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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 46e6578082b4404⋯.jpg (14.63 KB, 338x335, 338:335, 1496672057145.jpg)

e9d5fb No.538248

Why do you think Truth exists? I am genuinely curious as to why you guys believe what you do, all of the various sects on here. I'll give you my position on things so you know where I am coming from, because I am genuinely interested in what you have to say.

The whole world is and has been one giant game of power politics since before the emergence of man. Hypocrisy is rampant, EVERYWHERE. Violence has always been deemed golden if it is acceptable to a particular ideology, whether it be religious or secular is irrelevant. The churches had no problem enforcing their dogma through violent means when they were on top, but at the same time, they always campaigned against the abuse of Christians by Muslims. The same thing happens in reverse. The desire for powerful rhetoric is strong among every in-group because they need it to defend their way of life and to sanction violence against any opponents. The cries about losses from your in-group always ring louder than the worries about out-group losses, even if the latter are much more severe.

You can see this quite clearly in modern warfare when examining things such as "war crimes". The nation that dropped two nuclear bombs (only one to use these weapons) on Japan goes around the world today asserting who can and can not do what during a war. The fake tears and calls to arms are merely tactics employed by the state to reinforce its legitimacy, and I don't think it has ever been any different with the church as a structure. The adherence to strict dogma and the bashing of any dissidents has little to do with actual truth (if such a thing exists), but more to do with reinforcing the moral authority over a population.

Now, having said this, I don't think these are necessarily bad (no such thing) things. To have a functioning society, you need to have a populace that believes in something and strives to act a certain way. This is why I think Communism failed so hard, because nobody had any ideals worthy of preservation. On the other hand, the problem arises when trying to assert these subjective beliefs with the claim to universal Truth, and that's when you run into the inevitable (and imo, unsolvable) problem of hypocrisy. The only way around this is to assert to the moral superiority of the ideology even more, but that leads to even more hypocrisy.

How do you guys get around this?

a4cfd6 No.538254

File: e48597de7d11578⋯.jpg (222.65 KB, 800x562, 400:281, 34904378632_04b4e0a4cb_c.jpg)

>Why do you think Truth exists?

> I'll give you my position on things so you know where I am coming from

do you think your position is true or false?

Anyway, yes truth exists, obviously, the alternative is a contradiction and incoherent.

Why do I think the apostolic church Christ started is true? Because of logic, experience, intuition and history.


1a562e No.538256

>>538248

>Truth does not exist.

Is the above statement true? If not, truth exists. If so, then you have made a truth valuation and contradicted yourself; therefore truth exists.

If you don't subscribe to the above rationale, then you do not subscribe to the rules of basic logic. That is fine, and entirely your prerogative, but if you don't subscribe to basic rules of logic, then you eschew your right to argue a point altogether since no meaningful conclusions can be reached without (1) adherence to logic, and (2) truth. So, basically, anyone who doesn't believe in truth is simply not worth talking to or trying to convince because they are not logical or rational people.

I'll take it one step further, though. If you do not believe in logical principles, then you don't adhere to the logical principle of non-contradiction, in which case the statement…

>Truth exists and also does not exist.

… is acceptable to you; therefore truth exists.


e9d5fb No.538264

>>538254

>do you think your position is true or false?

I think my position is based on an honest observation of how the world functions, and therefore true in a sense.

>Anyway, yes truth exists, obviously, the alternative is a contradiction and incoherent.

That is exactly what I see the world as.

>Why do I think the apostolic church Christ started is true? Because of logic, experience, intuition and history.

I think it survived because it was adopted for political (power) purposes. I also think it's going to dwindle and eventually disappear because it will be replaced by the cult of technology, and it already has to an extent.

>>538256

>Is the above statement true? If not, truth exists. If so, then you have made a truth valuation and contradicted yourself; therefore truth exists.

Again, basic observations and assumptions are not the same as a universal truth. My assumption of the world being a power play has nothing to do with Truth as Christians define it. Language games will not change this. Logic is a force spawned from nature, and thus adapted as a powerful power tool to consolidate human thought.

