/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I've heard researchers from the People's Republic of China say publicly that in studying the reasons behind the 'success' of the 'West' (you might say worldly success), a lot of it had to do with Christianity, which distinguished the 'West' from other cultures, specifically in that Christianity laid down certain powerful guidelines concerning money.

>>543910

Yes, but what are those guidelines? I have heard the oft-quoted

> "you cannot serve both God and mammon"

but what I don't understand is what that actually looks like irl. Does that mean working only enough so that I can pay bills, and thus spend more time with kids instead of working overtime? Does that mean not saving/investing for retirement? Does that mean I should not try to have a high paying job? Is there such a thing as making too much money per year? If I have a business, should I try to grow that business? Is it okay to aggressively grow a business if my motivation is to serve people rather than to make money?

I'm just very confused. If I am not called to the religious life or celibacy, I would like to own an acreage outside a major city, and own assets which generate me passive income every month. If I am not called to religious life or celibacy, I would want to have six or seven kids, and own some goats, chickens, bees, fruit trees, vegetable garden and solar/wind power in order to be somewhat self-sufficient. I am attracted to minimalism and would like to avoid debt if possible, but I am confused about what attitude I should take once my immediate needs are met.

>>543915

>http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0207.htm

>So let no man destroy wealth, rather than the passions of the soul, which are incompatible with the better use of wealth. So that, becoming virtuous and good, he may be able to make a good use of these riches. The renunciation, then, and selling of all possessions, is to be understood as spoken of the passions of the soul.

Money is a needed thing, but don't let money be your object. It's okay to save up for retirement or a nice plot of land outside the city so long as you don't do so to the exclusion of charity. If you start pursuing money for the sake of money then you should start questioning yourself. This seems like a good general guideline.

I want to make lot's of money so I can have lots of kids. I rarely buy anything for myself.

>>543939

Thank you for the effort, but I would like a Catholic response. Seems interesting and edifying from the goodreads reviews though

>>543951

Thank you, anon. So what is the purpose of material possessions like money?

>>543952

>So what is the purpose of material possessions like money?

They are supposed to be, to use the words of Catholic Encyclopedia, "instruments for the conduct of a rational and harmonious life".

>>543915

What about the parables regarding coins and such things as these.

I.e…."he went and made 10 coins our of one coin."

>>543977

out of one*

I want it so I can use it to change the world in a positive way, help save as many people as I can and fight evil. Money gives power and influence.

I also want it so I can raise many kids well.

I'm also going to use it to live reasonably comfortably, but that's not my main goal.

So that's why right now in my life I'm focusing on education so I can get a good degree so I can get a good job so I can make big money.

>>543982

Basically, you use goods to help you and your neighbour; "rational and harmonious life" seems to be a good intuitive way to put it.

If you want to know precise guidelines, whether in general outlook or as regards particular problems and situations, then I greatly recommend Callan's and McHugh's "Moral Theology", because of how easy it is to navigate and read, combined with how much material it contains; in addition, you can get it for free - it's in public domain now, so you can read it at e.g. gutenberg.org.

>>543995

Thank you very much anon, you have done a lot to put my mind at ease. God bless you!

>>544710

Idk, maybe I just have scruples, but when I read about all the condemnations of rich people and wealth and greed and money in the Bible, I get terrified of being thrown into hell because I didn't tithe enough or wasn't self-sacrificing enough or cared about material things or retirement and so it seems like the best thing is to just not care about anything at all and try to avoid money as much as possible and be poor.

>>543915

>>543977

"Notice how the time required to transition from the low productivity capital goods to the higher productivity capital goods is dependent on the individual's time preference"

Accruing capital is not for most, a desirable goal. Static capital is dead capital and dead capital is no capital at all. By investing capital into organised structures in a company, so to speak, and creating real wealth via the increased efficiency of surplus labour, the standards of living of all parties will be increased. That is to say, that rather than hoarding on to money, any money you can invest into capital goods should be invested into capital goods including those not of material but of societal for example, a company.

