/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>come to the one true church they said, it'll have unity they said

>>547288

man this hit me in the feels hard

nothing wrong with toll houses you

brainlet , go be a Protestant in sone other Churchl next you are gonna show me some of Lazar's forged icons or Church father quotes.

>>547284

I think as a theological exercise it's useful, to show us the kinds of things we might avoid.

>>547318

It’s a real shame papism is a meme

>first infallible pope peter gets btfo at the council of jerusalem

>>547331

can we short circuit this thread and jump straight to Matt 16:18 and the papal scism

that's where they always end

>>547318

>Its a real shame Orthobros don't follow the guidance of elders as described in the bible and instead do the whole Pope thing we invented

No thanks.

or maybe we just incorporate the brazillion other threads we've had on this by reference

It is really dumb talking about the toll houses because no one actually looks into them they just go "lol toll houses r dumb how can demons have houses in the sky? i am so smart" and then leave it at that smug in their ignorance

>>547336

>Matt 16:18 and the papal scism

Ephesians 2:19-20

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Cor. 10:4

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

>>547340

Amen! Best anon.

Is it even possible for toll houses to be condemned by the orthodox? How does it work?

Okay okay wait a minute

>Toll houses are commanded by demons

>Demons are the ones that try to drag you to hell for your sins

>But demons aren't omniscient like the creator of all is

According to Tollhouse teaching I can get away with some sins. How does a Orthodox rebuke that?

>>547318

Hey now, you have a point. If the primary bishop wasn't going rogue, things would be better.

>>547389

A possible solution could be the Ecumenical Patriarchate taking an official stance. Wouldn't be as binding as a council but if they took a position on it most of the bishops would probably follow.

Otherwise we'd need to get a large number of bishops together at a Synod to discuss it.

>>547392

>How does a Orthodox rebuke that?

You don't. There is nothing Orthodox about the teachings of false witness gnostic infiltrators who get their memes from a monastery in Arizona.

>>547396

Lazar get off the computer and go make some more fake icons

>>547394

>Otherwise we'd need to get a large number of bishops together at a Synod to discuss it.

Is that what it would take to be considered a heresy?

>>547407

No, elders meeting up and trying to find the best path is a rather common thing.

Oh wait nevermind, I read >>547407 's post wrong.

Sage for doublepost.

>>547416

it's john the presbyterian not john the catholic

>>547407

Well, it's a little more complicated than that. The Triumph of Orthodoxy is liturgically marked as the day that the last novel heresy against the Church was crushed. Tollhouses would have to be identified with an earlier heresy by the bishops at a Synod and given that advocates of the doctrine have some church fathers they can use to argue I imagine it would be a fairly involved process.

But yes, the basic idea would be would be getting the bishops together and having them make a statement that identifies tollhouses with gnosticism or something.

>>547423

why do you agree with a defrocked Decon whose views were determined to be heretical by a synod compared to Seraphim Rose who was found to be teaching Orthodoxy.?

>>547394

Why don't you hold an ecumenical council and why haven't you held one for over a thousand years?

>>547284

>convert guy

>teaching others

lel, wtf. You do know that, according to Canons, a neophyte can not spread the Word and teach the Gospel until 7 years since his baptism pass? Get somebody else to teach the kids and give this guy some books about catechism.

Also, tollhouses were a literal heresy in ROC until the 90´s.

>>547449

How are your ecumenical councils treating you buddy boy?

>>547449

If this isn't a rhetorical question – it's impossible to have an Ecumenical Council without the entire capital-C Church together. Without the Pope with us, we're incomplete. We're missing a bishop.

>>547284

Maybe you're the one who's wrong?

What's with Americans and their rejection of this doctrine? What happened over there to cause this? All the catechical works on the departe of the soul after death taught it. We have many liturgical texts that teach it, among which are:

The Menaion:

Canon of the Orthros service composed by St John Chrysostom for The Recovery of the Holy Relics of Our Father among the Saints John Chrysostom

Orthros service of The Holy and Great Martyr, the All-famed Euphemia

The Orthros service of the Holy Martyrs Plato and Romanos

The Orthros service of Our Righteous Fathers Alypios the Stylite of Adrianople and Nikon Repent-Ye

The Orthros service of The Finding of the Relics of the Holy Martyrs in the Quarter of Eugenios

The Orthros service of The Righteous Martyr Conon of Isauria

The Orthros service of Our Righteous Father Ioannikios the Great

The Orthros service of The Holy Hieromartyr Antimos, Bishop of Nicomedia

The Vespers service of The Holy Martyrs Chrystanthos and Daria

The Vespers service of The Holy Hieromartyr Phocas of Sinope

The Orthros service of The Holy Martyrs Acepsimas, Joseph, and Aethalas

The Orthros service of The Veneration of the Precious Chains of the Holy and All-famed Apostle Peter

