/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

>>547907

There were like 3 people that explained this verse to you in the other thread.

>>547906

There's no applause in liturgy, what are you on about

>>547902

whats that?

>>547912

Excus me? Clapping during mass is valid and licit. VII says so, and if you don't agree, you're a sedevacantist.

True tbh

>>547906

As for the Ratzinger quote, I'll redirect you to:

https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=684

And even if it turned out that instituting NO was indeed a mistake, it's still licit, valid and holy.

>Stop dancing.

Is this an American thing? Never seen a liturgical dance in my life. It's prohibited in Western nations, if I understand it correctly, so if people do it it's not the Church that is to be blamed.

>>547907

That Muslims believe in our God has been taught already long before the council.

>>547917

When I first really started reading the Bible one of the things I found surprising is how much dance was a part of temple worship. I wouldn't recommend it myself as it would be new liturgy but I wouldn't consider it a bad thing either.

Those occasional memes you see of breakdancers or whatever in front of the Pope? Actually pretty ok

>>547908

And it's no less evil

>>547917

>That Muslims believe in our God has been taught already long before the council.

Muslims worship Jesus Christ?

>>547921

Orthodox doesn't just mean "Orthodox Denomination".

Anon, please.

>>547920

Indeed they do, without realising the being they are worshipping is Jesus though.

>>547936

Your brain on p*pism, ladies and gentlemen.

>>547938

Wait ya'll can't even say papacy or papism?

>>547936

So Hindus worship the true God, they just think they worship billions of pagan gods

>>547936

>blasphemy

>>547938

>>547955

>>548007

On road to Emmaus the Apostles didn't recognise the man they saw to be God either - but can we conclude from that that they didn't believe in God altogether? Was it per se impossible that in that they believed in God - and by logical consequence also in the man they met, who was God - while denying this man Divinity?

>>548032

>On road to Emmaus the Apostles didn't recognise the man they saw to be God either

You can't seriously be trying to make a parallel between these

>but can we conclude from that that they didn't believe in God altogether? Was it per se impossible that in that they believed in God - and by logical consequence also in the man they met, who was God - while denying this man Divinity?

A better parallel would be if they came to know that it was indeed God, and were so filled with hatred for Him that they rejected Him, continued to deny to Him deity, and made up their own god instead, to whom they give false worship according to their own designs

https://youtu.be/EuOT47RwgLs

>>548032

For Catholics and sedes here, consider the case of Eucharist. Protestants don't believe that it's God - but nobody denies that they believe in God, which means they can at the same time believe in God and deny the Eucharist, which is God.

>>548034

God is not a /fringe/ thought form who exists because of us believing He exists, and exists as He is because we believe He has those traits. God exists irrespective of whatever attributes you believe He has or does not have. This is why you can worship God despite having a wrong understanding of God.

>>548039

Let's say the bread is truly God once concecrated. Is it a different person from Jesus Christ?

>>548040

God is what He is. You can't exchange the glory of God for an image and claim to worship the true God. When the Hindus worship billions of gods, do they worship any other god than the true God? Why not, they just think they worship countless heathen gods, right? A god that isn't Jesus Christ isn't just a different view of the same God, it's a different god altogether.

>>548041

>God is what He is. You can't exchange the glory of God for an image and claim to worship the true God.

You actually can. The claim would be false in part or in totally, but you can certainly make the claim. If someone denies God is good but still worships God they really do worship God, just a wrong understanding of God. Hinduism isn't a fair comparison since they don't claim to worship the God of Abraham like muslims do.

>>548048

>If someone denies God is good but still worships God they really do worship God, just a wrong understanding of God

My God is good. If someone says the god they worship is evil, it ain't my God they worship. I don't know what strange god of modernity you worship that can be what he isn't, but my God is not like that.

>Hinduism isn't a fair comparison

Why not? By your Liberal, modernist logic every single person on this earth worships the true God.

>since they don't claim to worship the God of Abraham like muslims do

So when you said the claim would be false earlier in this post, you recant that?

The Muslims know who the true God is, they've heard His revelation, and they reject Him, they hate Him, they are in rebellion against Him, they want to destroy Him and they substitute their own idols for Him.

>>548034

Read this article of Feser:

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/12/christians-muslims-and-reference-of-god.html?m=1

>>548041

>Let's say the bread is truly God once concecrated. Is it a different person from Jesus Christ?

No. But whether one believes that He is there or not can't change the fact that it's truly God, and by denying His presence there, you are denying God - who is there - to be God.

>>548052

>Read this article of Feser:

It's mental gymnastics. I'll stick to your mental gymnastics in this thread, thanks

>No. But whether one believes that He is there or not can't change the fact that it's truly God, and by denying His presence there, you are denying God - who is there - to be God.

It isn't a denial that Jesus Christ is God. It's a denial that that is Jesus Christ.

>>548056

You're actively denying someone or something that is God to be God.

What's the difference that makes it possible to believe in God while denying Him in one case, but not in the other?

>>548058

If someone says they do not worship the Eucharist, that is true, they do not worship it

If someone says they do not worship Jesus Christ, that is true, they do not worship Him.

The difference, of course, is that the Eucharist is not a person of God, so it would not be a dispute over who the true God is, but if that bread becomes Jesus Christ. You are practicing the equivocation fallacy.

>>548059

>so it would not be a dispute over who the true God is

Are you trying to say that whether something is Trinitarian is essential in whether it is God or not, and if something isn't Trinitarian, it can't be God?

>>548069

The true God is a trinity, not a triad. If someone does not worship Jesus Christ, they do not worship God.

>>548096

>The true God is a trinity, not a triad.

What are you trying to say here and in what context?

>>548059

Also, my reasoning was supposed to refute those who say it's impossible to at the same time firmly believe in one thing and at the same time fimly deny what is really has nature of this thing (the particular human the Apostles met, the particular transformed piece of bread) to have its nature (I suppose this wording "to have its nature" may be clearer than "to be it"). This, I believe, I've shown to be wrong, since both my examples share the relevant characteristic - they are particular, real entities that have divine nature and are denied to be divine by someone believes in God.

>>547938

>Mistake someone's name, call him John instead of his real name Mike

>Therefore you didn't speak to Mike, you spoke to John

I'm pretty sure I invented that argument, and even I think it's retarded.

>>548097

That if the god someone worships is not the Triune Majesty, they do not worship the true God.

>>548181

>This, I believe, I've shown to be wrong

You believe wrong and anyone looking at this rationally would see that.

NOcucks are an embarrassment.