I've thought a lot about this question. I agree with my brothers saying becoming wealthy isn't evil - but a standard 401K is.

Here's why- it's treasure laid up on Earth, the control over which is in the hands of others. Similarly a stock pile of gold is bad.

If you start a company or a charity and pile money into that, that's fine. You're actively managing your money to do God's work. But if you give your money to the bankers… well, that's only slightly better than burying it in the ground an, considering the parable of the talents, I think the "bankers" represent the church, (if you can't do God's work with your cash, give the excess to the church you believe in) and the hole in the ground are the actual bankers.

Building wealth is fine but personally make use of it. Do go with it, and don't pretend you're not responsible for the harm done by others using the capital in your retirement account or savings account or stock certificates.

"But I don't know how to use my money for God, anon"

Then, like I said, give it to the church. you don't like that - then actually think about how to do God's work with it or do God's work in other ways and don't waste your time with cash.

Cash isn't good or bad but it's your time that must be spent for God. If you convert time to cash, the cash better be spent on God.

>>544758

Okay, basically socially responsible investing, I can get behind that, IF I can somehow get over this voice in my head which keeps saying

> trying to improve your situation in life is sinful/bad

> you should just try to survive, rather than contributing to the evils of capitalism and globalism and degeneracy

> you only need a little food, water, shelter and clothes, anything else is decadence

> planning for the future is sinful- trust in God

> if you want to make more money, then you're just going to want to keep making more money, and more money, until you're a filthy millionaire, and yet you still won't be happy, would you?

> Only liars, cheats and mean people get rich

Someone pls help.

>>544769

> trying to improve your situation in life is sinful/bad

Improving is good by it's nature, this is false. Perhaps you mean something different by improve?

> you should just try to survive, rather than contributing to the evils of capitalism and globalism and degeneracy

art, culture, wisdom - these things draw others to salvation when they expound the truth of Christ. Capitalism is only evil because the people participating in that system are evil.

> you only need a little food, water, shelter and clothes, anything else is decadence

No. Anything else that detracts from your relationship with God is decadence. If it inspires you to work harder for God, to work harder to save others, then it's not decadent. Hymnal music that inspires you to go out and witness isn't necessary but neither is it decadent.

> planning for the future is sinful- trust in God

-Worrying- about the future is sinful- trust in God. Having a plan, but with the caveat that you're willing to change should God show you otherwise is okay. Even better is discovering where God intends you to be and trying your best to get there in accordance with his will. Don't bind yourself to agreements though- you have to be ready to change everything if God calls for it.

> if you want to make more money, then you're just going to want to keep making more money, and more money, until you're a filthy millionaire, and yet you still won't be happy, would you?

Money will never make you happy. What do you want to do with the money? Is it God's work?- If so, get the money and do it, but God would never want you to act immorally to do his work - God doesn't work that way. So, trust in him to find you a path to get the money to do his work and, if one doesn't occur, then you were misunderstanding God's plan for you and spend time praying to understand better.

> Only liars, cheats and mean people get rich

True, when it isn't the will of God. Also, see last answer.

Hope that helps a little, will do follow-up if you think it's warranted.

>>544776

> Improving is good by it's nature, this is false. Perhaps you mean something different by improve?

Why is improving good by it's nature? I have not heard this before. (So does this mean it's not a sin to work out and try to be /fit/?)

> art, culture, wisdom - these things draw others to salvation when they expound the truth of Christ. Capitalism is only evil because the people participating in that system are evil.

Then why do so many bishops and priests seem to hate on it? I've read the Catechism, and I'm pretty sure they explicitly say that owning property is not bad, but they seem to be really reluctant about it and I get the vibe that they really do just want everyone to be poor like the monks (I guess this could be my own bias)

> No. Anything else that detracts from your relationship with God is decadence. If it inspires you to work harder for God, to work harder to save others, then it's not decadent. Hymnal music that inspires you to go out and witness isn't necessary but neither is it decadent.

