us Christians with Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, etc. I don't know why you guys won't just leave us alone and go about knocking on doors waiting for Armageddon. In a way, your cult even promotes suicide by refusing blood transfusions because it's better to die naturally than to be caught off-guard by Armageddon.

At the end of the day, you're the fool for still believing in the Watchtower Society after all their failed prophecies and predictions. You and your New World Order translation Job 6:6 NWT - Will tasteless things be eaten without salt, Or is there any taste in the slimy juice of marshmallow? I'm sorry for you that you're this lost, the fact that your Watchtower Society doesn't believe in prayer, that your hope is only affiliating with the 144,000 humans who may be pedophiles and homosexuals themselves. I pity you.

>>553061

You believe in a "God" Who was so weak that He wasn't able to stop at least one who book from entering His Word and masquerading as if it was of Divine Authorship???

When your doctrine is so bad that you have to actually disown and disavow an entire Book of Sacred Scripture, it just may be time to reconsider your theology.

>Except you're wrong. Tenses are very funny things, especially when you're talking about language hybrid of both Hebrew and Greek translated into Latin, then English.

Tenses are tenses, period. There is absolutely no reason on Earth that Jesus would NOT have just said, "I was," after "before Abraham was," if He were "a created being" with an origin at some point in the past. They would be the same tense, and the fact that they're not should stick out like a sore thumb obvious to even the dullest reader.

> How fucking dense are you? (((I AM))) is the name of God. Jesus is making a play on words, but apparently you're too stupid to get it. Before there was Abraham, there was (((God))), whose name is (((I AM))).

It must be me…. I'm just "fucking dense." You got me. I tried to pretend like I wasn't a complete and total idiot, but you caught me. Soooo….. Please explain this "play on words" for us. As "dense" as I might be, I do happen to recognize that "I AM" is God's Name, and Jesus is here using it. So - considering the flow of the conversation as recorded in Scripture:

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him…

And since I'm so dumb, maybe you can explain to me why that set them off so bad that the tried to KILL HIM right after He said it. I mean, if He was merely claiming to have lived long before Abraham, they'd just think He was CRAZY, no? We don't KILL crazy people; we feel bad for them.

Can you explain all this stuff to me? As you've said, I am "fucking dense" and "too stupid to get it."

>>553234

>one who book

Whoops, I meant:

>one WHOLE book

You know how us stupid asses can be! Thanx so much for your patience

>>551241

I'm also interested in attending a Kingdom Hall meeting and potentially joining JW. Was approached by a JW guy handing out samples of their "Watchtower" publication while at the hospital the other day, read through it and was intrigued.

>>553356

>>551245

>>551246

>>551247

>>551253

>>553356

Read up about them before they coax you into joining their cult. They're extremely heterodox and believe ridiculous things like Jesus began to rule in heaven in 1914 and is the Archangel Michael, that the saved is limited to the 144,000 elect of Revelation within their cult, that the cross is an evil pagan symbol and birthdays, Christmas and Easter and basically every other holiday is evil pagan worship, that Lazarus didn't actually raise from the dead and a whole bunch of complete bullshit that they have to make their own Bible "translations" to justify.

>>553397

>But the other way around is quite dangerous too

This isn't what the reformers taught. They, with the man in the video, would tell her that her actions proove that she isn't saved, and if she wanted to be saved she would need to repent and believe.

>>551253

This was an excellent choice in videos to post here. I was a big fan of Dr. Martin back when he was alive and did regular appearances on the John Ankerberg show.

Although it's totally off-topic here, Walter Martin was one of the very few to understand the whole phony "alien invasion" that the world's Elite have planned, and the Biblical prophecies of it.

>>551906

Dude… God Bless this man for having a burden to stop this holocaust, but….

….WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THIS VIDEO HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID?????

Seriously - How is this intended to counter the plain and simple Gospel that is ubiquitously perverted by self-righteous quacks and charlatans who feel that their "good works" is what somehow gets them into Heaven (though that Jesus guy is… you know… important and even necessary and all - He's just not sufficient in and of Himself).

Is it that the woman shouts, like the typical person who is totally clueless about the Gospel, that there's nothing she can do to bar her from Heaven - a remark she makes without even the pretext of first saying she has placed ALL her hope in Jesus and what HE did?????

This is the stawiest strawman in strawsviles.

