/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>538961

Great to hear you're considering Orthodoxy, anon!

I'm a Protestant convert and I'll be more than happy to answer some of your questions when I get home.

>inb4 Catholics

>coming back to God

>Catholic

>Orthodox

>Protestant

First question is: are you saved?

>>538964

I have no idea, anon. I'm coming off 5+ years of Godlessness and was kind of a shitty catholic before that. I'm looking to belong to a community that really believes in something, more for my future children's benefit than my own. I can't help them if I don't start now on myself.

>>538963

Why did you convert between the two?

None of us is good. Whether you are Catholic, Orthodox, or any branch of Protestant, you will find poison hidden in every corner, and only find holiness among the humble and the pious.

We don't have problems with baby fondling and BERGOGLIO but we have problems with nationalism taking precedence over faith, jurisdictional messes (which are only a problem for bishops, but still), and some corrupt bishops and priests who only care about $$$.

>Can some Orthodox anons (converts especially) talk about their journey to the Church and how it impacts how Godly they are able to be in their daily lives?

I'm a convert. Having stricter standards and more lenient pastoral guidance than in Catholicism is a good thing. The liturgical services are all amazingly beautiful and spiritually elevating. I love our hymns and prayers as well. In my opinion, there are some unanswered questions, loopholes, and other unclear things in many Christian traditions, but they find their answer in Orthodoxy.

>How similar is it to Catholicism?

Sacramental, high church, exclusivity of the Eucharist, real presence, Mary gets special veneration, etc.

More strict rules on fasts, prayers, communion.

Less deep scholastic tradition, more focus on experience.

>What resources should I use (besides the Bible) to get started?

Met. Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Church" is pretty good, I heard.

My patriarch, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, also released a book that introduces to Orthodoxy: "Encountering the Mystery: Understanding Orthodox Christianity Today"

To be honest, most things you will learn about Orthodoxy are true for Catholicism too. For instance, we share the same Church Fathers prior to the 11th century, which is half of, and the common foundation of, our theological history.

>>538961

So, you want a denomination that fits you and your personal views so that you don't actually have to do any work toward your own salvation.

We have a word for that: LARPing.

You need to come to Christ and be saved before you start worrying about which cosplay troupe to join.

>>538980

Honestly, I've come to terms with the fact that I'm probably going to struggle with this for many years. As I said before I want this to be for my children's salvation.

>>538961

As you can see Protestanism is a meme. They have hundreds of denoms, they constantly change their morals, they allow Lesbians to be Bishops and get married (total LARPing) etc. So that's out, we got that cleared.

Since you're baptised as a Catholic in the church you will forever be one in the eyes of the Church. Jesus's church would not be divided, for a divided house cannot stand. There is only one Church which is in literally every country on this earth, who all adhere to one doctrine and has one leader.

The church is the new Israel, and of course this means we will have to struggle with God and it's not always an easy one. The orthodox church is clearly divided, with ethnic clubs over true unity, which is what God truly wants.

Forget about whether you like the Pope or not. Were the Jewish people supposed to like King Saul? Even though he was appointed by God? Throughout history God uses sinners and sometimes elects them as leaders.

As for sexual abuse, read many articles, the Catholic church *does not* have a higher rate of abuse than any religious denomination, and in fact is significantly lower than abuse rates than we see in institutions such as public schools, etc.

Orthodox has just as high of a abuse rate amongst their members.

>>538961

>How similar is it to Catholicism?

Incredibly similar, the only thing that truly divides them is disagreements on how important the Bishop of Rome is.

>>539051

How many Patriarchs are there

>>538966

Alright, I'm back.

So, to begin with: here's your basic introduction to Orthodoxy from an Orthodox Christian.

The Orthodox Church is the Church founded by the Christ and His Apostles back in the early years of the 1st century. More specifically, it's the continuous, communing union of a number of ancient churches founded by the Apostles and the Seventy – the Church in Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and originally Rome (though we've had a falling out with the Romans since over a number of issues). Bishops in these Churches went on to found other Churches around the world, some of which grew to be quite prolific in their own right (like that in Russia).

Orthodoxy and Catholicism strongly resemble each other on the surface level due to our shared history, but we diverge strongly in doctrine and practice.

Unlike Protestant services which are fairly freeform, the Orthodox and Catholic churches (colloquially 'Cathodox') practice the Divine Liturgy, a set service that is modeled after the services practiced by the Apostles. It was formalized in the early Church and described in detail by several saints, allowing it to be maintained without change for thousands of years in the Orthodox Tradition. Catholics made a number of changes in recent centuries, most notably during Vatican II, to make the service a little shorter and generally modernize it (Novus Ordo). Though their original service is still maintained as the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), these can be few and far between. This is a major difference between us – no matter what Orthodox Church you attend, you can be sure to be getting a fundamentally identical service to the ancient practice.

