/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Jude 1:9

>Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

The angels and demons dispute over who will inherit us. No one will avoid this - Moses did not avoid this, and not even our Lord Jesus Christ avoided this.

Isaiah 3:12

>As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths.”

The LXX translates "children" to "tax-collectors" and "women" to "creditors". As such, this is a symbol of the Jews's submission to the devil. The demons, these "tax-collectors" wish to recover what is their inheritance at our death.

Psalm 7:1-2

>O Lord my God, in You I put my trust; Save me from all those who persecute me; And deliver me, Lest they tear me like a lion, Rending me in pieces, while there is none to deliver.

This is obviously referring to the devil and his demons, who are like lions seeking to devour us. Without the Lord, we cannot be saved from them, as they seek to obtain our soul after our death.

Psalm 22:20-21

>Deliver Me from the sword, My precious life from the power of the dog. Save Me from the lion’s mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me.

Again, the demons try to take our souls at our death, and we cry for the Lord to deliver us from them.

Psalm 119:80

>Let my heart be blameless regarding Your statutes, That I may not be ashamed.

Hell is this shame, but we cannot escape it if our heart is not blameless regarding the Lord's statues.

Psalm 124:4-6

>Then the waters would have overwhelmed us, The stream would have gone over our soul; Then the swollen waters Would have gone over our soul.” Blessed be the Lord, Who has not given us as prey to their teeth.

The LXX transltes "the swollen waters" as "the irresistible waters". Then the demons seeking to devour us is irresistible, but the Lord can deliver us from them.

_____

How can you reject this true and apostolic teaching? I can understand if you're reading the (((Masoretic))) text for the OT, but the NT is very clear.

It always struck me as similar to other eastern systems of posthumous struggle and liberation, like the "Bardo Thodol".

>>534773

Because Tollhouses are gnostic garbage that was, influenced by eastern religions, like Buddhism and Mazdaism. at some degree, tollhouses will remind you Chinvat Bridge in Zoroastrianism, and when wicked would cross the bridge, Daevas would take it to Daruzakh, Realm of Angra maniyu). I wish that this Gnostic garbage would DIE as soon as possible. This degenerate teaching is prime reason that most of the believers in my parish go to the church because of tollhouses rather than love of God and this became reason of why believers in my parish reduced overtime and was getting mocked because the story of demonic tax collectors. Only after I explained that it was a meme, some returned to the church.

>>534770

>The LXX

>(((Masoretic))) text

You sound like a KJOnlyist

>>534774

>toll houses are gnostic garbage

The teaching is explicitly taught by 123 Orthodox saints, and by many of our own liturgical texts. The doctrine is also recognized as the official and apostolic teaching of the Church by:

His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph, Primate of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia

His Grace Bishop Mitrophan, Ruling Hierarch of the Canadian Dioceses, Serbian Orthodox Church

His Eminence Archbishop Nicolae, Ruling Hierarch of the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in the Americas

His Eminence Archbishop Irénée, Ruling Hierarch of the Archdiocese of Canada, Orthodox Church in America

His Grace Bishop Ioan Casian of Vicina, Vicar Bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in the Americas

His Eminence Metropolitan Jonah, Former Primate of the Orthodox Church in America

You're the only Orthodox I know who claims this is a false teaching. Who taught you such a thing?

>>534780

>>534774

And also, this isn't the first time you post here claiming that this is "Gnostic garbage".

Do you need me to post some of the many Patristic texts that teach it? How many would be sufficient for you to stop spreading lies about the Church?

Or do you need me to post our own liturgical texts?

>>534780

>The teaching is explicitly taught by 123 Orthodox saints

And so what? This doesnt make it any more true. St. Basil Argued that Genesis should be understood literally, while Augustine and Origen ddn't. It was a theologoumena and it stayed this way.