>>553061

>hurr durr Jesus can't be OT God

OT God:

Romans 14:11:

>for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

Isaiah 45:22-23:

>“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

Jesus:

Philippians 2:10:

>so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

OT God:

Isaiah 44:6:

>Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Jesus:

Revelation 22:12-13:

>“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

OT God:

Isaiah 43:11:

>I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Jesus:

Luke 2:11:

>For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Ephesians 5:23:

>For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

… Literally the entire NT

OT God:

Isaiah 44:24:

>Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Jesus:

John 1:3:

>All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16:

>For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

OT God:

Isaiah 40:3:

>A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Jesus:

John 1:23:

>John replied in the words of the prophet Isaiah: "I am a voice shouting in the wilderness, Clear the way for the LORD's coming!'"

Etc. You are illiterate.

Also - I thought non Christians were not allowed here, mods? Why does someone who calls out Mary worship in another thread get a warning, but this guy who os outright admitting that he's not a Christian doesn't?

>>553511

>WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THIS VIDEO HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID?????

These posts >>551699 >>551725 promote a false gospel. This video >>551906 is the fruit of that false gospel

Listen OP, I was a JW for almost 20years. Excuse my incorrect grammar, my native language is German…

Please be aware that anyone who talks bad of JW, or rather anyone who doesn't praise this cult, is and must be a tool of Satan who want's to hinder everyone from becoming a JW.

If a new guy like you would come to the kingdom hall, we all would greet him, be very friendly etc. The goal would be, that he learns all the doctrines; but before that we would have to make sure that he understands how stupid, ridiculous and blasphemic other beliefs are, especially the catholic belief. (Trinity, praying to Mary, angels whatever, praying with pictures/statues, the pope, confessing, undying soul, life in heaven, more than one archangel, etc, … JW literally hate all that.)

So one of the JWs would start a bible study with the new guy. But it's not really a "bible"-study but a JW-book-study. Some JWs in Brooklyn wrote these books and they show how the JW-believe is the one and only true believe because it bases completely on the bible.

Now you may ask, why are their interpretations of the bible so much better than all the others from all the other devotions?

The answer is simple: It's because God Jehova Himself chose them as His organization on earth. Every single religion expect JW is led by Satan himself. It's true. And they all will die in Armageddon. Can't wait.

JW think, they are Gods chosen people… like the new Israelites. You can expect the same arrogance.

Because of that, everything in the watchtower and the books has to be accepted as truth. Yes, they make mistakes (they even acknowledge that) but since they are inspired by God and you are not, you must not question their teachings. If you find discrepancies, too bad… just be humble, shut up and wait until the God-inspired elite recognize their mistake and change their teachings. They will sell these changes as "brighter light" or "new light" to the sheeps. And they eat it. Every time. I sure did.

Let's go back to our bible study guy. After countless hours of book-study, they will expect him to get baptized. If he knows and beliefs all their dogmas and is ready to dedicate himself not only to God Jehovah but also to His one and only organization on earth, then baptism is the next step.

So what happens after the baptism?

He is now expected to recruit more members. Of course he did that before. But now, as a real JW, it's expected more than ever. Because recruiting new members = love God & love thy neighbor.

He will knock on peoples doors countless hours every week to show them the true light, the one way to eternal life (on earth). And after hundreds or thousands of hours he will find a poor soul who hungers for answers. And our freshly-baptized guy will have all the answers. He will answer every single question. And if he's lucky we have one more sheep in our herd soon.

Our guy will live this new JW-life and he probably won't live an unhappy one. Because he has a goal; he has something meaningful to do every day; he belongs to a special group which gets much hate from the outside so they will stick together even more; he beliefs in a bright future; he secretly sees himself and his group as superiour:

We see, they are blind. We are guided by God, they are misguided by Satan. We are chosen, they are damned. We will live, they will perish.

…

But sometimes at night when lying in bed, unable to sleep, he will recognize the same old void in his heart. Sure, he's a JW now but all he did was to exchange a set of dogmas for another one. He follows a belief to kill the emptiness inside him but it only works temporarly.

Inside nothing really has changed.

>>553527

>eternal life (on earth)

I've never heard of this before, doesn't their "bible" have Matthew 24:35?

>>553519

"Those posts" are mine, and they promote the VERY Gospel, which again, is constantly mocked and derided by charlatans who are, for all their lip service to Jesus and God's Word, trusting ultimately IN THEIR OWN WORKS, because they try to mix and mingle the GRACE of God with their own pretend merit - whereas GOD ALLOWS NO SUCH THING!

It was when I finally realized that it really, truly is all about Jesus and what HE did FOR me, and that I cannot supplement His Work one whit, and that God Loved me without measure to Save me with so great a Salvation, that I genuinely WANTED to do His Will - not in order to get to Heaven, but because I'm going there PERIOD, solely because of His Awesome Grace and Love!