If you're familiar with the Catholic practice of sacraments, we practice them as well, with notable differences I can expound upon if you're interested. Notably, we don't allow Catholics to partake of ours and vice-versa.

Another big difference that's coming to mind is that we don't use instruments for music. It's all choral. Traditionally, we also don't use pews, with chairs being available for the elderly and adults and children standing through the Liturgy. At least in the States, Greek Churches have gotten lax with this and have pews for the laity, but Russian Churches will often be sticklers.

Joining the Orthodox Church isn't like joining a Protestant church, where you primarily just make an effort of showing up frequently and they baptize you as soon as possible. It's more of a process; you go through a process called catechism, where a Priest/Deacon will teach you the basics of Church theology, Scripture, and Church history over the centuries. When they feel you're ready, you'll be baptized and chrismated as a way of formally inducting you into the Church. This whole process can take some time. I was allowed to join in 8 months, but it can take 2 years or more for those with sporadic Church attendance or serious lifestyle problems they're having trouble with.

That's most of the basics. Now to my personal conversion, since you asked.

>>539055

I was raised a Presbyterian. My parents' families were originally Catholic, but they distanced themselves for different reasons: My father lost his faith, and my mother's family converted to Presbyterianism because of rampant malpractice in their parish. As I grew up, the local Presbyterian church my mother and I attended grew soft on several key issues (like gay marriage), so we became non-denominational. This only exacerbated the problem, though, as I'm sure a lot of other posters on here would agree.

Once I began to live on my own, I was looking for an Orthodox Presbyterian church in the in the area. While I searched around, I happened to stumble on an Eastern Orthodox Church nearby and introduced myself to the Priest. /blogpost

Initially, the draw of Orthodoxy over Catholicism for me pretty much laid in the 'stupid' reasons you gave in the OP. The more I learned about it, though, the happier I've found myself. My reasons are mostly doctrinal.

Orthodoxy strongly asserts a belief in divine mysteries that strongly contrasts with Catholic scholasticism. By that, I mean we tend to describe things as beyond human comprehension rather than trying to describe their exact philosophical implications (not to say that things described in this way are completely unintelligible, they're just things that you aren't going to be able to explain to another person). As an example, when the Catholics describe the transformation of Communion bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, they have a clear and distinct theological framework to describe the way this happens based on the work of scholastic theologians. In Orthodoxy, we instead describe this process as a transformation that is truly present though indescribable. This sounds wishy-washy at first, I admit, but there's a level of wisdom in this that becomes more clear the longer you spend in Church. God Himself is truly beyond our full comprehension, and the things He does aren't always easily described. The implications of constraining divine action to philosophical definitions can get hairy quickly.

Second, it involves the change of the Nicene Creed, the brief summation of our faith. The Catholics added a few words for a number of reasons in the middle of the first millennium, called the filioque. Now, the exact reasoning behind why they did this and why the Orthodox Church disagrees with it are quite complicated, but suffice to say that from our perspective it introduces changes in the way we understand the Holy Spirit and Christ as members of the Holy Trinity (when understood as strictly as possible). This, to us, is a change that is unallowable. Plus, part of the point of the Nicene Creed was that it wasn't supposed to be changed around, but that's beside the point.

Lastly, it involves the position of the Pope as infallible. The Orthodox Church actually recognizes the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) as the rightful head of the Church, but critically and historically as a head that is 'first among equals.' When the Church gathers together to make a declaration of faith, the Cathodox believe that the Church is infallible – that is to say, because the Holy Spirit will guide us together, we cannot err. The Catholics believe that the Pope, as head, constitutes all the authority needed for infallibility. The Orthodox believe this infallibility can only truly be present when we all gather together in a Ecumenical Council to reach an agreement, following in the tradition of councils like the one you can see in the Book of Acts. In assuming the authority of all the Church in one man, we think the Papacy has overstepped his bounds and has thus unwittingly accepted false doctrine over the years. Based on the historical and scriptural proof available, I think this is a more rational position than the Catholic one.

>>539083

As for the impact in my daily life:

Orthodox prayer is very much a common affair. There are morning and evening prayers, as well as prayers for mealtime and other occasions. The prayers we use have been passed down for centuries or longer, and are almost always prayers used by famous saints and ascetics in their lives. We're encouraged to set aside time every day to pray, dedicating part of our life to God as is proper and right. In the goal of reaching continuous prayer like the Apostle Paul instructed us, we're also encouraged to recite the Jesus prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner) throughout the day.