>then you eschew your right to argue a point altogether since no meaningful conclusions can be reached without (1) adherence to logic, and (2) truth

You don't need these to just look at the world and state basic observable facts. Mental masturbation is completely unnecessary when discussing these things. I am mainly asking how you get around the points stated and how Christians deal with them.


9741d3 No.538268

File: 235acdd4359d48c⋯.png (324.45 KB, 611x717, 611:717, 235acdd4359d48cc0e0b8c4278….png)

>>538248

>Everything is subjective man

>Truth does not exist because everything is subjective

>One mans thrash is another mans treasure!

Of course, looking at things from a purely materialistic point of view then that is the most logical conclusion. But if nothing in this world matters, if we all can choose what to focus on and to believe in. Why would you ever want to think that the world is this cold place where you will die alone and face some bottomless abyss at the end of your life when there is an alternative? An alternative of a loving God that loves us and is the very embodiment of Truth, Justice and Love?

The most logical choice would be to choose a world view that empowers you rather than rob you of hope and love. If everything is subjective and you choose your own truth then God is the best Truth you can have.


e9d5fb No.538272

>>538268

I'm not denying its value, just criticizing the rampant hypocrisy I see. I also think it's much harder to sell something like religion to people without having a strong means of enforcing it and having active role models to show people how good of a life can be lived by following certain moral rules.

>Why would you ever want to think that the world is this cold place where you will die alone and face some bottomless abyss at the end of your life when there is an alternative?

I mean, in the end, that's what it essentially is. Conflict drives history, and humans aren't much different from ants once you look at mass society and how the world functions on a large scale. Personally, I find the latter repulsive, but that's just my 2 cents.

>An alternative of a loving God that loves us and is the very embodiment of Truth, Justice and Love

I am on board with the morality espoused by Christian thought. I am a big fan of self-control, not worshiping the material, etc. but I do not see a way to avoid the material foundation of the world. I don't think the foundation is divinely inspired and don't see how an afterlife would possibly fit in.

>The most logical choice would be to choose a world view that empowers you rather than rob you of hope and love

Exactly, that's what every worldview aspires to be, because it has to empower the population or else it will fade into obscurity. This is why movements like hippies, MGTOW, or whatever else will eventually collapse and be forgotten. They don't empower the biological reproduction of humans and don't give people a purpose besides just shagging. Having said this, I don't think there's any ultimate point to advancing such a worldview besides for your own good (if you are on board with the ideology).


f86acc No.538273

>>538248

>Why do you think Truth exists?

Manifestations of God, the spiritual world is more real than the world we have. Politics are only a human level of how the world works, you're missing the further dimensions of who the elite are worshiping/why they do the rites and rituals that they do.


e9d5fb No.538275

>>538273

>Manifestations of God, the spiritual world is more real than the world we have. Politics are only a human level of how the world works, you're missing the further dimensions of who the elite are worshiping/why they do the rites and rituals that they do.

Got any links or texts to read?


f86acc No.538292

>>538275

This one is about freemasonry https://archive.org/details/TheDeadlyDeceptionJimShaw_201606

Zachary King - Former Satanic High Priest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzIDI34dI-o

Magicians making deals with demons reveal spiritual world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_UvpPc6rfg

Just in case you haven't seen it Marching to Zion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=typ2pl2L47k

The connection between theosophy and the new world order. The Age Of Evil - Theosophy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1WJEOJ87H8&index=33

Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret, by Dr Bill Warnerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

How 911 was a mass ritual https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ11_blX2t8&index=87

Saturn Conspiracy part 1 The secret God https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NirJzmPnaE8

Saturn conspiracy part 2 YHWH is not saturn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzo-cJgeKT4

They sold their sold for Rock and roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSByCxGXXeM

Mostly watching (and sometimes reading) a lot of conspiracies and comparing who is wrong. Know your you enemy, and you find the true God.


a19345 No.538324

>>538248

Why do you think the world is in this sad state of affair lately? It is because we have lost the Truth, it is still there, but the eyes are not there.