>and by many of our own liturgical texts

That varies heavily

>The doctrine is also recognized as the official and apostolic teaching of the Church by

And nobody cares if some metropolitan says so. Our metropolitan recognized that Electro ID cards to be Satanic mark of the beast. Fortunately we dont have pope like infallable church authority that would add such bizzare teachings, such as tollhouses as official doctrine of the church.

>>534781

I didnt post it before through but I'm happy that not all of us believe in this garbage. so It would be nice if you would stop being a false witness.

>How many would be sufficient for you to stop spreading lies about the Church?

I dont, you do. You spread this degeneracy, that concentrates more on demons, than love of God almighty. We make memes about catholics for having teachings of purgatory, yet people like you try to spread the teachings about aerial tax collectors. If so, then adopt indulgences too, if sins can be payed by transdimensional gold. Its weird that Demons are so stronk, that they can even stop love of God reaching us.

>Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord…except tax collecting demons, that will require their credit back from you.

Even most of those who support the teachings of tollhouses take it in metaphorical view, as when man analyzes his past life and all the degeneracy he went through.

The sooner we will stop spreading this gnostic trash about celestial tax collectors, sooner we will stop loosing flock for this absurd reason.

>>534774

>influenced by eastern religions, like Buddhism and Mazdaism.

Pretty sure it's derived from the Egyptians. The whole proceeding through demonic majesties before whom you have to plead your innocence is literally how their bs judgement of the dead worked.

>>534785

Well, in that Part, I said about Gnosticism itself. Yes, it was also influenced by Greek and Egyptian Paganism, However, large mainstream in Gnosticism, such as escape from cycle of reincarnation, false god and illusion, and whats most important dualistic cosmology is originating from Zoroastrianism and Buddhism (and it was reached its apogee in Manichean teachings)

>>534784

>If so, then adopt indulgences too, if sins can be payed by transdimensional gold

You know indulgences can be made by others means than money, right?

eh whether it’s true or not it’s not a huge issue since it isn’t completely changing the doctrine, as it is still a podvig. the judgement will be a difficult time for everyone. however with purgatory, well that’s something completely different.

>>534798

Indeed it doesnt change the core doctrines bandits interpretations vary radically and this is the reason why it wasnt denounced as outright heresy. But I wouldnt say that it isnt a huge issue. I'm not totally against to interpretation of tollhouses as sort of flashbacks of your life, however adding retarded demon clerks alter it heavily to the point when those who believe in this trash are moved by fear of demons (which is foolish, as only fear we must have is that of our heavenly Father), rather than Love of our lord and saviour and they degrade to the point when they act like cattle, mechanically doing everything that is considered good works to gain transdimensional gold to """pay""" the interest rate for masturbation bills. This has a degrading effect on flock. And I saw many on our national forum, that either mocked Orthodoxy or Said that they couldnt accept it due to this retarded theologoumena. Fortunately after me (though I'm not the best at explanations) and many others explained to them that this is a meme, or at least metaphor without tax collecting demonic subhumans, they became more receptive to Orthodoxy (some even returned to the church).

Yes, weather you believe or not in this, doesnt affect your salvation. But I'm worried about state of our flock that is damaged by this vile teaching and that promotes slave mentality amongst them. I don't want my Church to lose faithful because of the remnant of this Gnostic trash from days long past.

>>534804

>bandits

and it's

>>534788

It's almost like you guys need a centralised power structure and one head to settle theological disputes, maybe a first among equals…

>>534784

>And so what? This doesnt make it any more true. St. Basil Argued that Genesis should be understood literally, while Augustine and Origen ddn't. It was a theologoumena and it stayed this way.

You gave an example that saints disagree on. However, the saints are unilateral in their support of the toll houses. It'd indeed be a theologoumenon if it weren't the sole teaching of the Orthodox tradition.

>That varies heavily

Not really, no.