You - like the rest of the religious world - have it EXACTLY BACKWARDS.

>>553533

>trusting ultimately IN THEIR OWN WORKS

Evidently unlike you, I am not trusting in my righteous deed of belief

>You - like the rest of the religious world - have it EXACTLY BACKWARDS

No, my friend, I recognize the biblical gospel which Jesus Himself preached, "Repent and believe for the kingdom of God is at hand".

>>553534

>Evidently unlike you, I am not trusting in my righteous deed of belief

>unlike you

You're not following the discussion here, are you? Seems you don't understand the issues at hand.

> No, my friend, I recognize the biblical gospel which Jesus Himself preached, "Repent and believe for the kingdom of God is at hand".

Tell me: What is your understanding of what that word ("repent") actually means?

Do you understand that God Himself "repents" more than anyone else in the Bible?

Are you suggesting that one must "repent of sins" in order to be Saved? If so, how many sins must one repent of? ALL of them? Do YOU claim to have repented of ALL of your sins???

Back to that part where I am the one trusting in my own "good works"….

>>553541

ALSO: As I have stated above, the ONLY Book of the Bible which has as its stated purpose the evangelization and Salvation of new souls for Jesus Christ is the Gospel of John.

Please show me where we are told that we must "repent of our sins" in order to be Saved FROM THE GOSPEL OF JOHN.

OR, you can claim that John failed miserably in conveying the Gospel - since he doesn't even mention repenting of sins anywhere in his Gospel

>>553541

>What is your understanding of what that word ("repent") actually means?

"Change mind"

>Do you understand that God Himself "repents" more than anyone else in the Bible?

Do you know that God, as God, is incapable of proper repentance, since repentance means "a change of mind"?

>Are you suggesting that one must "repent of sins" in order to be Saved? If so, how many sins must one repent of? ALL of them?

You are between two poles. One is Christ, the other is sin. You cannot face both at the same time, and to move toward one is the same as moving away from the other. If a person is unrepentant of their sins, they have never met Christ.

<If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

1 John 1:6

>Do YOU claim to have repented of ALL of your sins???

Yes I do, and I am always repentant toward my sin. While once I loved sin, I was washed, I was sanctified, and I was justified.

>Back to that part where I am the one trusting in my own "good works"

Yes, you are. You said >>553511 "placed ALL her hope in Jesus and what HE did", clearly showing that you do not trust purely in the righteous deeds which Jesus Christ worked, but in your own assent that Jesus Christ worked those righteous deeds as well.

>>553542

>Please show me where we are told that we must "repent of our sins" in order to be Saved FROM THE GOSPEL OF JOHN

John 8:12

<Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

You wanna try and explain to me how you can do that without repentance?

John is not the only book all about the gospel. Galatians is a defense of the gospel. Does Paul here preach a false gospel, when he says "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires"?

>>553551

>>not knowing that repenting is works

WHOA… Did I, a Free Grace Believer, just agree with a Catholic??

Having said that, the issue seems pretty clear, here!

Repenting of sins IS a WORK!

See Jonah 3:10

And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Thus showing that:

1.) Even GOD "repents;" the word does not automatically imply "of sins;" it means "to change one's mind"

2.) To repent of sins is a WORK!

>>553558

Oh wait; he's obviously a false-flagging Baptist, lol

Nevertheless, the point is made.

>>553552

In response to my question of:

>Please show me where we are told that we must "repent of our sins" in order to be Saved FROM THE GOSPEL OF JOHN

You say:

>John 8:12

>Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

'WHO IS the LIGHT and the LIFE?????

You have failed at answering me, and succeeded at showing you are unfamiliar with Scripture! Way to go!

>>553558

>Repenting of sins IS a WORK!

Here's another important thing you're leaving out, anon

SO IS FAITH

The word 'work' means 'an act of will' (at least in scripture). A work is just something you do, since you do faith, it is a work. Properly speaking, faith does not justify at all. No saint is justified on the basis of any righteous action of theirs, properly justification is by the merits of Jesus Christ alone. When we (by which I mean those who support the Protestant Reformation, not those who stand against it like yourself) say we are justified by faith alone, that is only in an instrumental sense, in that faith and faith alone acquires the righteousness of Christ.

>>553561

>'WHO IS the LIGHT and the LIFE?????

To that I ask, who is the darkness? Obviously no one, the light of life is a quality which is given to "Whoever follows me".

>You have failed at answering me, and succeeded at showing you are unfamiliar with Scripture! Way to go!

Well done anon, I've seen many people reject a text of scripture before but few so childishly as you

>>553562

Excuse me, but did you just argue that faith is a work??

