/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>538541

>catholic church burns thousands if people

>"okay now we see that, that was bad"

Also the fact that he's wrong

>>538553

wow it's almost like the pope is just another man and not some divinely inspired wizard gee who would have guessed?

>>538556

Your own "saints" and magisterium have taught differently in the past. The Bible even prescribes the death penalty. Was God wrong?

>>538556

In fact, you even agreed to the Quinisext Ecumenical Council which prescribes the death penalty for women and doctors who commit abortions.

pope's a cuck

As far as I see it, it is kust to kill a proven murderer. I also agree that it is against Christian charity to send someone to eternal damnation when they have not repented of their crime.

I think murders should be sentenced to death, but that leaders of nation should as A standard practice to commute this to life in prisonment. In sich declarations it would be clear the penalty is being commuted due to Christian charity, not because the murderer does not deserve to die for his crime.

all I'm going to do for the rest of this papacy is scrunch up my nose and say "uguu~" every time Papa says something goofy

>>538556

This is your mind on Novos Ordo.

>>538556

Didn't popes as late as JP2 allow for the death penalty in some circumstances? Even the Papal State used to have capital punishment

Proves the doctrine is changeable

>>538537

>It would be better for X to happen

>You should do X

Do you see the difference?

>>538534

The Catholic Church has been against the death penalty for as long as I've been alive.

… and I was born in 1972.

Stop blaming everything on Francis.

>>538541

>>538556

>what's the problem

It's heresy. Saying it is contrary to the gospel would be implying it is intrinsically evil. Church dogma teaches civil authorities have the right to execute criminals.

>>538561

>how were the crusades justified if capital punishment is always wrong?

I think you realize that war and capital punishment aren't the same thing.

>>538585

Instead of just making guesses, why not just google what the John Paul 2 said about capital punishment? He was apparently against it also. People are so uncharitable towards Pope Francis, it's unbelievable.

"May the death penalty, an unworthy punishment still used in some countries, be abolished throughout the world." Pope John Paull II

>>538589

>I think you realize that war and capital punishment aren't the same thing.

They aren't the same but they involve the idea of justified killing. The problem is when crusaders did it they acted as the judge, jury and executioners themselves, so there is more possibility of misjudgement and sin.

It's quite absurd to sanction crusading, which involves justified killing in a chaotic environment, yet be against judicial-court capital punishment in a controlled environment.

>>538596

I think you would have to look at "just war" theory. Even in war there are certain moral boundaries you don't cross. One of which is you shouldn't kill or torture prisoners of war who don't pose a threat. And that's pretty old, very traditional, catholic ethical philosophy. Pope Francis isn't saying anything that wasn't already implicit in the Catholic canon. And as I mentioned earlier, even PJ 2 was against the death penalty.

>>538601

> One of which is you shouldn't kill or torture prisoners of war who don't pose a threat.

Just war theory has metrics that sanction killing people. It allows for the initiation of force to kill perceived threats, it also allows for collateral damage as long as its proportional and attempts are made to mitigate it.

Capital punishment also has metrics that sanction killing people. It's not about torturing people but about eliminating "threats" to society and innocent folks, and unlike war the collateral damage is far easier to mitigate.

War is a choatic mess, it's totally incoherent to sanction killing people in war environments yet be against killing people via a court of law, where a perpetrator gets to tell his side of the story and is presumed innocent, and shows evidence, etc.

>Pope Francis isn't saying anything that wasn't already implicit in the Catholic canon. And as I mentioned earlier, even PJ 2 was against the death penalty.

can you imagine Francis or PJ2 calling a modern crusade against muhammedans? They're quite far removed from what Catholicism used to be.

anyway the bible clearly allows for capital punishment, Gen. 9:6; Romans 13, not hard.

Daily reminder: The Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.

>>538607

It's America you fool.

>>538587

Hmm well I guess that proves it. No funny business going on here.

>>538587

>and I was born in 1972

And? The Catholic church is a little bit older than you, buddy. Why do modernists think the Catholic church was founded in December 1965?