>And nobody cares if some metropolitan says so. Our metropolitan recognized that Electro ID cards to be Satanic mark of the beast. Fortunately we dont have pope like infallable church authority that would add such bizzare teachings, such as tollhouses as official doctrine of the church.

Most bishops of the Russian, Greek, and Eastern European Churches will tell you that this is the official teaching of the Orthodox Church. This isn't a couple of misbehaving bishops here, but official doctrine.

>I didnt post it before through but I'm happy that not all of us believe in this garbage. so It would be nice if you would stop being a false witness.

I've seen a dozen posts by some Orthodox guy attacking this doctrine of the Church, and now I'm surprised it wasn't just one person.

>I dont, you do. You spread this degeneracy, that concentrates more on demons, than love of God almighty. We make memes about catholics for having teachings of purgatory, yet people like you try to spread the teachings about aerial tax collectors. If so, then adopt indulgences too, if sins can be payed by transdimensional gold. Its weird that Demons are so stronk, that they can even stop love of God reaching us.

You didn't answer the question.

>Even most of those who support the teachings of tollhouses take it in metaphorical view, as when man analyzes his past life and all the degeneracy he went through.

You have yet to address the scriptural evidence in the OP.

>The sooner we will stop spreading this gnostic trash about celestial tax collectors, sooner we will stop loosing flock for this absurd reason.

Your only argument against the doctrine is that you don't like the way it sounds, I see.

>>534881

>Which early fathers can you present to me who taught this?I know what you'll say, a whole bunch of people from after Christian persecution ended and widespread unregulated writings flourished. But what about really early writers? You'll give me a verse from Justin Martyr that works with tollhouses but makes no mentioning of them beyond a passing reference to demons at the hour of death that no one is denying. Maybe tollhouses aren't as week as I think they are, but its hard to believe when all I can get from people is the same me quotations from the same meme books and not really any development in argument quality.

I'll answer your question with a question, please excuse the rudeness of it. Can you give me texts from Christian writers, prior to the legalization of Christianity, that prove that venerating icons is an acceptable practice?

>Also what if I came at you and said you only believe this because of two meme books, one from a writer I do respect, but whos monastery fell into the hands of a kiddy diddler after his death and then fell out of communion, but still in this terrible condition formed the modern tollhouses and muh russia theological pursuation, and one from another monastery that seemingly would love to persuade Orthodox Christians who were baptized in the name of the Trinity and accepted into the church through Chrismation at the command of rightly ruling bishops to commit a sacrilege.

I don't know what you are talking about. I'm only vaguely familiar with the whole debate about toll houses in the US. I'm in Europe, under Constantinople, and the doctrine of the toll houses is official teaching that's even included in catechesis, and, again, everyone agrees that it is the teaching of the Church. 8chan and leddit are literally the only places where I see this doctrine becoming controversial somehow, and this seems to be a problem solely in America. Russians and Greeks do not consider this doctrine controversial at all.

>How many of these have you discovered on your own in your experiences in the church? How many of these are relying on being provided to you from based athonite monks

My own priest has given me some examples, but there's a good book on the subject that compiles pretty much every relevant liturgical text.

It's a doctrine that only comes in passing, and that is not necessary to believe for one's salvation, but it is nonetheless the only, and true, teaching of the Orthodox Church on the subject of what happens at the hour of death.

>>534878

> It'd indeed be a theologoumenon if it weren't the sole teaching of the Orthodox tradition.

Nice meme

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2017/06/07/aerial-toll-houses-dogma-or-pious-belief/

>Not really, no.

This is how detached one is from reality. Every Church has its own set of liturgical texts and "month books" (or whatever its called in english) of prayers.

>Most bishops of the Russian, Greek, and Eastern European Churches will tell you that this is the official teaching of the Orthodox Church. This isn't a couple of misbehaving bishops here, but official doctrine.

And now you are being a false witness yet again. no matter how much you say, this will never become official doctrine and I never heared that majority of bishops would support this. This is a meme that you and Rose fans want to push with its retarded "tell a password (give a gold) to archont (demon)". But thank God that this has never been confirmed and this garbage remains as (degenerate) theologoumena.