You DO realize that in the Book of Romans, for example, all throughout these two things are contrasted, right?????? They are used as mutually exclusive ideas, when it comes to how one can be Justified!

>>553567

>You DO realize that in the Book of Romans, for example, all throughout these two things are contrasted, right??????

Yes I do, and that is because Paul was not a synergist

>They are used as mutually exclusive ideas, when it comes to how one can be Justified!

And why is that?

>>553565

>To that I ask, who is the darkness? Obviously no one, the light of life is a quality which is given to "Whoever follows me".

To which, I answer with Scripture:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14:6)

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (John 8:12)

shall HAVE

NOT "a quality of…"

a POSSESSION!

Try again

>>553584

>To which, I answer with Scripture

Yes you answer with a scripture in a different context

>NOT "a quality of…"

>a POSSESSION!

A possession of a quality

>Try again

Ok, I put forward John 8:12

<Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

You wanna try and explain to me how you can do that without repentance?

>>553575

>was not a synergist

This is hilarious. All other arguments aside, you do realize that "synergist" is at least a real word, whereas "monergist" is a made-up word, right? You attach meaningless words or phrases to things from completely outside Scripture, and this is meant to be a substitute for actual, rational discussion based on the Bible. As an ex-Calvinist, I can appreciate that, lol

>>553592

>NOT "a quality of…"

>>a POSSESSION!

>A possession of a quality

>>Try again

huh? syntax error, dude. You are pretending that i somewhere shifted the goal posts, instead of owning up to the fact that Scripture does not agree with you

>>553592

also:

>You wanna try and explain to me how you can do that without repentance?

Sure - again, it is a possession given to the Believer, as made clear by the Scripture. Why do you not see this? This is like JWs saying that the verse where Jesus is called "good," and He replies that none is good but God, supposedly "proves" that Jesus is not God!

It's absolute Spiritual blindness on your part

>>553532

Literally 144.000 JW will be the only ones to go to heaven. Some are already there yet. All the other JW will stay on earth and live there forever. So they believe.

In their eyes the Matthew-text only strengthens the fact that God's word lasts forever. JW say it doesn't mean that the earth will be gone one day. It's more like… the earth lasts eternally but God's word lasts even longer than that.

>>553598

>this is meant to be a substitute for actual, rational discussion based on the Bible

It's ironic you should say that considering both this post and the one beneath it and a good deal of the third are just empty words that contribute nothing to the discussion at all.

>>553606

>Sure - again, it is a possession given to the Believer, as made clear by the Scripture

It is a possession in the sense it is something they possess, however it is a trait which is within them. But that's not the point, my point is how can you "not walk in darkness" without repentance

>>553592

The very fact that you think the Light of Life - which is the LORD HIMSELF - is somehow an endogenous quality of the Believer, rather than exogenous possession in the form of Jesus Himself, speaks volumes and says everything about why you are wrong on this, prideful, self-righteous, still in your sins

>>553622

The light of life comes from Him who is the light and the life. You are trying to read John 14 into John 8, but in reality the context for both is John 1.

>>553654

The verses I quoted say that Jesus *IS* the Light of the world, and the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

What I am *NOT* doing is claiming that ANY of those things are endogenous products of the Believer's own personal merit/good deeds. They're NOT. Neither are they result of the Believer's having "repented of sins; again, they are terms for the Lord Himself.

It really is that simple.

>>553614

>however it is a trait which is within them

So, it is your position that the Believer - through his own repenting of sins and/or his own good deeds - produces a "trait" that is JESUS HIMSELF? You're making an absolute hash of Scripture, here.

>But that's not the point, my point is how can you "not walk in darkness" without repentance

It has nothing to do with repentance FROM SINS, and one can repent of sins and STILL walk in darkness!!!! The Pharisees would regularly repent of any sins they committed; they still walked in darkness, because they HAD (possession) not the LIGHT (Jesus).

Again, you are making a hash of Scripture.

Look, i think I can tell that the gears are turning for you, and you are starting to wonder why John didn't just come straight out and state that we MUST "repent of sins" IN ORDER TO be Saved. Why, IF your strange twisting of Scripture is true (and it's not), would he be so obscure and cryptic and oblique, since the stated purpose of his Gospel is so that men might BELIEVE and be Saved? I think I an safely say that you're at least wondering about it. It's like pointing out to a baptismal regenerationist that John doesn't mention a Believer's baptism, either.

PLEASE, my friend, watch THE WHOLE of the debate i posted above between White and Wilkin, and give me your thoughts afterwards on what took place there.