>>538586

>alright God, you have one chance to create a nation

>this nation is going to be an example to all the world

>O geez, why did you create a capital punishment laden, Church and state separated ethnostate?! The Catholic Church is gonna be mad…

I do believe God sent him to us for two reasons:

1) test us;

2) bring all the weird "Catholic" out and revealing them so that, when a traditional pope will come, they'll be unable to hide again and will leave filled with their own disgust for the Church.

Holding fast to the roots of the Church and its traditions will be the real challenge.

>>538633

>Everything I don't like is a test from God

>I can't possibly be wrong about a single issue

>>538637

Nah, I could be completely wrong.

Those are but the opinions of a bag of flesh and bones.

Look up:

" pope francis body language. on youtube.

This man is not a holy man.

>>538657

This?

>>538537

That's right anon, the Bible supports it, we should totally execute heretics. Now I don't see a flag on your post, and I have faith you're following the right path, but just to be sure some inquisi-kind gentlemen will be over shortly to put you to the cros-ask you some questions about some things. Might want to brush up on your Catechism, not for any particular reason or pressing concern of course, it's just a fun book to read is all.

>>538534

This man shall be impaled for his heresy

>„"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.“‭‭ Genesis‬ ‭9:6‬

>„So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.“ Numbers‬ ‭35:33‬ ‭

The death penalty is a fundamental essence of the gospel. Not to forget thatthe first acts Jesus does of earth when he returns is to exterminate every human from the middle east.

Just remember spalm 2:

„Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!" He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them. Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'" Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!“

‭‭

this is not some soft whimp, this is the man that will kill and punish many people IN THE NAME OF RIGHTEOUSNESS

>>539244

Are you aware that though the old law is applicable, Jesus Christ fulfilled the OT ?

Are you aware of the fact that he preached charity and to love your enemies and pray for them, their conversion, and to love thy neighbor as you love thyself ?

Taking a life is violating Creation.

And I'm sick of pseudo-Christian crypto nazis justifying genocide and generally killing people by using the OT.

Yes God did all that and more, but our benchmark, so to speak, is Jesus Christ, His life, His deeds.

Stop using your incompetent Sola Scriptura stuff to justify what is not justifyable in the light of Christ.

Because do you know what does it make you ? A jew or muslim.

>>539252

>Old Law

The lawwas not given until chapter 12 of exodus. For this paul argues that the promise to abraham was before the law and that the law which was made 400 years later was not interfering because it was prior to it. So if god says to noah kill those, but the law which "could be" destroyed later by jesus, came later, the first law will not be affected because it existed before the one dissolved.

>nazi bla bla bla

God does not say that killings in acts of war are murder, only killings because of hate or other unjust reasons are considered murder and by this the executor has to be exterminated.

Nazis will not be persecuted for the extermination of the jews, they will be punished for going against Gods people. For the same God brought up the Babylonians to punish the jews, but he caused it, he blessed nebucadnezer for doing his bidding, but told him, that because he acted against them his people, his kingdom shall be punished for it (in the future). Yet the babylonians did not sin against god, but they still deserved to be punished.

>>539252

>Yes God did all that and more, but our benchmark, so to speak, is Jesus Christ, His life, His deeds.

Dont you know that the scripture is full of prophetic events yet to happen. About half of the prophets still wait for their fulfillment.

Jesus said He did not come as a king, but a servant, but at his return he will be the king who slaughters the nation.

Did he not say that in the furture we are to judge the world and angels, so why should be be not be judging today? If you say its for the furture, then burn the church courts, burn the ruling church officials, for we are to stay servants and not rule or judge each other.

If you dont know the OT, then you dont know the laws of this world, pf heavens and you dont know how god thinks. You just follow blind leaders, you will fall in the pit just as your leaders. You think following regulations of men, then with men your bed will be. If you follow the guidances and oracles of God, which are able to make wise and which are holy, then you will go to god.

Paul said it all scripture is holy good for correction, if you claim its old and gone, ignoring holy instructions, you are dead and without hope

>>539375

>Paul said it all scripture is holy good for correction, if you claim its old and gone, ignoring holy instructions, you are dead and without hope

Yea yea

Knowing Old Testament history is good but the said sins in it are no longer sins.

>>539237

False flagging is a sin anon.

