/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>Look upon my faith and not my works

No he judges our works as well

so no

>>536555

Overall it's fairly orthodox, but

>Look upon my faith and not my works

We would not say this. Faith doesn't save because it's something righteous which pleases God, but because it lays hold of Christ. We don't want God to look upon anything done by us, we want Him to look upon Christ alone.

>You are my God from the bossom of my mother

This is just clunky English. It would be better translated "You have been" than "You are".

>>536555

Seems kind of spergy to base a prayer on a theological debate

Pray for mercy and guidance, like always

>>536593

>>536611

>>536630

(you)

>>536555

Sauce, frate?

>>536555

I am protestant and it represents what I believe to the letter on a short read.

>>536630

>This is just clunky English. It would be better translated "You have been" than "You are".

s-sorry, I just translated it quickly

>>536680

Don't know the original source of the prayer, but as I said, it's part of my Romanian prayer book.

>>536645

It's not based on the sperging between Catholics and Protestants. It's just part of a prayer.

>>536593

Exactly, but we ask Him to not look for our works, because even if we have faith and trust in Him, we also sin everyday. If your works justify us as our faith does, then 1) we're all fucked, and 2) deathbed conversions would be pointless.

Not to say that we are not saved by a synergy of faith and works, of course, unlike what sola fide claims. But the way it's worded here makes it sound agreeable to more or less everyone.

>>536630

>>536689

>Not to say that we are not saved by a synergy of faith and works, of course, unlike what sola fide claims.

What do you mean by synergy? Sola fide means one is saved by faith alone, but that faith is necessarily accompanied by works as proof of the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

as explained at http://justforcatholics.org/a59.htm

>>536693

Catholic/Orthodox view: Grace -> faith -> works -> faith -> works -> etc.

Protestant view: Grace -> faith (including the natural consequences of saving faith, so, works, etc)

>>536555

It's quite nice. >>536630 has a point, though.

>>536555

wtf I love orthodoxy now

>>536555

Honestly, it looks protestant biased on account of the relentless denials of pelagianism that it contains.

If it's from an orthodox prayer book, I'll say it's astonishing…but not surprising.

>>541241

Yeah, now that you mention it, it does have a strong anti-Pelagian streak to it.

It's common for Orthodox prayers to specifically (but usually implicitly) point out that X or Y heresy is wrong (with the usual targets being of course Arianism and Macedonianism, and also sometimes Monophysitism/Monothelitism).

Although it's also not wrong… We are saved by faith and works, but these works are the works of Christ working through us, they are not our own, and they in turn give us more faith.

>>541253

>We are saved by faith and works, but these works are the works of Christ working through us, they are not our own, and they in turn give us more faith.

shhh….be careful with that idea. The romans might hear you and think you're talking about "alien righteousness" and confuse you for a protestant. :^)

>>541266

When I take a look at the Catholics, they don't seem to believe different things than we do as to what saves us (faith and works, granted by our cooperation with God's grace)… Their language of "merits" is admittedly strange though, but they know what Pelagianism is as well as we do.

>>541286

I see the same thing. Though, instead of arguing about "merit", we just sorta have an autistic kick about what the origin of "cooperation" is.

For us, god is ultimately the source of our being saved, so we cannot say any cooperation is 100% of our own, since we would not even know who to cooperate with if god had not revealed himself to us. Thus, all we can say is 100% certain to belong to us as humans is rejection of the gospel.

>>541292

"Cooperation" implies a relationship, and St Paul calls us "fellow-workers" with God. So, we agree with you that it is God Who pushes us to cooperate with Him to begin with. Our works are not our own, as they are Christ working through us, but our faith is not our own either - both our faith and our works are gifts of God's grace, however, we have the free will to reject this grace, and in fact that's what we do with every sinful act we commit. But if we come to have the flame of faith appear in our heart, it is because, consciously or not, we have found the humility to accept God's love for us.

>>541302

>But if we come to have the flame of faith appear in our heart, it is because, consciously or not, we have found the humility to accept God's love for us.

Eh, Lutheranism would word this more passively. For us, it is not that we would say that we have found the humility to accept god, but rather that we have not accepted the arrogance to reject him.

You do have to realise, though: our entire philosophy is rooted in correcting catholic abuses against orthodox christianity. namely, in luther's time, this would be the over reliance and abuse of ex opere operato, and all of the pelagian implications one could accidentally draw from that.

Thus, our language repudiates "works" (operato), but it must be understood in its historical context.

>>541266

Actually what he said there sounds quite a bit like infused righteousness

>>541292

>For us, god is ultimately the source of our being saved, so we cannot say any cooperation is 100% of our own, since we would not even know who to cooperate with if god had not revealed himself to us.

You don't sound very Protestant

>>541302

>St Paul calls us "fellow-workers" with God

No he doesn't, and that's not what he means. Paul does not describe every Christian, and he doesn't say that we are fellow workers with God in terms of the work of salvation. Paul says that ministers are fellow workers with God in the work of teaching and leading His people.

>>541364

>this would be the over reliance and abuse of ex opere operato, and all of the pelagian implications one could accidentally draw from that.

>Thus, our language repudiates "works" (operato)

That is not what ex opere operato means. Ex opere operato refers to the fact that the grace conferred by a sacrament comes from the nature of the sacrament itself, not being dependent on some quality in the minister or the participant. And the Reformation was not about 'works'. It was not about whether man could earn his way into heaven. According to Luther himself, the "heart of the matter", the "hinge upon which it all turns", was whether man was capable of co-operating with divine grace or if man was so dead in sin that God had to do everything in salvation.

>>541384

You can be a Gnostic fatalist, or accept that man is not passive

>>541384

Paul also refers to himself and Apollo as coworkers in a salvific sense because the speaks of God giving the increase and they both just planted and watered. This indicates God's work and also speaks of God rewarding this labor. So it is Salvific in nature given the nature of meritous reward for this Grace enabled labour and the fact that man cannot defile the temple of the Spirit, which is the people addressed and human beings.