The Lenten Triodion:

The Saturday Orthros service of Cheesefare week, the sessional hymn after the first reading from the psalter

The Great Octoechos-Parakletiki:

The Midnight Office for Sunday,

The Monday Orthros first tone

The Vespers service on Tuesday evening, fourth tone

The Vespers service on Thursday evening, fourth tone

The Vespers service on Friday evening, second tone

The Vespers service on Friday evening, plagial first tone

The Great Horologion:

The small Compline service, in the prayer to the Most Holy Theotokos

The Supplicatory Canon to the Guardian Angel of a Man's Life by St John Mauropous, Metropolitan of Euchaita; Ode Six; Ode Seven; Ode Nine

The Midnight Office for Saturday, the prayer of St Eustratios

The Great Euchologion:

The Supplicatory Canon for a Person Preceding Confession; Ode Nine

The Great Book of Needs:

The Canon for the Departure of the Soul; Ode One; One Three; Ode Four; Ode Five; Ode Six; Ode Eight

The Canon for the Departure of the Soul When One Has Suffered for a Long Time; Ode One; Ode Four; Ode Five; Ode Seven; Ode Eight

The Service Book of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic Church:

The Order of the Burial of the Dead

The Sequential Service Psalter:

The Prayer after the Fourth Kathisma of the Psalter

St Cyril of Alexandria's Homily on the Departure of the Soul

The Supplicatory Canon to Our Lady Quick to Hear

The Book of Akathists:

The Akathist to the Icon of the Most Holy Mother of God, "The Inexhaustible Cup"; Prayer to the Most Holy Theotokos

The Akathist to the Archangel Michael attributed to His Holiness Isidore I, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople; Fourth Kontakion; Prayer to the Holy Archangel Michael

The Akathist to the St John the Theologian attributed to John Evgenikos; Prayer to the Holy Apostle John the Theologian

The Akathist to the Holy Apostle and Evangelist Luke; Prayer to the Holy Apostle and Evangelist Luke

The Akathist to Holy Apostle Simon; Prayer to the Holy Apostle Simon

The Akathist to the Holy Hieromartyr Cyprian; Prayer to the Holy Hieromartyr Cyprian

The Akathist to St George the Great Martyr; Prayer to the Holy and Great Martyr George

The Akathist to St Basil the Great of Cappadocia; Second Prayer to the Holy Hierarch Basil

The Akathist to the St Nicholas of Myra attributed to His Holiness Isidore I, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople; Prayer to the Holy Hierarch Nicholas of Myria

The Akathist to St Sergius of Radonezh attributed to Pachomius Logofet; Prayer to our Holy Father Sergius of Radonzeh

The Akathist to Sts Anathony and Theodosios of the Kiev Caves Lavra; Prayer to our Venerable and God-bearing Father Thodosios of the Kiev Caves Lavra

The Akathist to St Photios, Patriarch of Constantinople; Prayer to the Holy Hierarch Photios the Great

The Akathist to the New-Martyr Elizabeth, Grand Duchess of Russia; Prayer to the Grand Duchess Elizabeth and the Nun Barbara

Other Akathists:

The Akathist to St John of Rila, the Wonderworker; Prayer to our Holy Father John of Rila

The Akathist to St Luke the Confessor, Archbishop of Sinferopol; Prayer to the Holy Hierarch Luke the Confessor

The Akathist to the Lesna Icon of the Mother of God; Ikos VIII; Prayer I

>>547461

>All the catechical works on the departe of the soul after death taught it.

All that I've read, I mean. Do you know of Jean-Claude Larchet?

>>547340

>Ephesians 2:19-20

The Church is in this place said to be built upon the apostles and prophets; why not then upon St. Peter?

>1 Cor. 10:4

You do know that this passage is about stories in book of Numbers?

Or are you implying that every Rock is now Christ? Then Christ is Abraham, Isaiah 51:1-2

>>547476

Apostles and Prophets = New Testament and Old Testament

>>547478

That's vague and ad hoc interpretation. See Revelation 21 and Galatians 2

How exactly did this turn from a thread about Toll houses and the American heretics who reject them to a papal pissing contest??

>>547500

No it isn't, it's the plain meaning of the text. What else could it mean?

>>547331

not ex cathedra

>>547529

Forget the Saints because Catechumen Jim Bob is here to preserve the faith!