>>539376

>sins are no longer sins

>Yeah god says he hates sin, he says that those sins are evil and bad, he says that the OT is a instruction in righteousness.

>God says he is eternal and does mot change.

>1500 years later he thinks, oh shit, those bad things are not bad anymore, i changed my mind I was in error.

> now things he called evil are good and things he calls good are evil.

I am sure you guys know exactly who god is and how he works and thinks

>>539385

How does that follow form anything I said? You are projecting your failures upon me. Here, let me do the same:

>God decides to give you new book

>Old Testament follower gets envious because God was charitable

Come on now.

>>538534

Satanic pope gonna be satanic

>>538537

That verse doesn't support the death penalty though. It's saying if someone causes a little one to stumble, it would be better for that person if they had been drowned instead. Because when they die they will have to answer for causing those little ones to stumble, so if they died prematurely before they did that it would be better for them. But that says nothing about whether we should be executing people.

Honestly, this is the last straw for me. I am and will remain Catholic, but I will no longer defend Francis, ever.

>>539511

>it took this long for you to say this

Well, better late than never m8

>>538556

>[citation needed]

I think over a thousand were burned in Würzburg alone during the height of the witch hunts in Europe. You don't have to go all apologetic to admit that.

>>539539

Indeed.

>>539548

>Like the last Pope, he's involved in some shady NWO stuff

Citation pls. polite sage for double post

>>538534

This Pope is too coherent with what appeals to left wing crowd.

Even he willingly is trying to cast off some doubts in left wing crowd, or he is compromised by some NWO being blackmailed with something.

the reason we hold that abortion is wrong, is because each and every human being is made in the image and likeness of God - having an immortal soul that reflects something of the nature of our Eternal God

this is why we echo God who has declared that human life is sacred

the death penalty is reserved as punishment for those whom desecrate what God has declared sacred, such as in taking the life of another - or as in the Law given to the Prophets; through rape

The Sovereign Lord has declared that every Government is under His control, and while they may sin, and receive His judgement upon their nation, they are still His sword for executing justice

and the Moral Law of God still stands, that anyone who desecrates sacred life has forfeited their own life - so State-sanctioned execution against murderers and rapists is still an extension of the justice of God

>>539511

And it doesn't bother you that the last 5 Popes have also spoken out against the death penalty? So, it was perfectly ok for the Pope to speak out against the death penalty … until Francis did it.

Are you literally 12? Because I can excuse it if you're very young and this is your first Pope; but if you're old enough to remember Benedict and JP2, then you're either false flagging or you've been a hermited monk.

>>539569

Yes, it does bother me. But Francis appears to be going further than the past two, who are all I remember during my life.

>>539586

He's really not going any further than the other two. We just live in an age where everyone with a Twitter account is a "journalist" and screams their opinion around the world for all to see. We get so inundated with those opinions that we assume there's a consensus or we assume there's more than one event.

5,000 people "reporting" on something the Pope said doesn't mean he said it 5,000 times in 5,000 different ways. He said it once, affirming what many Popes before have said, it's just blown up all over the place and opinions are heard, repeated, expanded upon, and disseminated with the simple lazy click of a "share" button.

>>539548

>He accepted/encouraged homosexuals to join the church without encouraging them to become straight as well.

no he didn't, stop this meme

Martin Luther diddled nuns

>>539591

I understand what you're saying and agree, but my take is that Francis wants to change official Catholic teaching on capital punishment. Hard to know the truth when I don't speak Italian and am reliant on the lying press. That said, even if Francis isn't going further than the last five popes on this issue, aren't they all basically going against the previous 260 popes before them?

Anyway, I'm not done with Francis being pope or saying he's "not my pope" or that he's in any way illegitimate. I'm just done defending him. I think he's a bad pope, far too involved with left-wing anti-Christian politics.

>>538541

guy on the left looks like my econometrics teacher

>>539593

>no he didn't, stop this meme

And this is why I am always leery of anything negative reported on Francis, or something he may have said. But even a stopped watch is right twice a day, and all of these reportings can't all be wrong or coincidental.