Doesn't Jesus say something about bringing a sword to divide families though? Can't your family become your god?

> -Worrying- about the future is sinful- trust in God. Having a plan, but with the caveat that you're willing to change should God show you otherwise is okay. Even better is discovering where God intends you to be and trying your best to get there in accordance with his will. Don't bind yourself to agreements though- you have to be ready to change everything if God calls for it.

Oh, okay, I already did this, but I've never really understood how you're supposed to hear from God/know if He is trying to get you to stop.

> Money will never make you happy. What do you want to do with the money? Is it God's work?- If so, get the money and do it, but God would never want you to act immorally to do his work - God doesn't work that way. So, trust in him to find you a path to get the money to do his work and, if one doesn't occur, then you were misunderstanding God's plan for you and spend time praying to understand better.

Idk, I guess I've always just wanted more money so that I don't feel quite so financially fragile. The world scares me, and I've mostly responded by just reducing my 'needs' down to basically nothing so that I never feel out of control financially.

>>544776

>>544781

As far as what I want to do with money, see >>544728. I feel like I want to escape the world, but I'm not convinced that I should be a monk or priest, because I lack faith.

>>544781

>Why is improving good by it's nature? I have not heard this before. (So does this mean it's not a sin to work out and try to be /fit/?)

Improving: to enhance in value or quality :make better (Merriam-Webster)

Of course God wants us to be better; the question is whether the action you're taking is actually improvement. Getting fit to extend your life, to avoid sloth, to strength your immune system is good. Getting fit to increase your chances of fornication, that's bad. Getting so muscle you don't need and so requiring unnecessary food is bad, but if you can use that muscle to God's glory, then it's okay. In all things, seek to glorify God, if you're improvement is with doing his work in mind, then it's for God.

>Then why do so many bishops and priests seem to hate on it? I've read the Catechism, and I'm pretty sure they explicitly say that owning property is not bad, but they seem to be really reluctant about it and I get the vibe that they really do just want everyone to be poor like the monks (I guess this could be my own bias)

Because most of art, culture, and wisdom is secular and doesn't seek to glorify God. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but it's a dangerous path- start with medieval culture and philosophy so as not to be dragged down by the worldliness of the modern world's culture. As for them wanting you to be poor, that's, as unfortunate to admit, probably covetousness. People get real sensitive about money, especially if they don't know how to manage their own- that being said, don't toil to acquire wealth, make your wealth doing God's will, and put that wealth to God's will or don't do it at all.

>Doesn't Jesus say something about bringing a sword to divide families though? Can't your family become your god?

Your family absolutely can replace God. So can anything. It's good to recognize this but Christ says that if you don't want to get married, cut off your junk. I know the church says it's metaphorical but it sure isn't written that way and Origen went and did it. Paul says a bishop should be the husband of one wife. I dunno, I think marriage and family is a necessary part of life and ducking out limits our ability to understand God and the process of this universal. Raising another human gives us the chance to be selfless, an infant is totally dependent. You can make a false idol out of your family but that doesn't mean you have to. I always remember to put God before my family precisely because I love my family. If I put them first, I'm putting us all on a path to death. Since I love them, I must love God first so that we can all attain eternal life.

>Oh, okay, I already did this, but I've never really understood how you're supposed to hear from God/know if He is trying to get you to stop.

God always has gone through a few phases with me. First, he makes me feel generally uncomfortable with stuff. Second, he'll give me an audible clue or two in my head. If I ignore that, he literally ruins my plans and I've never failed to miss that. I feel like a total jackass when he has to go stage 3 on me.

>Idk, I guess I've always just wanted more money so that I don't feel quite so financially fragile. The world scares me, and I've mostly responded by just reducing my 'needs' down to basically nothing so that I never feel out of control financially.

Financial fragility should never be avoided. Put all your money at calculated risk or you're building up treasures on Earth. Don't risk it on something stupid but neither hide gold bars in the ground. Put it to use for God. There is no amount of money that can save you from hyper-inflation, natural disasters or a fatal heart attack. Put your trust in God.