>>547529

To be fair, there are three doctrines about the fate of the soul after death in Orthodox tradition:

- At the hour of death, the soul is confronted by angels and demons. The demons seek to prevent it from rising to Heaven, and the angels protect it.

- The soul does not actually begin to depart for 40 days.

- During its ascension, the soul must pass through a certain number of "toll-houses" held by the demons, who accuse it and question it, while the angels defend it.

Not all of these saints speak of all three at once.

>>547530

The demons are the author of sin, they know very well what sins we have done since we have done them under their advice and supervision. But they do not know about the righteousness of God that has cleansed us of our sins and sinfulness, which is why the angels defend us, carrying the proof that we were forgiven and cleansed of our sins, and carrying the prayers of the Church for us, the power of which defeats any demon.

>>547529

>>547531

It’s always funny when an Ortholarp brings up "I’m legit bro, I was chismated and everything!" as a defence of embracing iconoclasm or rejecting Marian devotion or some equally nonsense heresy as though it’s any more valid than a nominally observant "Catholic" talking about how the Church just needs to get with the times guys, bring on the homos and women bishops!

>>547451

source?

>>547540

>embracing iconoclasm

>rejecting Marian devotion

Don't think I've ever seen this from an Orthodox.

I have seen an Orthodox online going on about how homosexual unions are fine and not sinful though. Because one saint classifies wife-beating under "arsenokoitai," then clearly "arsenokoitai" isn't what 2000 years of Church tradition understand it to be.

>>547565

It’s /christian/, it was 90% an evangelical larping to stir shit. As a general statement though a lot of people don’t think much of contradicting doctrine just because it doesn’t mesh with their personal ideology and worldview. That’s the nature of a degenerate and individualist society where "anyone can have any opinion they want man, it’s like their human right" I suppose.

>>547572

I've heard of at least one True Orthodox Church that embraces iconoclasm.

>>547588

Forgive me for being wrong, I was speculating based on church history and wasn't thinking about what the Creed really entails. Is there any specific reason that we haven't had an E.C. in quite some time? A lack of need?

>>547588

>>547600

>This isn't what we believe though, we are the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We are aren't any less able to have an ecumenical council than the Church was once the Nestorians or Monophysites left

Read the canons of Nicaea II. The Bishop of Rome must give his final saying for a council to be ecumenical.

However, it's not correct to say the Church isn't whole either. The Church is whole. But the institution that was necessary to call a council "ecumenical" left. It doesn't mean we can't have pan-Orthodox councils that are recognized as dogmatic (the Fourth Council of Constantinople of 879, and the Fifth Council of Constantinople aka the Hesychastic Councils, are examples of such). But it's difficult to call a council truly "ecumenical" when the most honorable Church of Old Rome, founded by Peter and Paul, isn't there.

>Can we skip the playing dumb and can you prove your beliefs from the Holy Scriptures and the earliest fathers instead of just reposting your tollhousesInLiturgicalTexts.txt.

I posted it on another site some time ago, and this is the first time I post it on /christian/.

Either way, I'll give you the exact texts of the Fathers who support this doctrine. Up to which date do you want?

>with you acting like we must believe this because somehow things don't work without it

We're not minimalists. Protestants are minimalists. As for us, we believe what was handed down to us since the 1st century. Do we pray for something we don't believe in?

>This probably won't be responded to because one of the things they tried to shill with their tripartite heresy meme is that there is no difference between the tollhouses and the soul being attacked by demons, but they don't argue for that well and hope that their arguments against the other two parts, which are almost strawmen, will carry over.

The only time we ever talk about the soul being met by demons in our liturgical texts is when they are called tax-collectors in toll-houses… The doctrine that the soul is met by angels and demons was quickly expanded into the doctrine of aerial toll-houses by the 4th-5th century, and hasn't moved since then.

>I've seen Latins cry when some Orthos pointed out things might be going too far, just because we accept the veneration of icons and the intercession of the saint doesn't mean we accept anything can be done to icons or anything can be said to the saints, we need to refrain from latria and that's a difficult line to draw it seems in some of these cases

Not sure I get your point. There's nothing wrong with Latin devotion to the Theotokos for example. Latins using statues is a bigger problem.

>>547610

>I don't even know if I disagree with you anymore

I will add though that I don't believe tollhouse theolog has remained the same since the fifth century, theoria and iconography have pushed it into a more unified belief, but many tollhouse theorists will still accept disagreement as long as its in camp disagreement (such as tollhouse numbering or the sins associated with the tollhouses)

>>547610

>If you think up to is the question you haven't learned yet that we value the antiquitey of the Church's beliefs, and if you think liturgical texts are going to help you haven't learned that we value Scripture and the teachings of the disciples of the disciples

That's not an answer to my question. Don't be rude and actually give a reply.