Because we have lost the Truth, we are now living in a feverish bedlam of the madmen and the 'cult of selves' under the banner of 'progressives'. People make their own 'truths' out there, and as we are, fall short of the glory of God and even the tiniest speck of His creation, humans own 'truth' are nothing but a wild fantasies of the madman one after another.


4e6fdd No.538634

>>538272

>I mean, in the end, that's what it essentially is. Conflict drives history, and humans aren't much different from ants once you look at mass society and how the world functions on a large scale. Personally, I find the latter repulsive, but that's just my 2 cents.

There have been numeros occasions at which humanity has actually overcome it's basic animalstic side, and that just in terms of polticis while ignoring things such as art and philosophy. History isn't just driven by war and conflict alone, no society thrives on war and conflict alone, there is always a strive towards a moral order, it's essentially basic human logic since live by the sword, die by the sword, isn't just some phrase but the actual dynamic of power politics, "might is right" is always a short lived thing. Sure, this earthly order will be exposed to corruption and decay, as the city of man will always be, but it's not some coincidence that the poltical order of the world after a while always swings back into an equilibrium which has so far always been enforced by a moral order. You do not have to sell this moral order to people, just as you don't have to sell animalistic passion to them, simply because both are part of the human nature. I can understand your cultural pessismis from modern point of view, the last century has unleashed horrors beyond imagination, but it is foolish to asume that it has always been this way and that the current state of things will be the final form of humanity. It's somewhat depressing to live in an age of decay, but do not let your spirit succumb to eternal fatalism

>I am on board with the morality espoused by Christian thought. I am a big fan of self-control, not worshiping the material, etc. but I do not see a way to avoid the material foundation of the world.

Sounds as if you have accepted the metaphysical order of the world without recognizing the divine within it. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", this is the most important verse to understand the relation between the divine and the material. "The Word" originally means Logos, and Logos is the order of the world, as one is willing to accept order in the world, one must accept the concept of Logos. As sentient beings we are able to recognise the order of the world, this order manifests in the material, but it isn't the material itself. The most universal example for this is mathematics, numbers are abstractions, numbers aren't materialistic, the whole concept of mathematics isn't materialistic, yet math works in an utmost beatiful way and applies perfectly to the material. Accepting the "Word" means accepting the validity of non materliastic concepts, the other choice would be relativism, which would entail that human understanding is merely subjectiv and relative, and that essentially means that the world is total chaos and all your understanding, be it scientific or otherwise, is just an illusion. I find the latter hardly sustainable as you can't really prove a concept that denies the existence of prove. Now to get back on track, if one accepts that we can recognise the order of the world, it means that our given sense of logic is not only beyond humanity but also beyond matter. The concept of morals is no difference, we have a sense for morality and the moral law itself resonates with our logical understanding of the world. Finally it all comes down to what we see as the origin of this order. In the christian view, God isn't just the creator of this order as this would probably make him more a demiruge kind of figure but the order itself, the Word is with God and God is the word. That being said, one can recognize the validity of the Logos without being christian, but he has to overcome materialism and accept that the world isn't as simple as that, even if it would be easier that way. In this essence there is only one absolute truth, the Logos, the order, and, for a christian, god.


4e6fdd No.538639

>>538272

>>538634

> I don't think the foundation is divinely inspired and don't see how an afterlife would possibly fit in.

The basics of an "afterlife", or as I rather call it a continuation of being, are simple. It comes down to the nature of consciousness and being, expressed in the concept of the soul. In it's most basic definition the soul has the ability to experience being, making it the foundation of our consciousness. The soul itself cannot be matter, arguing otherwise would give matter qualities that essentially merges it with spirtualism, e.g. if the soul is matter, it follows that matter possess the quality to experience being, which in turn would give stones and dirt a basic form of sentience which isn't necessarily illogical, but kind of negates the whole concept of matter in my opinion. If the soul is non materialstic, there is no reason to asume it to disappear after death, in fact, even if we ignore all of this, I know of nothing that can simply disappear, doing so would break our understanding of the universe. The concept of an afterlife is logically far more sound than simple nothingness, aside from how the later is supposed to look like anways. However, how this afterlife looks like is of course debatable.




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