>You have yet to address the scriptural evidence in the OP.

What scriptural evidence? You call that scriptural evidence? a several verses that you alter as you desire? Like parable about rich when God tells rich men that his material wealth will be in vain and you somehow suddenly turn it to support this retarded theory? Verse taken can support virtually anything. Like this:

>I have said ye are gods and all of you are sons of most High. (Psalm 82:6)

Taken out of context, I can Justify mormon doctrine that we are literal gods born by endlesscelestialsex as st. Joseph Smith (pbuh) said.

or your """wise""" conclusion here

>Both angels and demons play a role at our death: the angels carry us off to Abraham's bosom, but then who carry us to Hades? It can only be the demons, because the angels would not bring us there, and we evidently cannot reach our destination on our own.

What a retarded, idiotic statement. And whats more important, According to Church Fathers, Heaven and Hell are state of soul and not a literal boiling cauldron. You can read works of John Romanides. And Also, It is imporatant to note, that some Church Fathers DID understand it with literal fire, so there again, there are theologoumena and there are dogma, between which you lack any kind of skill to differentiate.

Or how about Luke 12:58, which you have turned from clear and normal statement to retarded mumbo-jumbo to support degenerate doctrine.

And the worst, most retarded of these teachings is to assume that demons have any kind of sovereignity. Its pathetic.

>Your only argument against the doctrine is that you don't like the way it sounds, I see.

No, my argument is that its garbage and it shall remain to be garbage

>>534888

I'll disregard your insults toward myself and, most importantly, toward Holy Tradition.

I will only ask one thing of you - please show that the saints, any of them in fact, portray a tradition other than that of the intermediate judgment of the soul after death, where the demons take the souls of the wicked and the angels take the souls of the elect, a doctrine more commonly known as the aerial toll houses. Show me that this is not the sole tradition of the Church, with proof, and I'll concede your point.

>>534892

I wait I see your word games now, ones that allow a tollhouseless tollhouse theory

>>534893

There are not literal toll houses in the air. But the demons, who inhabit the air below Heaven, try to stop us and collect back what is their own. This is the toll house doctrine… The demons are literally called the tax-collectors by countless Fathers.

>>534892

>Is this how far we've fallen? Do we just ignore West completely?

You're still not answering.

No pre-schism Latin saint disagrees with this doctrine, in fact several of them teach it.

>>534900

>No pre-schism Latin saint disagrees with this doctrine, in fact several of them teach it

This was never part of Western tradition. The only way you can argue otherwise is to blatantly twist the Latin fathers

>>534769

wtf I love orthodoxy now

>>534900

>There are not literal circles of heaven. But the archonts, who inhabit the space below Heavens, try to stop us unless we tell them a secret password. This is the gnostic doctrine…

P.S. read this and analyze it a bit

http://constans_wright.tripod.com/notolls.html

>>534905

No, its not about a purgatory

>>534804

I’m interested as to what you think about Fr. Seraphim Roses interpretation of them

>>534906

I never said that, anon

>>534904

St Gregory the Dialogist? St John Cassian? St Bede the Venerable? St Boniface of Credition? They all taught the doctrine very explicitly.

>>534906

Insulting this doctrine again and again doesn't make you right, you know.

Show me that this is not the sole teaching the Orthodox Church has ever had.

>The "Tollhouse Account" presents the gnostic concept that demons sit in judgment over souls, usurping Christ's place, and involves the legalistic notion that one's sins must be "balanced" by an equal number of good deeds (or extrameritous prayers of one's spiritual father) else he will not attain heaven.

Demons do not judge. The Lord alone judges. Demons are rather there to accusate the soul of having something that is theirs, and our guardian angel defends us. But the Lord alone judges.