>>539601

CCC 2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/death-penalty-capital-punishment/catholic-campaign-to-end-the-use-of-the-death-penalty.cfm

The official stance of the Church is now, and has always been, that the death penalty is only for when non-lethal methods are available. Francis isn't trying to change anything. He's just affirming what the Church has always taught.

>>539611

>Francis isn't trying to change anything. He's just affirming what the Church has always taught.

Thank you for clarify. This is not what is being reported, clearly.

>>538534

<what is his problem?

>"plx no kill me ;_;"

>>539603

Most of them are, he literally said "On that occasion I said this: If a person is gay and seeks out the Lord and is willing, who am I to judge that person?"

Then he followed it up by saying he hopes homosexuals go to confession to repent for their sins.

These Protestants just take out 'who am I to judge' from it to bear false witness against him.

>>539628

Haters gonna hate. That's a stylin' hat.

>>539622

While it's true that statements like that are taken out of context, things like amoris Laetitia imply heresy along with all of the people he promotes.

>>539622

There are really two things going on here that people should be aware of.

First, the fact is this Pope is saying things in an ambiguous way so as to please different crowds, and the quotes are meant to be dissected by both sides to keep them both happy. It is the classic politician's dilemma: he doesn't want to clarify his position because to do so would offend one side.

And the other things is generally, no matter how much intentionally a Pope does this, different people can always take their personal subjective interpretation of his words (or anyone's words) to mean whatever they want. That old underlying issue is just going to a dangerous extreme today, since he clearly seems to know this game and plays by it skillfully.

>>539611

what about burning heretics. wasn't that allowed by the church?

>work as a judge in a third world country

>serial child murderer case

>guy tortured dozens of street children to death every year

>is being kept in chief of police's spare bedroom during trial because jail is flooded

>convict the murderer based on scientific forensic evidence provided by visiting American anthropologist

>if he ever gets out, know that he will keep killing

>give him maximum sentence of 15 years

>will likely get parolled in 7 years

>prisons are overcrowded so will likely have to commute his sentence in about 3 or 4 years from now to make room for more narcos

>he'll get out sooner if he escapes which he probably will because the prison is controlled by the prisoners and the wall has holes in it

>wish I could just sentence him to death but that law recently got overturned because of the Pope

>oh well hopefully he doesnt kill too many kids

>really wish our society either had enough resources to keep prisoners locked up to protect people from them or the balls to kill them to protect people from them but I guess it's for the best that society is disintegrating into savagry

what up super bishop aka commie jew fake pope

>>540902

>>540902

> Both of these popes are correct

> Does not compute

i don't want to misrepresent our Roman Catholic friends, but i believe this type of conundrum has come up several times before - and is explained through making a distinction between when the Pope speaks his own personal opinion and when he speaks infallibly 'from the chair'*

so while this may not seem a satisfactory answer to many, it is an issue that has been raised here many, many, many times before and i'd suggest you lurk moar before spouting your incredulity again

now saying that, i think it would be incredibly helpful if there was a Roman Catholic sticky which answered some of the frequently asked questions about doctrine and the RC dogmas that have been defined as ex-cathedra

and it probably wouldn't hurt to have a compendium of tradition as outlined by the Magisterium - or at least, the most important traditions which weren't recorded in the Scripture

~

*ex cathedra

>>540935

Papal infallibility is like sola scriptura on the other side of the ledger something that can very easily be misinterpreted and misrepresented. It’d be nice if more people argued in good faith here but I’m not holding my breath.

inb4 "it’s all the catlicks/protties fault!"

>>540342

The church just declared heretics, the state decided their punishment. Some monarchs opted to exile them, some burned them at the stake. Don't blame the church for the excesses of secular authority (though they may have been doing it for zealous though misguided reasoning)

>>540435

ITT:

Lies

>>540994

> It’d be nice if more people argued in good faith here

yes, that would be rather pleasant

but since i hold to the doctrine of total depravity, and know even on his best day the greatest saint felt like he was a attached to a decaying corpse with so much Sin coursing through his flesh - and none of us are anywhere near Paul's power level - then we have some pretty unregenerate/unsanctified folks bouncing around this board

… and moreover we're all from the *chans so it's an absolute poopfest some days

still, at least we're not on reddit