Reducing your needs is laudible because your need (really, wants) are indulging appetites when you could be doing God's work with the money.

>>544782

> bachelors in applied math

> masters in applied math

Do you feel God has directed you here? If so, fine.

> have six or seven kids

> homeschool them

> buy ~5 acres of land

> become as self-sufficient as possible (goats, chickens, bees, fruit trees, vegetables etc)

> landscape/improve the property

> make use of renewable energy (solar panels/wind/vanadium flow batteries)

> 10 seater passenger van for the whole family, one car for me, another car for kids to share/wife to use

I don't see a problem with this

> help kids with university somewhat (not paying for the whole thing, maybe help them buy a car and help pay for tuition if they live at home)

This depends on the kid. Help your kids succeed at whatever God is trying to get them to do. Don't decide ahead of time that it is college- but it might be. Also, don't invest in a kid that rejects the faith. Put your investment in them in accordance with how good of a person they become.

>> invest money in non-usurious ways in order to save for retirement

Don't invest with anyone else. Invest in your own business. Treat people honestly, make sure your money is not used for evil. Devote the excess to God through church or charity, preferably a charity you run.

>> invest money in non-usurious ways in order to pay estate taxes/debts and leave something for each of my kids

Don't invest. estate taxes are not 100%. Give your kids their inheritance in accordance with their goodness when they're young because building up the wealth to give an inheritance at your death is storing up treasures on Earth and, when they'll really need your support is when they're getting started.

> give to charity/do cool altruism things

As much as you can without destroying the business you built instead of investing.

>>544789

Thank you very much for this anon, it seems I still have a lot to think and pray about.

> Of course God wants us to be better; the question is whether the action you're taking is actually improvement. Getting fit to extend your life, to avoid sloth, to strength your immune system is good. Getting fit to increase your chances of fornication, that's bad. Getting so muscle you don't need and so requiring unnecessary food is bad, but if you can use that muscle to God's glory, then it's okay. In all things, seek to glorify God, if you're improvement is with doing his work in mind, then it's for God.

Thank you, this is very helpful. So if I was working out so that I could be attractive to my future wife, would that be sinful?

> As for them wanting you to be poor, that's, as unfortunate to admit, probably covetousness. People get real sensitive about money, especially if they don't know how to manage their own- that being said, don't toil to acquire wealth, make your wealth doing God's will, and put that wealth to God's will or don't do it at all.

Can you explain further what you mean by 'make your wealth doing God's will, and put that wealth to God's will'? One thing that has bothered me about the idea of getting an applied math degree is that I would likely be contributing to the trend of automation/globalization that is taking away so many jobs and connecting everyone into one huge debt-run system.

> God always has gone through a few phases with me. First, he makes me feel generally uncomfortable with stuff. Second, he'll give me an audible clue or two in my head. If I ignore that, he literally ruins my plans and I've never failed to miss that. I feel like a total jackass when he has to go stage 3 on me.

Well I'm certainly uncomfortable with money, but I don't know if that is just my own hangups or something more

> Financial fragility should never be avoided. Put all your money at calculated risk or you're building up treasures on Earth. Don't risk it on something stupid but neither hide gold bars in the ground. Put it to use for God. There is no amount of money that can save you from hyper-inflation, natural disasters or a fatal heart attack. Put your trust in God.

What about an emergency fund? And why do you say to put all your money at calculated risk or you're building up treasures on earth? If those calculated risks are well chosen, won't I end up with more money?

>>544792

Well, the idea to pursue an applied math degree mostly came from observing the trends in society and concluding that it was one of the best degrees to get wrt employment opportunities. I may go for a medical degree after my undergraduate (God willing) but we'll see.

> Also, don't invest in a kid that rejects the faith. Put your investment in them in accordance with how good of a person they become.

I'll have to think more about this- can you expound why you say this?