>There are 20 such "tollbooths" at each of which a different kind of sin is judged by the demons.

That's a pure theological opinion, as the Fathers do not agree on the number of, or on the reality of, those toll houses.

>If an insufficient amount of good works is found for the soul… off to hell with it!

Rather, if we do indeed have something of the devil within us, they inherit our soul and drag us with them to Hell. But our guardian angel is there to prove that, even if we have minor sin in us, we have no intention to preserve it, and the proof is the testimony of godly works that we have done as belonging to the Church.

>And the un-Baptized non-Orthodox go straight to hell; they do not pass through the toll-houses.

False.

>This is found in the Theodora Vision, the foundational document for the tollhouse story.

The "foundational" document, that is, the earliest complete patristic work on the subject, is St Cyril of Alexandria's "Homily on the Departure of the Soul, Homily 13".

With such a dishonest representation of the Holy Tradition, do you expect me to read the rest?

>>534876

>pope claims infallibility because beder wuz da fursd bobe :DDD

>saint "bishop of rome" peter got btfo in the council of jerusalem

This is your brain on papism.

>>534983

technically the Pope claimed infallibility for more reasons than that if i'm not mistaken?

i might be mistaken

i think the Pope didn't officially claim infallibility until the Italian revolutionary army and taken over the entire country and were at the gates of the vatican after storming Rome…

i think this is how the story went… i may need to brush up on my Christian history

papal infallibility was a medieval concept which was touched upon, but never really became official church doctrine until well after ultramontanism became very popular at least

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramontanism

>>534983

:DDD

Nice Gnostic heresy you got there ;DD

>>534788

Who did this

>>535010

rather that than "le gays are cool super bishop" tbh

>>534924

>Rather, if we do indeed have something of the devil within us, they inherit our soul and drag us with them to Hell.

You do realize that you can't have anything of the devil, right? Evil doesnt exist, but is merely deficiency of good. By saying this idiocy, you supported gnostic dualism. Congratulations on that.

Thank you /christian/ for this thread. I really appreciate it.

The 'toll houses' is something I've heard vaguely about regarding Eastern Christian sects but I don't always get a chance to think about it and study it thoroughly.

>>535033

Does sin exist?

If it does, then what is it? God separates the wheat from the chaff, the goats from the sheep. If evil doesn't really exist and everything is always good, then where does God put the treshold at "good enough"?

Also, you're calling many of our saints gnostic dualists here, because I am quite literally quoting their own understanding of the scriptures.

>>535063

>If it does, then what is it?

Non-participation in the form of good (namely, God)

>>535066

But that's gnostic dualism, anon. Everything is good, you can't not participate in what is good. You just participate to different degrees

>>535067

>But that's gnostic dualism, anon

No it isn't. Evil is closer to nothing than something, because it is the lack of good. The only way the devil can "own" evil is if evil is real (you can't own nothing), which would be dualism.

>>535069

>Evil is closer to nothing than something, because it is the lack of good. The only way the devil can "own" evil is if evil is real (you can't own nothing), which would be dualism.

If there can be such a lack of good that there is nothing at all, then there is again a dualism between good and "nothing", aka evil. If evil, as "nothing good", does not exist because of its nothingness, then we cannot sin because we cannot do nothing.

>>535073

>If there can be such a lack of good that there is nothing at all, then there is again a dualism between good and "nothing"

There is no duality because there is only one real thing

>If evil, as "nothing good", does not exist because of its nothingness, then we cannot sin because we cannot do nothing

We can reduce real things and at that to nothing.

>>535076

This is nonsensical reasonment. What's next, death isn't actually a thing because it's simply a lack of life?

I also find it interesting that all the criticism on this doctrine so far ITT have been about it not sounding right, and not about it not being the sole teaching of the Church. Because it is the sole teaching of the Church and always has been, but it doesn't sound right to you people so you don't like it. Does the Resurrection sound right to you?