But I think you're trying to say that you want me to show you where in the scriptures is it said that demons, the tax-collectors, try to impede our ascent to Heaven while the angels defend us. Is that correct?

>Exactly this, so prove this belief was present from the first century, not the late third.

That the Church universally teaches it is sufficient, but since you'd rather not listen to the Church, then read the Scriptures.

The following are unilaterally understood by the Fathers to refer to the trial of the soul at the hour of death (the lion is the devil, and all OT passages are from the LXX):

Isaiah 3:12

>My people, the tax-collectors scourge you, and the creditors rule over you.

Psalm 7:1-2

>O Lord my God, in thee have I put my hope, save me from them that persecute me, and do Thou deliver me: Lest at any time like a lion he seize my soul, when there is none to redeem me, nor to save.

Psalm 21:20-21

>Deliver my soul from the sword; and my only-begotten from the hand of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth.

Psalm 118:80

>Let my heart be blameless in Thy statutes that I may not be put to shame.

Psalm 123:4-5

>Our soul hath passed through a torrent; then had our soul passed through the water that is irresistible. Blessed be the Lord Who hath not given us to be a prey to their teeth.

John 14:30

>Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.

That means that when we fall into sin, the devil has something in us, and he will want it back along with our whole body and soul.

Luke 12:30

>But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night they will require thy soul: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Our bad works are an offering to the devil, which he will take fully when we die.

Luke 12:58

>When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he should drag three to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the exactor, and the exactor cast thee into prison.

The judge is of course the Lord, but who are the opponent, the magistrate, and the exactor? The opponent wants us to be condemned, the magistrate gives us over to the judge as he knows we are guilty, and the judges leaves us to the exactor who punishes us.

Luke 16:22-23

>And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

If it is angels that bring us to Abraham's bosom (now Heaven), then who brings us to Hades? The demons.

cont

>>547610

>>547620

Luke 18:1-8

>And He spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a wiow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.

Our adversary is the devil, God alone can avenge us and bring justice.

Ephesians 2:2

>Wherin in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Ephesians 6:12

>For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual hosts of evil in heavenly places.

Ephesians 6:13

>Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Colossians 2:15

>And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

How did He make a spectale of them, and despoiled them? By having nothing of them in Him to find at the hour of His dearh.

Hebrews 9:27

>And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

1 Peter 5:8

>Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

Jude 1:9

>Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

>>547610

>Thanks, but I believe we are the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church

Doesn't change the fact there is no See of Rome today, and so we cannot have an ecumenical council per the canons of the already established councils.

>I don't, but somehow tollhouse apologist find all these liturgical texts that seemingly aren't making it to my parish, but I also have no problem confessing the soul is attacked by demons in life and at the end of life, and we in our love for our brothers pray for them especially in their times of greatest weekness.

I can understand rejecting the toll-house doctrine since it's not dogma, but you call it a heresy. Furthermore, do you then not even believe that there is an intermediate judgment? I can understand rejecting that there are demons waiting in toll houses to take our souls if we are sinful enough, especially since the Fathers don't even agree on the number or the nature of these toll-houses, but if there is one thing the Fathers are absolutely in agreement on, it's that there is an intermediate judgment between death and our actual arrival in Paradise or Hades, and angels and demons are both involved.

>>547284

Look, dont get me wrong, I despise tollhouse meme (at least by current state) and wish to eradicate it, but you cant simply disallow people to have opinion on the subject. Its a theologoumena and the guy has right to have its opinion.

Rather, you could use explanation of Gregory Palamas, that "tollhouses" are merely a metaphore of human consciousness, by which we judge our sins.

>>547533

>The demons are the author of sin, they know very well what sins we have done since we have done them under their advice and supervision. But they do not know about the righteousness of God that has cleansed us of our sins and sinfulness, which is why the angels defend us, carrying the proof that we were forgiven and cleansed of our sins, and carrying the prayers of the Church for us, the power of which defeats any demon.

>transdimensional advocates meme

Ok, I DO want this meme to end. Also, demons arent "authors of sin", this is a degenerate pentecostal attitude.

>>547627

>demons aren't "authors of sin"

That's a degenerate Calvinist attitude.

The devil is the father of lies and him and his armies are the authors of sin.

Frankly beginning to wonder if the Orthodox on this board are really Orthodox. Feels like we don't have the same religion sometimes.

>>547629

How high is your horse?