> Don't invest with anyone else. Invest in your own business.

This really surprised me. I had played around with the idea that at some point I would want to start my own business, but hadn't really considered investing in someone else's business to be immoral

> Give your kids their inheritance in accordance with their goodness when they're young because building up the wealth to give an inheritance at your death is storing up treasures on Earth and, when they'll really need your support is when they're getting started.

This is also something I will have to think about. How would you do it then, when they turn 18-21, give them a lump sum?

>>544797

>Thank you, this is very helpful. So if I was working out so that I could be attractive to my future wife, would that be sinful?

Why would it?

You should talk to a priest about what to do in regards to money, you seem to be scrupulous.

>>544797

>Thank you, this is very helpful. So if I was working out so that I could be attractive to my future wife, would that be sinful?

If your future wife is the wife God wants for you she will be unconcerned about your physical state, excepting it not exhibit gluttony or sloth. Be as fit as you need for God's work, and God will help you find a wife while you're busy serving him.

>Can you explain further what you mean by 'make your wealth doing God's will, and put that wealth to God's will'? One thing that has bothered me about the idea of getting an applied math degree is that I would likely be contributing to the trend of automation/globalization that is taking away so many jobs and connecting everyone into one huge debt-run system.

Automation isn't bad. Globalization is only bad because the system being globalized isn't a Christian one. Making more value through automation is good; people will be as corrupt as they want to be, value can always allow those that want to do God's will to do more. Don't make weapons.

>What about an emergency fund? And why do you say to put all your money at calculated risk or you're building up treasures on earth? If those calculated risks are well chosen, won't I end up with more money?

An emergency fund is lacking trust in God. However, having enough liquid assets to handle bills as they come due and anticipated maintenance is just decent business sense. Don't try to insure- if God wants you to stop your business, why're you trying to stop him? Nothing wrong with splitting assets into several venues if you're not sure which God wants you to be doing, he can make the wrong ones fail - but you've gotta be willing to be actively involved in all your businesses which limits how many you can do.

>> Also, don't invest in a kid that rejects the faith. Put your investment in them in accordance with how good of a person they become.

>I'll have to think more about this- can you expound why you say this?

Money, investment, etc. is for God's will, not necessarily for the fruit of your loins. Now, knowing your children best, and them being the natural inheritors of your legacy, there's nothing wrong in letting them carry on God's work for you. If they refuse to do that, however, cut them off and give to those who will do good. This is what it means to put God ahead of family.

>This really surprised me. I had played around with the idea that at some point I would want to start my own business, but hadn't really considered investing in someone else's business to be immoral

It isn't if you know them personally and you constantly ensure your money is being used for God's work (I think of this as another for of the "bankers" in the talents parable) but investing in a faceless stock exchange that gives your money to the world to abuse people is absolutely immoral. It's about taking personal responsibility over how your money is used.

>This is also something I will have to think about. How would you do it then, when they turn 18-21, give them a lump sum?

Give them what you think God wants you to give them at the time you think God wants you to do it. Looking for pat answers inevitably leads to ignoring the Father. Just be prepared to invest if they turn out to be devote Christians and the opportunity for investment occurs.

>/pol/

>Catholic

Choose one, brother.

Now for your question, no there's nothing wrong with chasing a career and making money. It's how you do so. No one can serve two masters, so make sure God is first and foremost in all that you do. It should ultimately be for his glory, not yours. While minimalism and a spartan lifestyle are praised in Scripture, it's not necessary. Although it greatly decreases the distractions and evils of the world.

>>543905

in short, based on what i have read about you, make money (if you feel it is a good path for you) and make lots of it, as much as you can (ethically of course, no illegal, dishonest things). but remember, no matter how much money "you" have in your bank account, *you* truly have nothing. every cent is for the Lord. It was given to you by him just as a test, and every penny has to be paid back to him. use your money to help the poor, spread the faith, preach the gospel, raise your family well. You are just a caretaker of the money, you in your spirit truly owns nothing.