Speaking as a former Protestant, prayer used to be something that I'd do sporadically in the evening for a couple minutes. Through the process of becoming Orthodox, I suddenly saw my prayers in the light of millions of other Christians struggling throughout the ages to reach their salvation through fear and trembling. I've become very conscious of how much of my life is filled with sin, and how much God's mercy on us really matters.

In terms of Bible reading, there's a calendar of services that lists a short section of Scripture for every day of the year (intended to be used in Church if they held a service that day – you can actually see them all in use in monasteries). Though I usually read a little more than this, the calendar provides a 5-minute way to keep the Bible in your daily life. There aren't really any good excuses for not using it since it's so quick, so it's a great way to keep Scripture in your life even when you're busy.

As for resources:

I think the best 0-100 book about Orthodoxy you can probably get is this book, by Met. Kallistos Ware:

http://a.co/9Q14J6E

I really the works of Fr. Thomas Hopko, an Orthodox Christian who recently reposed (God rest his soul).

He wrote several books covering a basic A-Z of Orthodoxy, which is available online here:

https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/

He also did podcasts on a number of different things in his later years, including contemporary issues and Church teachings:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko

Very rarely does Fr. Hopko ever issue a theologoumena without qualifying it as such, which makes him a good teacher.

If you're interested in learning about the lives of saints, I really like the talks of (now Bishop) Irenei on Church fathers throughout the ages:

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/holyfathers

His voice can make you a little drowsy, but he knows his stuff.

Regardless of these online resources, the best resource you have is the Orthodox Church itself. There's no better way to learn about the Church than through the process of catechism, since the Priest/Deacon leading you will help you through any questions that you have.

cute girl

I would like to make a purely intuitive argument for the reformed faith. The reformed faith puts the focus and power entirely on God. We as sinful beings have no role in our salvation. It is all done accordingly to God's will and mercy. Our sins are not forgiven through priests and personal penance, but instead the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Our works do not justify us because Jesus Christ's sacrifice was sufficient. We do not pray to/through saints, but directly to the Father through the man Christ Jesus. We do not bow before statues and icons, but only before God. It is a strict adherence to God's commandments. It is through Jesus Christ's death on the cross that we are justified and sanctified.

The reformed faith is a very difficult faith to follow as it is in mankind's sinful nature to idolize and be prideful. It takes strength to humble yourself and put your trust and love fully in God. If you are primarily interested in vain traditions look elsewhere, but if you are looking to find shelter from the vanity of worldly things then God is calling you.

>>539129

Is the Presbyterian church considered "Reformed"?

>>539131

Calvinist and reformed can be used interchangeably. Presbyterian is a type of Calvinist/reformed church.

>>539129

>The reformed faith is a very difficult faith to follow

<This is what Calvinists actually believe

>>539136

When I say we play no role I mean we could never choose God without his assistance because of how unrighteous we are. When we believe we are made righteous by God. Also Matthew 18:15-17 isn't related to salvation. It is about church governance.

>>539109

>saint Augustine was a prot

I’m laughing

>>539145

>Also Matthew 18:15-17 isn't related to salvation. It is about church governance.

I thought that point was something about papists so I went and grabbed that little point.

>>538980

This

>>539103

>That image doesn't mean anything, all those Eastern rite churches are still part of the worldwide Roman Catholic Church and are still united under the direction Pope, the Vicar of Christ.

All of the Orthodox churches are part of the worldwide Orthodox Catholic Church and are still united under the direction of Christ Jesus, our Lord, not men who claim to be Christ on all levels but physical.

>‘The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who speaks. Does the pope accord a favour or pronounce an anathema? It is Jesus Christ who accords the favour or pronounces that anathema. So that when the pope speaks we have no business to examine.’

>>539045

It's more than mere tolerance: it could cost our souls if we are wrong; I agree on avoiding memes and generalisations, I agree that we should not debate by simply insulting one another and calling others names (hence why I stopped talking with most people from the alt-right)…but we need to discern between Christian tolerance and the modern concept of """tolerance""". A slap on the face can be an act of love if done for the right thing, and not rebuking someone is a son not a gesture of love (at best """love""" as intended by the secular world).

>>539146

Never said he was a protestant, but we would consider his theology proto-reformed.

>>539129

>>539136

The only thing we add to salvation is the sin that makes it necessary.

>>539281

Bump and thank you