>>553527

>JW think, they are Gods chosen people… like the new Israelites. You can expect the same arrogance.

See, this is the main point why people don't like JWs. I can have Mormon friends even though Mormonism is not Christian. However, I can never befriend a JW due to the way they act, and that's a real shame they aren't able to look at themselves in the mirror and think critically.

And yes, the part where deep down inside they are empty and miserable is a real thing. We need to pray for them.

>>553527

I guess that's what happens when you don't believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

>>553677

>The verses I quoted say that Jesus *IS* the Light of the world, and the Way, the Truth, and the Life

Which, as I pointed out, has John's prologue as its backround

>What I am *NOT* doing is claiming that ANY of those things are endogenous products of the Believer's own personal merit/good deeds. They're NOT. Neither are they result of the Believer's having "repented of sins

And neither am I. I said that "the light of life" is an internal quality. It is a state of being.

>>553683

>So, it is your position that the Believer - through his own repenting of sins and/or his own good deeds - produces a "trait" that is JESUS HIMSELF?

See, when you ask questions like this, this is how I know you were never a Calvinist. You may have called yourself a Calvinist, you may have thought yourself a Calvinist, but if you actually understood Reformed theology you would not be confused like this. No, anon, someone does not receive the light of life by something they do, I believe regeneration precedes faith, which you would know if you ever understood what you claim to have believed.

>one can repent of sins and STILL walk in darkness

No they can't. To walk in darkness is to love sin and hate the light. It is to be full of darkness, but one who is truly repentant is filled with the light.

>The Pharisees would regularly repent of any sins they committed

Firstly, this is false, there are cases in scripture of pharisees committing a sin and not repenting because they deceive themselves that it isn't a sin. Secondly, true, biblical repentance (which is repentance unto life) is a change of mind not from a sin but from sinfulness itself

>they still walked in darkness, because they HAD (possession) not the LIGHT (Jesus)

They still walked in darkness because they hated God. When John says that "in Him is no darkness at all", is that about some vague "posession" or an ontological quality?

>Look, i think I can tell that the gears are turning for you, and you are starting to wonder why John didn't just come straight out and state that we MUST "repent of sins" IN ORDER TO be Saved

You couldn't be more wrong

>Why, IF your strange twisting of Scripture is true (and it's not), would he be so obscure and cryptic and oblique, since the stated purpose of his Gospel is so that men might BELIEVE and be Saved

Because it is written so men would believe and be saved. It is sola fide, not solus assensus.

>I think I an safely say that you're at least wondering about it

I'll be honest with you anon, a few minutes ago, when I first read this part of this post, I laughed. What I actually believe is that our discussion has done a very good job of demonstrating that your false gospel is just that, since you cannot deal with the biblical text. So now I implore you, be reconciled to God. Repent and believe for the kingdom of God is at hand.

>PLEASE, my friend, watch THE WHOLE of the debate i posted above between White and Wilkin

I have, which is why was astounded that you thought Wilkin won. As if your belief that Wilkin "trounced" White was insufficient to establish that you understood the debate irrationally, this statement was telling

<Watch what happens when "Mr. Sola Scriptura" eventually gives up on using the Bible almost altogether, and resorts to quoting endless Church Counsels, Statements of Faith, etc.

Any rational person would understand that what White was doing was refuting the idea that he believes in being saved by works and Wilkin believes in being saved by faith alone because for "faith alone" to have any meaning it must be understood in light of its historical usage. White was not appealing to these things and these men and saying "Well the magisterium has spoken now shut up and get in line", he was showing the disjunction between the cheap gracers and those actually coined the phrase "sola fide".

>>553420

Yup, we can tell immediately that she has made manifest she was not of us. 1 John 2:19.

Understanding the concept is not enough. Even if she cited all the correct verses, she clearly doesn't possibly believe them (at least not yet) as she's legitimately attempting to justify this murder.

>>553567

Faith is a gift of God. It's not a good work in the sense you're thinking because you didn't do anything to merit or earn it, however it is still true that it can be resisted by the unsaved.

So, while recognizing this and Philippians 2:13, we can say that election was conditioned on faith, but that only through that gift of faith was it made possible to become free from sin and to enjoy the state I think is best described in Romans 7:22. And also that it is possible for a believer to lapse into sin, as Romans 7 describes, but only while we are still in the flesh. And God will chastise us for doing so (Hebrews 10:6, 1 Cor 11:32) instead of potentially recognizing and rewarding what was done THROUGH HIM.

>>553719

That's exactly what I said: Faith is not a work. The are contrasted, and not equated, in Scripture

>>553223

huge if true

just wondering about this. can you post a source