>>535094

>Because it is the sole teaching of the Church and always has been

Except for the three hundred years at the beginning that actually matter and you haven't proven

>>535094

>equating the Resurrection, a core teaching that is a central theme and ultimation of the bible, with """"aerial tollhouses"""" that take verses willy-nilly outside of their context in both chapters and the bible itself

Just admit it, this is pagan heresy

>>535350

There are a few Orthodox churches that use a Western Liturgy in the style of Pope Gregory the Great, modified a little bit (removal of the filioque in the Credo, that sort of thing). That might be your best bet if you truly wished to convert to the EO church.

>>535350>>535350

Abbey of Tongerlo, Belgium. One of the worst secularist countries can house one of the most beatiful traditionalist masses. Quite a contradiction to be honest, and I love it.

>>535350

Attend Latin mass.

>>535243

Just for you, I'll write down all the parts where the Fathers mention the doctrine, up until a certain date.

Which date do you want? 313, since that's when Christianity became legal?

>>537052

>>535243

Either way, for up until 313:

From the Life of the Holy Apostle Philip (d. 71):

At that time a funeral procession and those that were carrying a dead man happened to pass by, and the people wishing to ridicule the apostle said, "If you resurrect this dead man, we shall all worship your God, together with Aristarchos!" But the saint, lifting his eyes towards Heaven, prayed a while, and then, turning to the dead man, called him by name in a calm voice: "Theophilos! Christ commands you: Arise and say whatever you wish without impediment!" Immediately, the dead man sat up on the bier and thanked the apostle, saying, "I thank you, O holy saint of God, that you have just delivered me from great evil; for some black and ugly ones [i.e., demons] were dragging me to throw me into disastrous Tartarus; which they would have accomplished, had you not come first and delivered me, the wrench!" This strange happening filled all with fear and awe, amazed that the saint knew even the name of the dead man, whom he had never seen before, and whom he raised up instantly. {The Great Synaxaristis of the Orthodox Church}

St. Justin Martyr the Philosopher (d. 166):

But Thou, Lord, do not remove Thine assistance from me; give heed to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword, and my only-begotten from the hand of the dog; save m from the lion's mouth. . . . [This was written] so that, when we arrive at the end of life, we may ask the same petition from God, who is able to turn away every shameless evil angel from taking our souls. {Dialogue with Tryphon}

From the Life of the Holy Martyr Eustratios (d. 296):

And now, O Master . . . my soul is troubled and full of anguish at its departure from this my wretched and defiled body. . . . Be gracious unto me, O Master, and let not my soul see the gloomy and dark gaze of the evil demons; but let Thy radiant and shining angels receive it. . . . When I am about to be judged, may not the hand of the prince of this world seize me in order to drag me, a sinner, down unto the depths of Hades; but do Thou stand by me, and be Thou unto me a Savior and Helper. {The Great Horologion}

>>537055

>toll houses appear zero times

wow Im a #RoseMissal now

>(d. 71)

Sweaty, I . . .

>Earliest example and "earliest" example both lack language of judgement with demonic involvement, and last quote has three ellipsis and the language of judgement is barely connected to language of demons

I'm running out of usual smug responses

>Predicatable responses of, but muh tarstva just means angels and demons are involved at the hour of death, not that there is actual floating cabins and you actually hand over bags of gold to sky ethipians XD

Then when I say demons simply attack our souls at the end of our life as they do during it, but with more ferocity, then why do you guys feel the need to correct me and tell me that I need to believe they live in symbolic sky boxes which simultaneously do and don't exist, and that while the gold is not real I must believe that what looks like gold is kinda real kinda not, but not real or unreal, and if I don't believe in that then I hate the saints and don't believe in praying for those who have died, even though I believe in praying for those who are alive and being attacked by demons nearly the same way the departed are, with the difference being the severity of the attack?

>>537112

>pic

This I can appreciate

>>535013

I did. Who's asking?