James 1:

>14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

>15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

>>547632

About this high → ^

I see Orthodox here calling the doctrine of the toll-houses a gnostic heresy. That's a pretty serious problem… Not believing it is a thing, calling it a gnostic heresy is another. It's an attack on the Church.

>>547633

>It's an attack on the Church.

No its not, since its not a dogma. Its another thing if you consider it so, but thank God, church doesnt care about your opinion.

And yes, its a typical gnostic trash with "give a gold (say the word) to the demon (archont)" formula, at least by the current state that you want to impose this degenerate teaching.

>>547635

It's not a dogma, but it's also a traditional teaching and theologoumenon of the Church, and a strong tradition in Slavonic traditions. To call it a gnostic heresy is to say the Church teaches gnostic heresy and has been doing so for centuries.

>>547637

> strong tradition in Slavonic traditions.

about which nobody cares besides autistic Russians

>To call it a gnostic heresy is to say the Church teaches gnostic heresy and has been doing so for centuries.

No, it means that certain saints, that are definitely not infallible, have thought this meme, but it doesnt reduce their sainthood, as much as different opinions about heaven and hell dont reduce merits of saint supporting either teachings.

>>547637

also, about "slavonic traditions" may I remind you about "traditions of men"?

>>547476

It is built on Peter as well, but Christ is the chief corner stone upon which all is built and is the rock referred to in Matthew 16:18.

Also there is no successor to Peter either because he is still fulfilling the role of Apostle. Otherwise that's papism.

1 Corinthians 3:10-11

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

>>547565

>I have seen an Orthodox online going on about how homosexual unions are fine and not sinful though. Because one saint classifies wife-beating under "arsenokoitai,"

Then that man is retarded. See Romans 1:24-28, 2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7, and Revelation 22:15.

Any Orthos on this board who believe in toll houses?

>>547527

That a)Church is one, through ages. Moses was part of it, Elijah was part of it, Sirach was part of it etc, for the professed one Messiah, this is Christ.

b) Church is apostolic. It's bulit upon apostels to which were given power and authoirty, and they passed it in apostolic succesion. "You will sit on twelve thrones, judging twelve tribes of Israel" etc.

If it was "plain meaning" someone who actually spoke koine Greek would wrote about it. But noone did for this is ad hoc interpretation.

Also, see Revelation 21 and Galatians 2

>>547644

>It is built on Peter as well, but Christ is the chief corner stone upon which all is built and is the rock referred to in Matthew 16:18.

Rock here is either Peter or Peter confession. Both came from Christ though. Just like Peter feed sheep i.e. is chief pastor becuase Christ is Chief Pastor so is Peter Rock becuase Christ in unmovable Rock. Nor is Peter first to be called Rock who is not God, Abraham was as well.

>Also there is no successor to Peter either because he is still fulfilling the role of Apostle.

On contrary, office of Peter is successive. Both Scriptural and historical records show that.

>Otherwise that's papism.

<I will dissmiss it a priori for I cannot be wrong

Non serviam at it finest.

>1 Corinthians 3:10-11

You do understand that Peter and apostles are foundation BECAUSE of Christ?

>>547692

Yes, unfortunately. In fact, there's probably some orthoposters prepared to reply to your post with their copypasta with a list of the ambiguous endorsements of this heresy from bishop/saint literally who of literally where. Don't even bother replying to them; they'll just respond with "lol fug off lazar buhalo :DDD"

>>547692

get ready for some patristic quotemining to support it

i will ask my spiritual father about this, and report back with what he says

>>547925

>As long as I have time I'll get to these, if I'm called away then maybe tomorrow.

Following up on this. Seeing as these are a reoccurring feature of these threads I want to give them more attention, so as I'll probably be back tomorrow

>>547925

>Honestly we kinda don't, I don't believe in any way that I will be saved by others filthy rags

He calls the relics of the Saints "filthy rags" and he has the audacity to call others heretics. Behold the Orthodox Evangelical

>>547937

>He calls the relics of the Saints "filthy rags"

I literally did not do this, sorry you can't catch references I thought were common

>Isaiah 64:6

>But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

>and he has the audacity to call others heretics.

Again I could be wrong but I didn't think I did in this thread

>Behold the Orthodox Evangelical

I don't know whether I want more of this butthurt as it's entertaining or if I want it to stop because I feel bad for you

>>547982

I though the EO dismissed faith alone?

>>548023

Merits and good works here are seen as "symptoms" of faith, so we don't affirm division as it is with Catholics or rejection of notion of good works as protestants. But yes, theoretically, our stance is closer to "sola fide" somewhat. Someone post that Lutheran-Orthodox joint statement.